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Daggertooth
Guest
Well, I really question if anyone is actualy right. Too many bad things have happened because one side claims to have the absolute truth.
Off topic I got in a little argument with a web commic guys Journal. He totaly bashed islam. For some reason I felt compelled to defend it. Heres what was said.....
Heres my response
Daggertooth
Off topic I got in a little argument with a web commic guys Journal. He totaly bashed islam. For some reason I felt compelled to defend it. Heres what was said.....
by Ralph E hays
WHAT IT WOULD TAKE
I've gotten some flak for suggesting that, since nearly 100% of the terrorists who have attacked our nation and killed our people over the past 30 years have been Islamic Mideasterners, we ought to start expressing some suspicion about Islamic Mideasterners. God forbid that we should start noticing a pattern.
But, giving the devil his tuppence due, let's consider that the apologists who would rather frisk old ladies and toddlers at the airport than offend a Muslim might have a point or two. What justification is there, precisely, for being suspicious of an entire religion? (Not of course that this has stopped Ivy league professors and wetnosed trust-fund brats from railing accusations at Christendom..... but I digress.) We do acknowledge the existence of dangerous ideologies on a normal basis. Cults, for one....
What, specifically, would be the qualifying characteristics of a belief system that should earn it the suspicion I would heap upon it?
1: If it is spread, as dictated by its own holy doctrine, through coercion, violence and military conquest.
It is a basic fact that the religion of a conquering nation soon gains dominance as a consequence of that nation's spread, regardless of the religion espoused. Conquerors make it easier for their favored religion to set up its temples and proselytize abroad... and after all, why worship the deities of the losing team? But it's a whole different ball of wax when it is the religion itself that is the reason for the conquest, and when the subjugated people are put to conversion or death.
For all its past sins, Christianity's central doctrine of growth was *proselytizing*--- "Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature."
Islam, on the other hand, has the Jihad.
Jihad," the Muslim holy war against Christians and others, has raged for 1,300 years with bloody conquests in Europe dating from campaigns to convert the infidels in the 7th century to today's random acts of terrorism in the name of Allah....a legacy of brutality vastly more bloody and six times longer in duration than the atrocities of the crusades. beginning around 650 c.e. The Islamic Arabs (and later the Moors) occupied a number of the Mediterranean Islands, and invaded Spain and Portugal in 711 c.e., and ruled over much of the Iberian peninsula for the next 800 years. France was attacked and invaded, as was Italy, and the European coasts all the way to Ireland and Iceland. The Muslims swept over the Balkans, besieged Vienna, and were intermittent masters of Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary into the 19th century, destroying the Byzantines, taking Constantinople (turning it into Istanbul). Ambitious and unrelenting, the Muslims also sought to conquer Austria, and Russia.
This, unlike the depredations of the Crusades which directly contradicted the spoken teachings of Christ, were *in direct agreement with the teachings of Islam.*
Sahih Muslim
The Book of Faith (Kitab Al-Iman)
Book 001, Number 0033:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the
Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people
till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the
messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they
do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf
except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.
Sahih Muslim
Book 019, Number 4366:
It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger
of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and
Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.
[9:5] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the
Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in
wait for them in every stratagem
Mohammed was quoted as saying
"I have been ordered to fight with the people
till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah".
Al-Bukhari vol: 1:25
2) If it advocates genocide.
The slaughter of Israelis by islamic terrorists should be self-evident. These are not warriors fighting oppression, these are killers butchering women and children in their own shops and streets.... and they are again, in fulfilment of their own theology.
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some
of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O
'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill
him.' "
3)If it advocates suicide or murder as an assured route to heaven.
We were all appalled at the Heaven's Gate cult and its suicide pact. Horrified by the Jonestown suicide. What of Islam, which not merely advocates suicide but *murder*-suicide... and appeals to its children to do so?
"If an injury has touched you, be sure that a similar injury has touched the
enemy. And so these are the days We give to men by turns, that Allaah may
test those who believe and that He may take martyrs from amongst you and
Allaah likes not the transgressors. And that Allaah may purify the believers
and destroy the disbelievers." [Quran 3:140-141]
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 46:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The example of a Mujahid in Allah's Cause--
and Allah knows better who really strives in His Cause----is like a person
who fasts and prays continuously. Allah guarantees that He will admit the
Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return
him to his home safely with rewards and war booty."
4)If it espouses misogyny.
