Ibc

[Gizmo]

This is my current idea, totally new and relatively untested.

4 Scorching Lava (vgood)
4 Ghitu Fire
3 Urza`s Rage

2 Pyre Zombie
2 Void (not so hot, down from 3)

2 Yawgmoth`s Agenda

2 Disrupt
4 Fact Or Fiction

4 Recoil
3 Lobotomy
3 Spite/Malice

4 Star Compass/Nightscape Familiar

1 Salt Marsh
3 Crosis`s Catacombs
6 Swamp
6 Island
7 Mountain

I was totally creatureless for a while and just wrecked 90% of people who ended the game holding like 4 Exclude/Repulse/Rout etc. Pyres have gone in, but might not stay and the Familiars are very good but just draw their creature removal so Compass is prolly better here.
Only just decided to drop 4 Opt out, might put them back in and lose the Disrupts and a land or two.

 

[Baskil]

Love the idea, Giz.



The team I'm on is working on a similar deck, except we use Undermines as further burn. I've found that it works very well, especially with all of the U/B tempo decks out there.

I would probably put the Opts back in. I've done some considerable testing with Opt, and I think having 4 is a good thing. I would still run the Disrupts in the SB though, since they're quite a foil against FoF.

 

[sole specter]

i have seen that typ of deck alot but WUB if you do that you can put in dromar and the guy that wraths the uw counter plaug spitter and you can splash red for rage

 

[sole specter]

it just opens alot of opt's

well there's my 2 cens

 

[Mars]

...young deck designer I know who's been playtesting a lot, and his response was as follows:

"It's so-so. I'm not a big fan of any deck that relies on burning the opponent
to deck. It doesn't seem to have enough control/removal to stop most decks.
U/b should just plop down a rat and have it serve up the game. Actually, it
doesn't have any counterspells, which should make it pretty easy for your
opponent to win the counterspell war. Not tournament worthy yet. "

Then again, I don't what he's talking about re removal since you seem to have quite a bit here. I would put in 4 Repulse, somewhere, and yah the opts are a good idea as is rats, but then we come down to the endless question....OK, then WHAT do we take out?

 

[Gizmo]

I thought I was kind of heavy on removal. Esp seeing as I`ve never had a creature last longer than a turn unless I wanted it to.And I have 5 counterspells. And Lobomoty is 200% better than counterspells anyway, so is Void naming'4' or '3'.

And Pyre Zombie is a perfectly solid kill mechanism.

From what I`m seeing on Apprentice the general consensus is that in IBC the creatures are so much worse than the spells that they are pretty much not worth playing with.

 

[Mars]

Yup, I see what you mean. To which I'd like to add:

"Going creatureless," if that is indeed the trend, will make cards like Terminate, Exclude, and Repulse somewhat impotent, to say the least. Terferi's Moat, too. Well, except when it faces Pyre Zombie, but Zombie can still do it's overcosted Hammer of Bogardan ping you for 2 each turn for 9 friggin mana thing.

SRB will be present, and stronger than it's ever been since the days when Fireblast was young. That's ONE way to go creatureless. Another is to go UB with Terminate (UBr), Recoil, Repulse, Exclude, Recoil, Lobotomy....oops, I guess the only two of those that mean anything are Recoil and Lobotomy, am I right?

I expect to see Fires, if only for it's consistancy.

I expect to see UW Flyers, if only for evasion.

I expect to see CounterRout, but I expect as usual most netdeckers haven't a clue how to play with the Islands and evil Plains.

I expect, POST-Planeshift, that Red and Black will be strongest, Blue average, and Green and White somewhat weak.

Therefore a deck like yours, or a UB build, may be strongest.

If only Global Ruin were a good card, but it's not.

Just my two cents.

 

[The Magic Jackal]

Mars- I think you misunderstood what I said when I said "It doesn't seem to have enough control/removal to stop most decks." I didn't mean that it doesn't have enough removal, which it does, but the removal just isn't strong enough.

Let's say I'm playing fires and I lay a turn two utopia tree. You scorch it. Ok. Turn 3 I play fires. Noting you can do. Next turn I play jade leech and you recoil (assuming you got all 3 colored land by turn 3, which isn't highly likely). On your turn you lobotomy and see the leech, a shivan wurm and a kavu chameleon. You pick the chameleon. Ouch. I topdeck a land keep it in my hand, and drop the leech. serve for 5. You have an urza's rage in your hand, but it doesn't kill the leech, too bad. That leech will probably end the game for you, but let's assume that you get another rage, or another scorching lava and you kill it. I draw a kavu titan, play it with kicker and attack, your at ten. We're both pretty low on cards at this point, and you really don't want to be in topdecking mode vs. fires- it's not something that your going to win, because I assure you that they can pull more monsters than you can handle. I'll got the kavu on the table, 5 mana, and a couple cards in my hand, one being a wurm. You have about 5 mana, probably still looking for the 3rd color, relizing that If i play the wurm, your going to be at 1. Now you really wish you had counterspells (undermine) to stop the wurm. So I drop the wurm, attack, sac the fires, and bring you down to 1. You might have a ghitu fires in your hand or something, but you can't find 10 mana to kill the wurm with. So now I'm relying on topdecking a assualt, rage, or fires to finish you off with. Hey, a quirion elf would even work.

