Good creatures again (this time with actual list)

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by Oversoul, Oct 29, 2004.

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  1. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Okay, I managed to organize my list from the other thread, so I'm posting it. It's not 277 cards right now. Interestingly enough, I was able to come up with a lot of green creatures. Red is a bit behind the other colors. The one that surprised me the most: the artifacts. I must have really neglected that category. Gold is small, but that is to be expected.

    Now that people can physically see my list, they can better tell what I've left out. If you think that something not on the list deserves to be there, please post it here.

    You could also give me suggestions for what to cut, although I'm not quite to that point yet. Thanks in advance.

    White: 47
    Academy Rector
    Akroma, Angel of Wrath
    Auriok Salvagers
    Avenging Angel
    Benalish Knight
    Blinding Angel
    Defender en-Vec
    Defender of Law
    Eternal Dragon
    Exalted Angel
    False Prophet
    Knight of Dawn
    Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
    Mageta the Lion
    Master Decoy
    Monk Realist
    Mother of Runes
    Order of Leitbur
    Order of the White Shield
    Paladin en-Vec
    Pristine Angel
    Radiant's Dragoons
    Ramosian Sergeant
    Reya Dawnbringer
    Savannah Lions
    Serra Angel
    Serra Avatar
    Shaman en-Kor
    Silver Knight
    Soltari Champion
    Soltari Monk
    Soltari Priest
    Soltari Visionary
    Soul Warden
    Suntail Hawk
    Talon Sliver
    Tireless Tribe
    Voice of All
    Wall of Glare
    Warrior en-Kor
    Weathered Wayfarer
    Welkin Hawk
    White Knight

    Blue: 40
    Arcanis the Omnipotent
    Cloud of Faeries
    Ertai, Wizard Adept
    Flying Men
    Glacial Wall
    Gilded Drake
    Merfolk Looter
    Metathran Elite
    Old Man of the Sea
    Peregrine Drake
    Rainbow Efreet
    Raven Familiar
    Raven Guild Master
    Rayne, Academy Chancellor
    River Merfolk
    Rootwater Thief
    Serendib Efreet
    Spiketail Hatchling
    Temporal Adept
    Thieving Magpie
    Time Elemental
    Tradewind Rider
    Trinket Mage
    Vedalken Archmage
    Vesuvan Doppelganger
    Volrath's Shapeshifter
    Wall of Souls
    Waterfront Bouncer
    Winged Sliver

    Black: 46
    Abyssal Gatekeeper
    Avatar of Woe
    Black Knight
    Bone Shredder
    Braids, Cabal Minion
    Crypt Rats
    Dauthi Marauder
    Dauthi Slayer
    Dauthi Warlord
    Disciple of the Vault
    Erg Raiders
    Flesh Reaver
    Fog of Gnats
    Guardian Beast
    Hidden Horror
    Highway Robber
    Hypnotic Specter
    Juzam Djinn
    Kjeldoran Dead
    Knight of Stromgald
    Lurking Evil
    Nantuko Husk
    Nantuko Shade
    Nether Spirit
    Order of the Ebon Hand
    Phyrexian Ghoul
    Phyrexian Negator
    Phyrexian Plaguelord
    Phyrexian Scuta
    Plague Spitter
    Priest of Gix
    Ravenous Rats
    Rotlung Reanimator
    Skittering Horror
    Skittering Skirge
    Sleeper Agent
    Spined Fluke
    Spirit of the Night
    Thrashing Wumpus
    Thrull Surgeon
    Visara the Dreadful
    Withered Wretch

    Red: 43
    Ali from Cairo
    Ancient Hydra
    Avalanche Riders
    Avatar of Fury
    Balduvian Horde
    Ball Lightning
    Blistering Firecat
    Bloodshot Cyclops
    Covetous Dragon
    Crater Hellion
    Defender of Chaos
    Flametongue Kavu
    Goblin Cadets
    Goblin Lackey
    Goblin Piledriver
    Goblin Recruiter
    Goblin Ringleader
    Goblin Warchief
    Goblin Welder
    Gorilla Shaman
    Grim Lavamancer
    Jackal Pup
    Keldon Champion
    Kird Ape
    Lightning Dragon
    Mogg Fanatic
    Mogg Flunkies
    Rathi Dragon
    Roc of Kher Ridges
    Rorix Bladewing
    Shard Phoenix
    Shivan Dragon
    Shivan Hellkite
    Siege-Gang Commander
    Squee, Goblin Nabob
    Varchild's War-Riders
    Worldgorger Dragon

