Ibc

[Gizmo]

I don`t know where you get the impression I`m all knowing - all I ever do is offer an opinion and I always make certain that people know it`s an opinion and I`m not saying that I`m necessarily right. I never say that I`m right (well, not often) because in Magic it`s very hard for any one person to ever be right.
And I never said that aggressive decks couldn`t beat U/W.
I said SOMEBODY TOLD ME that aggressive decks couldn`t beat U/W.

Jackals deck:
I actually played a deck very similar to this last night, the only difference I can see is that you have Fires and he had Overabundance (to power monster Fireballs and Rages). I beat him quite comfortably because of the small number of threats he was playing, although I didn`t see Kavu Chameleon - I think he had Ghitu Fires in that slot, otherwise it was identical - oh, he also had Scorching Lava not Wax/Wane, and he kept killing my Pyre Zombie which was a real pain . He agreed with me that creatures weren`t working, which was why he had shifted his deck to the Overabundance model - he said he had found a G/R creature deck to be unworkable and he needed the damage from the Manabarbs half of Overabundance against the U/W builds who were generally unprepared for nasty enchantments.

Personally, I have to say, I would expect a U/W deck to be able to build a version capable of handling Fires. Exclude and Absorb have to be good enough to form the basis of a deck - the Chameleon`s chromatic ability isn`t going to be very important I wouldn`t think. I`m not sure because I`ve not built a U/W deck yet, but looking at the card pool I believe people who say you can get it to beat creature decks, especially if you can find room for a splash of black in there as well for something like Spite/Malice.

 

[Gizmo]

An early version of an idea

Trevagriff - The Search for Green Mana

4 Opt
4 Prohibit
3 Exclude
3 Repulse
4 Absorb
2 Spite (not much Malice being displayed)
4 Fact Or Fiction
2 Reviving Vapours
4 Rout

3 Treva`s Charm

3 Questing Pheldagriff

1 Coastal Tower
2 Elfhame Palace
3 Treva`s Ruins
3 Forest
5 Plains
10 Island

and latest remix of Crosis`s Agenda:

4 Opt
3 Undermine
3 Recoil
4 Fact Or Fiction
3 Lobotomy
3 Spite/Malice
4 Scorching Lava
3 Ghitu Fire
3 Urza`s Rage

1 Crosis, the angry man
1 Pyre Zombie
1 Yawgmoth`s Agenda

4 Star Compass

3 Crosis`s Catacombs
6 Swamp
7 Island
7 Mountain

 

[galtwish]

What about fast bears?
4 Carrion Screamers (or whatever the 1cc 1/1 black lifeloss critter is)
4 Nightscape Apprentice
4 Shivan Zombie
4 Hate Weaver
4 Skittish Kavu
2 Lava Zombie
3 Vicious Kavu
4 Manaical Rage
4 Sinister Strength
4 Scorching Lava
3 Urza's Rage
11 Swamp
9 Mountian

Or an agressive U/W/b deck?
4 Tidal Visionary
4 Stormscape Apprentice
4 Galina's Knight
4 Meddling Mage
4 Silver Drake
1 Glimmering Angel
4 Opt
4 Absorb
4 Spite/Malice
4 Raging River
4 Coastal Tower
2 Salt Marsh
9 Plains
8 Island

Any thoughts?

Erik

 

[The Magic Jackal]

I think we are going to agree to disagree
We are both too stubborn to give in.

I guess will have to wait until IBC tounies start up to see what the general public thinks.

I do think that creatue decks smash the "creatureless" deck. I also think fires can beat u/w consistantly, and the other main creatures decks (u/b control, and r/b) beat u/w even worse. In my opinion, one of the following 5 things can happen to IBC:

1) creature decks smash creatureless decks and u/w
2) creature decks lose to u/w which then lose to creatureless decks.
3) u/w smashes everything
4) everything is pretty much equal, and games are decided by skill, not match-up (as was MBC)
5) something wierd happens and both gizmo and I are wrong.