My point being not that you don't have enough control, just that it's not powerful enough. It would work fine against b/u, but just straight r/b kills that good enough. If you were insisiting on playing r/u/b I'd try something like this.


4 terminate
4 ghitu fires
4 undermine
4 spite /malice
4 recoil
4 fact or fiction
2 agenda
4 exclude
3 void
3 star compass
3 catacombs
5 mountains
8 islands
8 swamp


I wouldn't play and IBC deck without creatures though, It's suicide. The three decks I expect to see doing the best in IBC as of now are r/g fires, u/b control, and r/b.

Jordan Volz

 

[Gizmo]

Jackal - I think that you are giving a very biased summation of that matchup.

Are my Ghtu Fires not good enough?
Do you kill me so fast my Fact Or Fiction doesn`t give me removal?
Do I not see Void?
Or Spite/Malice?
Do I not accelerate my mana with Compass?

I don`t know how the match would go, but I know it would only go the way you say it would in a few games, where I got a bad hand and you got a good hand. you might well beat my deck, but not as conclusively as you suggested.

Yes, in this matchup my use of Scorching Lava is poor. But Terminate is even worse in this IBC field of creature-lite decks, playing creatures is like conceding the match. Playing spells that only kill creatures is like discarding a card fromn your hand.

The only creatures I have seen have been:
Nightscape Familiar
Vodalian Zombie
Armoured Guardian
Pyre Zombie

Nobody is using creatures, because the second generation of decks are stomping the first generation (people trying to be aggro). Yawgmoth`s Agenda control decks are everywhere.

 

[The Magic Jackal]

LOL, I really have a hard time trying to imagine IBC with no creatures. It's just so far fetched. No fires? That's a stretch. No doomsday specter? No chameleon? No meddling mage ("the creature that will change type two"- Gizmo). I don't think so. You can play your creaturesless decks, I'm not going to tell you how to play the game. I'll just be over here w/ my creatures and we'll have a jolly good time. You can stick with you spells over there, and just try to hold back my assualt until you can rage me twice with kicker. I dare you.

 

[Mars]

So let me see if I understand what you're saying Dave,

Your Yawgmoth's Agenda deck will wreck havoc with the following cards?........

Pyre Zombie, Blazing Spectre, the ever-Popular Elvish Champion, Kavu Chameleon, Jade Leech, Skizzik, Tahngarth, Blurred Mongoose, Glimmering Angel, Meddling Mage, Silver Drake, Phyrexian Scuta, Voice of All, Armored Guardian, Galina's Knight, Vodalian Zombie, Lord of the Undead, Doomsday Spectre, Zanam Djinn, Waterspout Djinn, Shivan Wurm, Volcano Imp, Lava Zombie, Ravenous Rats, Phyrexian Infiltrator, Bone Spear (j/k), Kavu Titan, Gaea's Herald, Obsidian Acolyte, Crimson Acolyte, Llanowar Knight, Horned Kavu, Sparkcaster, and two Unholy Strengths on a Fallen Angel (j/k....sorry...fond memories)?

Is that right?

Well, if that's the 2nd generation....I can't wait for the third!

 

[The Magic Jackal]

The 3rd generation decks be the 1st generation creature decks that people realize are better than the 2nd generation "creatureless" decks. Once they realize they are dumbasses, they'll go back to creatures.

 

[phantmjokr]

It's probably a good deck in the same Cand!man vein...meaning most folks will have trouble winning with it. ;-)

I'll probably build it and toss it in the test folder. We'll see. I think MM's deck is going to walk on it with 8 MD untargetables for you and he'll only present them one or two at a time and ride them. His deck looks like even MORE of a pile and keeps somehow winning.

I have no idea how my deck would do...but it's got the possibility of 24 plus MD life gain(and lifegain is actually winning the matches much to everyone's surprise)...although you would leave me with a lot of dead cards. I can again present an untargetable threat and SB vs headshots and more.

I don't know about SF's deck. I can't picture that matchup at all...

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Okay, here's what I've been up to.

I've played some games against a BR Blazing Specter, Pyre Zombie, Rage, etc deck... and against an all-out creatureless "May-I?" deck.

Versus the BR deck, the games are very close, but the Scorching Lava is MVP against those Zombies.

Your own Zombies, of course, can take out Specters, and the Ghitu Fire and Urza's Rage can back you up quite nicely when hand size is too low (or cards too valuable) to allow a Specter hit.

The kill was not much use in this case, except for when Tahngarth or Skizzik popped out...whereupon I was grateful to have it.

Due to misplays, I lost more games than I should have (kept forgetting to get my Pyre Zombie back). I blame this on the fact that I haven't been playing a lot lately, and I expect it to improve markedly.

The other deck was a maddening Ub permission deck, whose apparent aim was to make you concede from boredom. Undermine and Yawgmoth's Agenda appeared to be the actual kill method. If there was a creature, it never got played (I wasn't able to see the deck, and Lobotomy never resolved in any game.