    Green: 65
    Argothian Enchantress
    Argothian Wurm
    Arrogant Wurm
    Avatar of Might
    Basking Rootwalla
    Battlefield Scrounger
    Birds of Paradise
    Caller of the Claw
    Deranged Hermit
    Druid Lyrist
    Elvish Lyrist
    Elvish Piper
    Elvish Spirit Guide
    Endless Wurm
    Erhnam Djinn
    Eternal Witness
    Forgotten Ancient
    Fyndhorn Elves
    Ghazban Ogre
    Harvest Wurm
    Hermit Druid
    Killer Bees
    Krosan Tusker
    Llanowar Elves
    Muscle Sliver
    Priest of Titania
    Quirion Dryad
    Quirion Elves
    Quirion Ranger
    Ravenous Baloth
    River Boa
    Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
    Sakura-Tribe Elder
    Simian Grunts
    Spike Feeder
    Spike Weaver
    Spore Frog
    Symbiotic Wurm
    Taunting Elf
    Thorn Elemental
    Timberwatch Elf
    Tinder Wall
    Uktabi Orangutan
    Verdant Force
    Verduran Enchantress
    Vine Dryad
    Viridian Shaman
    Viridian Zealot
    Wall of Blossoms
    Wall of Roots
    Weatherseed Treefolk
    Wild Dogs
    Wild Mongrel
    Wirewood Channeler
    Wirewood Herald
    Wirewood Hivemaster
    Xantid Swarm
    Yavimaya Elder
    Yavimaya Enchantress

    Gold: 29
    Anurid Brushhopper
    Cavern Harpy
    Crosis, the Purger
    Crystalline Sliver
    Darigaaz, the Igniter
    Dromar, the Banisher
    Fleetfoot Panther
    Frenetic Efreet
    Gaea's Skyfolk
    Hibernation Sliver
    Iridescent Angel
    Jungle Barrier
    Lightning Angel
    Meddling Mage
    Mystic Enforcer
    Mystic Snake
    Nicol Bolas
    Noble Panther
    Phantom Nishoba
    Rith, the Awakener
    Shadowmage Infiltrator
    Shivan Wurm
    Sliver Queen
    Treva, the Renewer
    Victual Sliver

    Artifact: 26
    Arcbound Ravager
    Bosh, Iron Golem
    Bottle Gnomes
    Darksteel Colossus
    Junk Diver
    Karn, Silver Golem
    Mindless Automaton
    Myr Enforcer
    Myr Retriever
    Phyrexian Colossus
    Phyrexian Dreadnought
    Phyrexian Walker
    Platinum Angel
    Razormane Masticore
    Shield Sphere
    Solemn Simulacrum
    Sundering Titan
    Thran Golem
    Ticking Gnomes

    Oh, I split them up by color manually. My method was to go through the list on MS Word and label each creature with a number of 1-7 that would correspond to a category, then sort the list. It is quite likely that I made an error of some sort. If you catch it, or have some means of organizing this list which is more efficient than my horrible method and could reorganize them for me, that would be appreciated.
  2. Reverend Love New Member

    The Invasion dragons are some good Gold fatties.
  3. DÛke Memento Mori

    - Abyssal Gatekeeper
    - Apprentice Necromancer
    - Knight of Dusk
    - Minion of the Wastes
    - Sleeper Agent
    - Spined Fluke
    - Spirit of the Night

    + Ravenous Rats
    + Skittering Skirge

    Not sure what these do and/or if they should be in the list:
    ? Slinking Skirge
    ? Dauthi Warlord
    ? Disciple of the Vault
    ? Visara the Dreadful
    ? Order of the Ebon Hand
    ? Nantuko Husk
    ? Knight of Stromgald
  4. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Actually, I'd get rid of Initiates of the Ebon Hand way before I'd lose Abyssal Gatekeeper.