There have only been short periods of times in Magic history where creatureless decks (not counting type 1 or combo decks) are been the most dominant decks. It has never really occured in a block format, so that's why i seriously doubt that happening.


CT- Yes, u/w does have rout (aren't you smart?). If it didn't, it wouldn't be worth playing. So we have chameleon (the anti-u/w card) and rout (the anti-chameleon). Both decks with 4 of each. Mathematically, they cancel each other out. But some games I'll draw more chameleons than you draw routs, and i win. Other games, you'll draw more routs than i draw chameleons, and your stuck with basically a dead card. On the other hand, I have other creatures in my deck. For example, I can play a turn 3 jade leech. If i went first, you can't counter it. So, you have 7 answers to it (in gizmo's deck) 4 which kill it, rout, and 3 which stall it, repulse.

Analyzing the repulse- you can play it at the end of my 4th turn, then untap and counter duing my 5th turn. But, that's assuming I don't play something important on my 4th turn. Let's suppose I plat skizzik. You're forced to counter it. Now leech swings twice. During my 5th turn, I play a kickered titan, you're forced to counter. You can't successfully bounce the leech and counter what i play until turn 6. And my leech has already done 15 damage (10 if you play it right). This doesn't put you in a good situation. But that's assuming you have enough counters and I have enough creatures.

A better option would be playing rout. Then you can save your counters, but you can still remove my creatures. But then you've used a rout, and i have 4 chameleons, and you have 3 routs, Math is on my side.

Likewise, you can play meddling mage naming chameleon, and I can assualt, or rage, and move on with my life. I don't think mage is going to have that much of an impact in IBC and substantially less in type two, because it will be the most raged creature ever. Think about it. In type two you would have to plob the guy down turn two to have it be effective (I can play anything in my deck on turn 3), and then he's a sitting duck.

 

[Apollo]

Except this:

Trevagriff shall dominate!!! The hippos shall crush all!!!

Finally, my dream of a format dominated by the hippos shall be realized! The fools have laughed at my hippo decks for the last time!! Bwa-ha-ha!!

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Don't be mean.

I was simply pointing out that blue-white decks hardly roll over and die to creature-filled decks, including Fires.

The scenarios we chose to present are clearly biased in the favor of the presenter, which is to be expected.

But since you asked... Yes, as a matter of fact, I am.

 

[Gizmo]

Yikes, I turned up on Apprentice to find myself knee-deep in hippos. God that guy gives the B/R defensive deck a headache, if you don`t counter him he`s going to go all the way! Looking for answers, but not finding many of them - Void and Exclude are my best choices, neither of which I want to maindeck particularly.

My Griff deck is terrible, BTW, took about 2 games to work that out. But Griffs are big news at the moment, so you will be seeing them used in some sort of deck, maybe aggro but I doubt it as the main enemy of the aggro is U/W, not R/B - it goes better in the anti-creatureless decks than in the creature decks. Might have to go four colors and splash him into a B/U/W deck. Met a G/W/U aggro deck that was deisgned to beat R/B decks like mine, but I still managed to go 3-3 with him. I should have gone 4-2 but I missed a chance to Lobotomise his Griffs and he smashed me upside the head with them.

Trying to solve some mana problems with Crosis`s Agenda - it loses when it get screwed, wins otherwise.

4 Opt
4 Fact Or Fiction
4 Undermine
3 Recoil
3 Spite/Malice
2 Lobotomy
4 Scorching Lava
3 Ghitu Fire
3 Urza`s Rage
2 ??? (Addle, Prohibit, Exclude, Repulse, Void, Probe, Disrupt...)

1 Crosis, The Purger
1 Pyre Zombie
1 Yawmgoth`s Agenda

3 Urborg Volcano
4 Salt Marsh
2 Swamp
6 Mountain
10 Island

I had made the classic error - not enough Islands and counters. Now that I have corrected that mistake I`m ready to rock and roll!