I was able to win all of the games we played in this matchup, as once the opponent had Yawgmoth's Agenda he was at 12 life or less, and Ghitu Fires became "must-counter" spells (Fact or Fiction had usually already put Urza's Rage into my hand) allowing me to force my own Agenda (haw-haw).

Able to play land from my graveyard, kicking an Urza's Rage was imminent.

Also, when the opponent is under Agenda, it can be very easy to force a Lobotomy through and wipe out their counters. Getting rid of Undermines this way is especially nice.

In the games where he recoiled the Agenda (instead of the Star Compass) I often had land in my hand to discard, and was able to replay the Agenda soon afterward.

These were some long games.

I have not tweaked the decklist at all, except to switch out the Compasses and Familiars.

As can be expected, the Compasses are better against the BR deck, and the Familiars are better against the permission deck. Just the same, I'd go with the Compasses, as they are rarely totally useless, whereas the Familiars can be when facing burn and elimination.

In neither matchup was Void especially useful.

Disrupt was marginally useful early game, and served as a Whispers of the Muse under the dual-Agenda battles (twice, in most cases).

Fact or Fiction is essential against the permission deck, and very good against the BR deck.

I'd play around with the Lobotomy / Spite/Malice / Pyre Zombie numbers, and consider relegating Void to the sideboard if you keep it at all.

That's a lot of typing for just a couple of matchups.
I hope at least some of this is of some use...if not to Gizmo (who has certainly played more than I have by a hundredfold) then to anyone else who might be interested.

I'll try to play against some other decks this week, and maybe I'll even get around to trying out other configurations.

Later!

 

[Gizmo]

I seem to have touched a nerve with Jackal there, oo-err!
All I`m doing is reporting my results. I turned up on Apprentice with a u/b/r deck like the one abbove, but with Excludes and Terminates in.
3 test matches later I was back on IRC and asking "where are all the ****ing creatures gone from IBC?"
The reply was "they can`t beat U/W so nobody is using creatures". The deck above has changed from what I originally was playing. If creatures DO exist you swap back to run Excludes and Familiars, maybe even the Crosis kill if it`s G/R not R/B as Crosis is only really weak vs Terminates.

I`ve never even seen Jackal`s deck so I can`t comment on it.

 

[The Magic Jackal]

Creatures can't beat u/w? I have seemed to have forgotten about some good cards. Kavu chameleon seems pretty good against moat. But if you say so. Who am I to question Gizmo? Pre-Planeshift we have wax/wane to take care of the moat, and rout was really the only card that scared us. Post-Planeshift we get hull breech, and gaea's herald, both of which smash u/w. U/W, on the otherhand, gets orim's chant. Oh no, I'll have to wait to kill you w/ urza's rage for another turn. But I'm obviously wrong here Gizmo, because you are the all knowning on the cpa boards. Creatures suck big time, spells are much better. Why would I want to kill my opponent quickly, when I can just wait to kill him on turn 13 at the earliest? Why would I want to play doomsday specter (which flies over moat) when I can have scorching lava? Who needs creatures? They suck. What the hell have we been thinking for the past 7 years? Using creatures, bah! That's for losers. Creatures are weak and die easily, not like our spells.

If I were going to nuetral ground Tuesday and playing IBC (sin Planeshift) this is what I would play.

Creatures suck
4 utopie tree
4 quirion elves
4 kavu titan
3 assault/battery
3 wax/wane
4 urza's rage
4 fires of yavimaya
3 Jade leech
4 skizzik
4 kavu chameleon
4 shivan oasis
10 Forest
7 Mountain
3 Plains

That's a nice little pile of 60 cards. But it sucks, because it has creatures. Sideboard you ask?

1 wax/wane
4 scorching lava
4 tangle
3 canopy surge
3 overabundance

This deck sucks though, because it has creatues. Don't play it, I beg you. We wouldn't want you to look stupid playing "1st generation" decks would we?

 

[Istanbul]

Question:
Ivory Mask gets sideboarded in.
You....


...lose?

 

[Mars]

And Jackal was talking about IBC, not Type 2

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Uhm, Rout?

You: "Ha ha! I change my Kavu Chameleon to blue and attack with it and these two flyers!"

Me: "Heck with that, I'll play Rout as an instant."

You: *Fume* "Done."

Me: "My turn. Untap, kick a Dismantling Blow on your Fires."

You: "Ha! I'll sac it... oh, crap, you killed all my creatures..."

Me: "I draw two cards..." *snicker* as I admire my new Maddling Mage and Fact or Fiction. "Meddling Mage, naming Kavu Chameleon."

You: "Can I go?"

Me: "Sure, I'm done."

You: "Skizzik!"

Me: "Settle down, Skippy... Absorb. Thanks for the life."

You: *fume*

...

I think W/U can handle creatures quite nicely...

 

[Spiderman]

This seems to be degenerating into personal name-calling...

Why not settle it by playing each other over Apprentice? If you guys can't get together for that, why not proxy up each other's decks and play against it and report back the results or something? Let's get some hard data out there to back up the opinions...