    And you're missing Glacial Wall in blue. For shame...
  5. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Chaos Turtle: Hmm, I don't recall ever using Glacial Wall. Isn't it just a plain old blocker with no abilities? Oh well, I'm adding it for now.

    DÛke: I like some of your additions, but subtracting Apprentice Necromancer, Abyssal Gatekeeper, and Spirit of the Night go against my experience with those guys. I'll have to get back to you on all of this...

    RL: I hate those dragons, but a friend did build decks based around each of them back in the day, and they were kinda cool. Also, there's a shortage of good gold creatures. They're all added.
  6. DÛke Memento Mori

    See, I can understand Abyssal Gatekeeper; you can also convince me in regards to Spirit of the Night. But...Apprentice Necromancer?...
  7. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Well, this wasn't my sole reason for considering Spirit of the Night, but I'd like to point out this deck which ran Spirit of the Night and to a great degree of success.

    Now on Apprentice Necromancer...

    What are you basing your misgivings on (I do think that they are very reasonable misgivings too, but I just want to be sure I fully understand you)? Do you consider Shallow Grave to not be a great effect, or is it the creature form, which requires the use of another mana and a turn to lose summoning sickness?

    Anyway, I'm subtracting Minion of the Wastes and Knight of Dusk right now. They aren't as strong as the others and I know that they would be among the first to go.

    Sleeper Agent has a unique effect that is quite popular in casual play, although I don't use it. I am unsure as to what to do about it. I am inclined to agree with you and so that makes two of us. Anyone in defense of The Sleeper Agent?

    Spined Fluke I should have brought up earlier, because it swings for five and regenerates, so I am not sure what you're talking about...

    Anyway, your suggestions have been helpful. Are you going to review the other colors as well, or just black?

    Since it hasn't been addressed, those creatures you put in the last category...

    Slinking Skirge-this spot was supposed to be Skittering Skirge, but I got the two mixed up. Thanks for pointing it out! He is SO off the list now...

    Dauthi Warlord-a cheap black shadow creature (1B for a */1) that gets bigger in power for each additional creature with shadow you have. This is really nice with the other shadow creatures.

    Disciple of the Vault-the annoying little guy that acts as a kill in Affinity decks. He lets you cause an opponent to lose a life whenever an artifact dies. I've been killed by him myself. His use in Affinity has been pretty universal across multiple formats, so I figured the little guy deserved a spot on the list.

    Nantuko Husk-the exact same as Phyrexian Ghoul except in name and creature type.

    Order of the Ebon Hand/Knight of Stromgald-I don't know why you would question these. Surely you've played against them. I thought they were generally held to be among the best black creatures ever. They're BB for a 2/1 with protection from white, BB: for +1/+0 until end of turn, and B: for first strike until end of turn.

    She is like Avatar of Woe, except uglier and not as good. I don't remember how much she costs, but she has flying and taps to kill other creatures. A lot of players seem to think she is as good as or possibly better than Avatar of Woe. I do not like her so much myself, but I am not sure as to whether I should cut her or not...
  8. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I've built a deck with Sleeper Agent and while he's an interesting card, I wouldn't say he's a good card, certainly in leagues with most of the rest.

    A good gold card is Anurid Brushhopper.
  9. DÛke Memento Mori

    What I dislike and question about Apprentice Necromancer is the creature form, which I greatly despise. I can't see any deck actually depending on him, for anything, and if it does, I doubt the deck's power level and card selection altogether. The ability is fine, but the creature form on which it is tagged - no.

    Sleeper Agent is a good card, speaking from experience, though is not in part with the great cards on the list; he is a strictly conditional, casual card, at best.

    Disciple of the Vault...sigh. I don't think he'll be good in many formats beyond the current environment. I think his power will sink a little after everyone gets over Affinity, and the bland Mirrodin block at large. He can stay, but not too high on the list, in my opinion.

    Spined Fluke I have never played with, so I wouldn't know. Though from looking at it, any creature that has a casting cost of 3 or less that can challenge and outlive a Blastoderm is a worthy consideration. I guess he is fine, for now.