And just to point out a flaw in Jackals 4 Chameleon vs 4 Rout argument.
1. The Rout deck will likely have FoF and Opt, so it has a better chance of seeing it`s Routs than you have of seeing your Chameleons. Not alwasy, obviusly, but more than 50/50, more like 70/30 at least. And that assumes that Rout is the only answer to a Chameleon on the board.
2. A Rout in hand is hardly a dead spell, it kills all creatures, not just Chameleons.
Chameleon is a good card, but I think to suggest it will virtually single-handedly bring down any deck playing with 8 counterspells is a little off, the Hippo is far scarier if you can get him into play.

Thinking Hobble for U/W decks, Treva`s Charm was crap. Cantrip pacifism has to be good for something, but you might need mana acceleration to use it and be able to counter on the same turn.

24 land
4 Star Compass
4 Fact Or Fiction
4 Opt
4 Absorb
3 Prohibit
4 Rout
3 Hobble
3 Spite/Malice
3 Exclude
2 Lobotomy
2 Dromar, The Banisher

 

[Gizmo]

Oh, and a brief historical note.

Jackal suggests creatureless decks have never been big in block constructed. I disagree, however, I`m going to immediately change that by saying I think the point isn`t than you are creatureless (I`m not creatureless for instance) but that you are creature-lite, and definitely not pursuing a creature-based strategy.
If that is the case then there have been a few examples, probably most notably CounterPhoenix in TSE.
Besides, I wouldn`t let what worked in the past influence how I looked at the future. Each block is different, and I still contend that there is only about a half dozen creatures that are notable in IBC:
Kavu Chameleon
Questing Pheldagriff
Pyre Zombie
Armoured Guardian
Voice Of Truth

Dominantly these are the few creatures able to fend off the HUGE amount of cheap, effective, or cantrip removal that is aiming for them.
Any other creature is asking for a good kicking, and shall recieve one.

 

[Istanbul]

(I think you mean Voice of All.)

Gizmo, for those two empty slots...how about Cave-In? It's a weenie-sweeper, and if cast at the right time, it makes both Rebels and Fires pack up and go home.

 

[Baskil]

Someone forgetting that we're talking about Block Constructed, eh, Istanbul?

 

[Istanbul]

No...didn't you see Cave-In in the Invasion spoiler? It's hidden really well...you have to look for it. It's kinda tucked between Tectonic Instability and Thunderscape Apprentice...

...my head hurts.

Okay, fine. How about Breath of Darigaaz?

 

[phantmjokr]

Here was my original working U/W/g deck...

3 Rout
4 Hobble
4 Glimmering Angel
4 Angel of Mercy
3 Armadillo Cloak
3 Teferi's Moat
3 Repulse
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Exclude
4 Absorb
2 Forest
4 Elfhame Palace
7 Plains
9 Island
4 Coastal Tower
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 4 Dismantling Blow
SB: 4 Prohibit
SB: 4 Gainsay

Note the Hobble "tech"! This functioned as any U/W deck. If you didn't beat me in the first 6 or so turns you weren't going to win...

I moved to this...

RushingCR
4 Rout
4 Elfhame Sanctuary
4 Glimmering Angel
4 Armadillo Cloak
3 Angel of Mercy
3 Teferi's Moat
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Rushing River
4 Exclude
4 Absorb
4 Forest
4 Plains
8 Island
3 Elfhame Palace
3 Coastal Tower
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 4 Dismantling Blow
SB: 4 Prohibit
SB: 4 Gainsay

This is probably better although it actually should run 4 of each of the tap lands anyway. Adding Elfhame Sanctuary does two things. It helps early to power out to the higher cc spells like FoF, Moat, Rout especially the instant variety. It also gives you a good chance to be the guy that doesn't deck himself as Evil Vasco showed. ;-)


Cloak can be a defensive spell. I can also turn the tide by casting it defensively and then returning it to one of my creatures with River. You might laugh at the lifegain elements but it's the element that is winning games.