    Visara and Avatar of Woe are wrongfully compared. Avatar is a more conditional card while Visara is more straightforward, thus is better in straightforward control decks. Upon rethinking, Visara should stay, as she actually serves a different playing style than the Avatar. Both are great cards, to be sure. I myself perfer the Avatar because it is more complex and is way better in the right deck...

    Dauthi Warlord, Nantuko Husk, Order of the Ebon Hand, and Knight of Stromgald can stay. What's the creature type of the Nantuko Husk?

    As for Spirit of the Night...I guess it's a question of experience. I have Spirit of the Night, but only because it is a pretty card. There will always be this part of me that will doubt its serious playability.

    Now...Chaos Turtle brought up Initiates of the Ebon Hand. Explain it to me, Oversoul.

    As for the other colors, I will get to them in the order in which I like them. First I like to finish my criticism regarding Black though.

    What are your feelings about Lurking Evil? And does anyone even care about the existence of Sengir Vampire anymore? he really a great creature?
  10. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I think I'll just yield on Apprentice Necromancer. He probably would not have made it past further rounds of elimination were the list cut down more. Might as well take care of him now...

    I'll leave Sleeper Agent on for now, but it is definitely on the watch list, so to speak.

    Nantuko Husk is a zombie insect.

    Initiates of the Ebon Hand tend to be used with Drain Life and the like. I've actually seen them used for such purposes a lot, which was why I put them on the list.

    I had forgotten Lurking Evil. I haven't had all that much experience with the card. Players tend to shy away from the life loss, but on a whim, I'll replace Sengir Vampire with it. You're right, no one cares about the stupid Vampire anymore.

    Spidey, thanks for pointing out the the Brush dude. I guess I just forgot about him...
  11. DÛke Memento Mori

    Regarding the Initiates of the Ebon Hand, do you really want a creature to be counted as a great creature because it is great with another spell? This is the same reason why Rayne, Metathrane Elite, Academy Researchers, and Thran Golem will be off the list, even though they are some of my favorite cards of all time. I guess it depends on your opinion of what makes a good creature. To me, a great creature is a self-sufficient creature of sorts, unless it is a greatly dynamic creature, like Avatar of Woe. The creature's power/toughness to casting cost is also of great importance, though this is more unique to the creature and any other advantages it may offer. A creature that is playable because of another card is not really a playable creature. Of course you can argue that most creatures - even obviously great creatures like Morphling and Thrashing Wumpus - depend greatly on the totality of cards included in the deck; that's true, but their dynamic range is great; they are not restricted to 2 or 3 cards; they are not a part of a "combo," they are not a "key" to something greater than themselves - they are great in themselves. I have never seen or touched an Initiates of the Ebon Hand, but do you think it, as a self-sufficient creature, has a great dynamic?...
  12. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    You are right and Initiates is now torn screaming from the list. Also, Academy Researchers looked at me funny and is gone as well. Not sure about the others just now...
  13. DÛke Memento Mori

    How could you take off Academy Researchers but still consider the other Enchantment-Friendly creatures? Almost the same philosophy that aptly applies to the Researchers applies to the rest of the gang. They are all essentially mediocre creatures and are only great if enchanted, more so regarding Thran Golem than Rayne and Metathrane Elite...reason being that those particular blue creatures are not that bad: a 2/3 for 1UU is ok, and a 1/1 that makes your creatures a nightmare to target isn't that bad either...but a 3/3 for 5 that is nothing on its own? Give me a break...

    Don't get me wrong, I love the Golem, and the preconstructed deck in which he was included is one of my all time favorites, but honestly? He doesn't belong in this list...
  14. Rooser Thread Necromancer

    I didn't go through everything, but I can tell you that you left out Benalish Knight and Defender of Law in white, Defender of Chaos in red, and Noble Panter, Fleetfoot Panther and MYSTIC ENFORCER in gold.
  15. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    DÛke: Academy Researchers is fun, but the good creature enchantments are cheap like Rancor and Curiosity which you could simply cast anyway. In order to make Researchers good, you need an expensive creature enchantment, which is almost always a bad card. Metathran Elite gets the bonus regardless of what the enchantment is, which is more reliable IMO. Still, maybe I should remove the Elite...