You present the uncounterable Chameleon. Now I have many more ways to offset that like anything on my side cloaked. I can then play to reset at instant speed and have a chance to River my creature back to hand.

Against U/B bounce discard the only think you do is present one threat Glimmering and keep their sky empty and your hand full.

It basically owns most rush decks. I've lost one game in typical U/W fashion losing on turn 5 as I took a bad hand in...

Is it just me or are you folks seeing a lot of lopsided matches of crush or be crushed that are highly land dependant?

FoW

 

[Apollo]

Trevagrif isn't working? Crud!

Hmm... Must be your bad play. Otherwise, the hippo deck would smash all!

Mark my words, hippos will win tournaments... and then the fools who mocked me shall pay!

In case no one noticed, I've been trying to lighten the mood in here.

But that said, the hippos shall rule. If I were not the bird boy, I would most certainly be the hippo boy.

 

[Mars]

I played at the IBC Invasion-Only constructed tourney last night at Neutral Ground, NY, and mostly what I saw was UB and BR. Is THAT where this format is going? Good. Now I know what to design for to beat. Learn to hate the Recoil. It's just damn awesome. And I think you all should carefully inspect that post a few back by Phantmjokr. There is almost always 3 top decks, and if people want to play with the swamps and islands and mountains, then the forests and evil plains will look back and smile. Like this:

 

[Gizmo]

Flog that horse! Flog it!

Counter-Pyre
v1.789845684+

3 Prohibit
3 Exclude
4 Undermine

4 Fact or Fiction
3 Probe

3 Scorching Lava
4 Urza`s Rage
3 Recoil
2 Terminate
2 Void

2 Pyre Zombie
2 Yawgmoth`s Agenda

3 Urborg Volcano
4 Salt Marsh
2 Swamp
6 Mountain
10 Island

SB:
1 Pyre Zombie
1 Void
2 Disrupt
4 Gainsay
3 Rushing Wiver
2 Lobotomy
2 Cremate

Really solid decktype, the card mix is possibly a little off - need to evaluate strength of Exclude and Addle, and decide if I prefer three Probe or Void. The rest is pretty much great and dead certain to stay in the deck. If this is the best deck in the field (which sources seem to suggest it is) then the build will probably move a little away from it`s removal base towards more disruption.

 

[Captain Caveman]

Based on opinion........

what are the 3 best decks in the field? In other words, what are the decks to beat? Can we establish a decklist for
each of these 3 decks?

This may seem like a stupid request but I'd like to know what everyone thinks the majority of field will look like.

Thanks,
Caveman

 

[Mars]

"Aggro decks- stuff like fires where they rush you with creatures. The best combinations are probably r/g and u/b(fast flyers) or u/w (fast flyers). It gives the "creatureless" decks a big problem. The constant onslaught of creatures just demolishes them. u/b flyers can be really leathal, since it can play turn one creature, sinister strength it, and then proceed to lower life right into undermine range. The Creatureless decks usually roll over and die if the aggro deck is made right and played right.

Mid level (aggrocontrol)- less controling than aggro, less aggressive than aggro (hence, midlevel). It can switch into both modes, depending on what deck it's playing. Control against aggro, and aggro against creatureless. The best builds are r/b and u/b. R/b has a lot of good removal and discard, and some very good creatures to take out the opponent. u/b has discard and counters, and some good creatures.

"Creatureless"- These are the decks that use spells instead of creatures. u/b/r, u/b/w, domain, and u/w/g are common builds. Although not all that consistant, it turns many cards in a midlevel deck into dead cards. These seem to be the most popular on the mailing lists, although personally, I think midlevel is the way to go.

Take care,
The Magic Jackal"

Mars again. I think the format is still wide open. As far as the best three, um, that's a good but tough question. I'd say BRu, UBr, and Uwg, with Domain being a strong 2nd tier. The 2 cards that will most define the metagame seem to be Urza's Rage and Yawgmoth's Agenda, IMO. Meddling Mage naming either one will help alot. I don't see a Misdirection/Deflection card out there, do you, to take on Rage? Then there's Ghitu Fire and Fact or Fiction and Rushing River. Decks with Questing Pheldagriff are coming on strong, but let's face it, it's a creature. I dunno. It seems WotC got what it wanted => balancing the colors. Seems like a great big "fortunate/unfortunate pairings" contest more than usual. I'm getting a bit tired of the format, actually, and will probably be switching over to Type Two soon to prepare for Regionals, a mere two months away.

 

[Gizmo]

Personally I`ve yet to meet an IBC deck fast enough to get past the fact that U/B/R can field 8 2nd turn removal spells. Sinister Strength is just giving advantage away, so is Armadillo Cloak. It`s possible that an aggro deck could hold serve iif it moved fast enough, but I would be amazed if it could consistently break the serve of u/b/r control with it`s bank of 2nd turn control spells - Prohibit, Terminate, Lava.

The aggro deck which caused me greatest concern ran Panthers to save it`s monsters. When two Panthers got involved and started helping each other out I was left to desperately dig up a Void.

I think the best decks are probably going to be:
u/b/r
u/b/w (I don`t like it, but I`m told it`s good against u/b/r)
and some form of aggro deck, either U/B with maindeck Disrupts and Confounds, or G/W with Panthers and boost spells to ignore the removal. Possibly a G/R deck that uses Overabundance as a manabarbs.

But like I said in my starcity article - u/b/r holds all the cards and can move in any direction to counter the metagame.

 

[galtwish]

EDITED 2/22


Frank Gilson's deck on Mindripper seemed interesting. Here's how I would build it:
4 Tidal (merfolk)
4 Galina's Knight
4 Crimson Acolyte
4 Meddling Mage
2 Armored Guardian
3 Silver Drake
4 Orim's Chant
4 Disrupt
4 Prohibit
4 Opt
4 Coastal Tower
10 Plains
9 Islands

Possibly adding Black for Stormscape Apprentice, Probe, Lobotomy, and/or Addle.

But i think an agressive Land Destruction deck might do well against the slow B/R/u powerhouse. Between CIP tapped lands and Lairs, the 20+ land destruction deck migh just work:

4 Quirion Elves
2 Quirion Explorer
4 Thornscape Apprentice
2 Fleetfoot Panther
4 Benalish Emisarry
4 Orim's Chant
4 Pain/Suffering
4 Implode
4 Frenzied Tilling
1 Rith, the Terminate target or Urza's Rage
3 Global Ruin
4 Shivan Oasis
4 Elfhame Palace
3 Plains
6 Mountian
7 Forest

Time Walk (Orim's Chant) is a big threat to B/R/u, as it can only take so much beatdown, and the first deck has the ability to cast the Chant and back it up with counter power. The kicker on Chant is rarely paid, usually in "rogue"(creature) matches where Shifting Skies can also provide a huge boost. The second deck can add Jade Leeches, Scorching Lava/Canopy Surge, Breath of Darigaaz, and Hull Breaches to round out it's complement. Just thowing out ideas here, feel free to comment.

Or just try to beat, beat, beat:

4 Sunscape Apprentice
4 Llanowar Elite
4 Crimson Acolyte
4 Thornscape Apprentice
4 Llanowar Knight
3 Noble Panther
3 Fleetfoot Panther
4 Explosive Growth
4 Gaea's Might
4 Wax/Wane
4 Elfhame Palace
8 Plains
10 Forest

Erik

 

[Gizmo]

Orim`s Chant isn`t really a threat as all the removal is instant speed so they can respond to the Chant 9 times out of 10.

My IBC deck went 4-0 vs T2 Rebels tonight, and 3-1 vs T2 B/U discard.