    Thran Golem would be removed, but the artifact category has so few creatures in it right now that I might actually need to find more, rather than make cuts...
  16. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    Don't know if this is casual single player or casual MP. Either way, here are my largely biased additions for White Blue and Gold, minus all CoK cards

    Auriok Steelshaper
    Aven Cloudchaser/Cloudchaser Eagle
    Dawn Elemental
    Devout Witness
    Leonin Abunas
    Leonin Shikari
    Leonin Skyhunter
    Sunscape Familiar
    True Believer
    Whipgrass Entangler
    Windborn Muse

    Aboshan, Cephalid Emperor
    Barrin, Master Wizard
    Blind Seer
    Cephalid Constable
    Cloud Spirit
    Fog Bank
    Patron Wizard
    Polar Kraken (He has won more than a few games for me)
    Quicksilver Dragon
    Spiketail Drake
    Spindrift Drake
    Vodalian Illusionist
    Wizard Mentor
    Wormfang Drake

    Army Ants
    Blazing Specter
    Captain Sisay
    Charging Troll
    Cinder Shade
    Doomsday Specter
    Femeref Enchantress
    Fleetfoot Panther
    Goblin Legionaire
    Guiding Spirit
    Gweldlyn Di Cordi (spelling?)
    Horned Kavu
    Marsh Crocodile
    Mystic Enforcer
    Nobel Panther
    Pyre Zombie
    Questing Pheldagriff (I will accept no arguments, this is an excellent creature)
    Rasputin Dreamweaver
    Razorfin Hunter
    Selenia, Dark Angel
    Soltari Guerillas
    Vhati Il-Dal
    Viashino Dragon
    Voracious Cobra (very, very annoying)
  17. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Sorry for not addressing your post, Rooser. I had been pressed for time. I will add your suggestions and try to get to Mikeymike's later. He suggested a lot of additions, though I'm sure some of them would be extraneous additions (like Polar Kraken, which I have used successfully myself, but which is simply not among the best of blue's creatures).
  18. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus


    Ascendent Evincar
    Ashen Ghoul
    Balthor the Defiled
    Bone Dancer
    Cabal Interrogator
    Carrion Feeder
    Crypt Angel
    Desolation Angel
    Fallen Angel
    Graveborn Muse (Might be Zombie dependent, but it still is hella strong)
    Guiltfeeder (Maybe? He is usually pretty dangerous)
    Krovikan Horror
    Laquata's Champion
    Mesmeric Fiend
    Noxious Ghoul
    Royal Assassin
    Scion of Darkness (his cycling makes him great, b/c black gets him from GY to play very easily)
    Sengir Autocrat :)
    Sengir Vampire
    Twisted Abomination
    Undead Gladiator
    Wall of Souls
  19. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus


    Ancient Hydra
    Dragon Tyrant (Might not be 'great' in the classic sense, but I do know that whenever he is in play he is terrifying)
    Dragon Whelp (or the new one)
    Dwarven Miner
    Dwarven Pony
    Flametongue Kavu
    Fledgling Dragon
    Jeska, Warrior Adept (bias)
    Kamahl, Pit Fighter (huge bias)
    Kilnmouth Dragon
    Menacing Ogre (more bias, feel free to cut. Casual players, do not underestimate this guy!)
    Mogg Maniac
    Ogre Shaman
    Ruhk Egg
    Slith Firewalker
    Thunderscape Battlemage
    Two-Headed Dragon
    Viashino Cutt-throat
    Viashino Heretic (WAY underrated)
    Viashino Sandstalker
    Viashino Sandscout
    Ydwen Efreet
  20. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I don't have so many in the red category, so I'm going to get to that one and add some of your suggestions...

    Edit: Dwarven Pony? You misunderstand. I'm trying to make this thing completely serious. Okay, I'll get rid of Saprazzan Heir, just to avoid being too much of a hypocrite. :( It's just that she's so...
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