Those who grouse and fingerpoint at Christendom for the oppression of women-- were their eyes plucked out, that they could not see what Islam does to its women? Women may be "subject to their husbands" in Judeo-Christian tradition and religion.... but they are also treasured, honored, protected. "Husbands, love your wives..." "... For her price is far above rubies...." Two books of the bible are named for honored women-- Esther and Ruth. At least one woman served as a judge over Israel in the age before the first Israeli king. And one scarcely needs mention the honored place that Mary, the mother of Jesus, holds in Christendom... along with countless other women throughout the bible honored for their virtue, their courage, their intelligence, their cunning, their wisdom. The first two people to see the risen Christ were women come to tend to his grave.
Women may not hold a *dominant* place in Christianity--but they are held in a valued and esteemed regard. Christianity treats its women with respect.
Islam treats women like crap.
Muslims regard women at best as cattle, and at worst, as little more than cesspits of evil, as vermin set on earth to tempt the holy Islamic male away from Allah. It is a common teaching that most women end up in hell because of their evil ways.... and shall we go into detail about the Islamic version of heaven? It describes, in luscious detail, a place of endless wine, endless food and hot and cold running virgins-- the wet dream of a self-centered pubescent male. (Strange that there is no description of what heaven is like for the women....) In the Islamic world, beatings are normal. Genital mutilation-- the so-called "female circumcision"-- is common. Women are stoned to death for "adultery"-- which can be 'proven' by the fact she was seen walking with a man not of her family.
And you are aware that Islam permits the rape of women belonging to unbelievers during Jihad?...
And if an Islamic woman is raped, she is expected to *kill herself* for the shame *she* has brought on her family.
It makes me wonder if the recent female suicide bomber wasn't trying to buy, with her life, some pitiful scrap of approval from her culture's mysogynist god....
5)If the culture and nation steeped in it is stagnating.
For what it's worth, there is no denying the observed historical fact that the Judeo-Christian nations of the world--- America in particular-- have been surging ahead of the rest of the world in science, industry, medicine, and the advent of protected civil rights and liberties. Christendom has been the kingdom of firsts-- the first to end the ancient practice of slavery, the first to advent the democratic republic, the first to ensure the rights of freedom of speech, press, religion, lawful assembly, petition of grievance...
But the Islamic world has been stuck in the Dark Ages socially, politically, philosophically... and through noone's fault but its own. It savages any progress that tries to creep up on it as "the work of the Great Satan," and proceeds to shoot itself in the foot over and over again....
We're putting men on the moon, and they're putting teenage suicide bombers on the street.
Who's got the philosophical problem here?
Prattle all you like about the past sins of Christianity, and try to equate them to the as-of-yet unended violences and depredations of Islam. But know this, and be damned by the knowledge:
The greatest shame of Christianity is that its followers fail to practice what their religion preaches.
The greatest shame of Islam is that its followers *succeed.*
Heres my response
He responded with this:by Daggertooth
You do realize that you are only describing some of the extremests in islam. It is very unfair to brand an entire religion, and 20% of the worlds population, by it's extremests. There are many in christianity that would look just as bad. Granted the main difference is that many extremests groups in islam actualy have power. Which is a tragic, But it is not by far the entire religion.
Some General Islamic beliefs:
.The supremacy of God's will.
.That Muslims who sincerely repent and submit to God return to a state of sinlessness.
.Total and absolute rejection of racism. All people are considered children of Adam.
Many Practices inclued:
.To donate regularly to charity through zakat. This is a 2.5% charity tax on the income and property of middle and upper class Muslims.
.Jihad (struggle) is probably the most misunderstood religious word in existence. It often mentioned on Western TV and radio during news about the Middle East, where it is implied to be a synonym of "holy war" - a call to fight against non-Muslims in the defense of Islam. The vast majority of Muslims have an entirely different definition of Jihad. It is seen as a personal, internal struggle with one's self. The goal may be achievement in a profession, self-purification, the conquering of primitive instincts or the attainment of some other noble goal.
Islam is often blamed for female genital mutilation. But it is obvious that FGM is grounded in cultural tradition, not religious belief, in those countries where it is practiced. In some countries, the mutilation is practiced by Animists, Christians, and Muslims.
It's tragic that so many non-Muslims are unaware that a moderate wing even exists in Islam. And that this wing is actualy the majority. Though I suppose the media is to blame for that.
The Greatest shame of Religion is it's inability to tolerate one another, and it's tendency to absorbe negative propaganda.
Daggertooth
Now I'm actualy in under my head, not knowing islam very well. I might just counter example with passages from the bible that seem to indicate a dedication for violence. But I figure some of you guys might be able to help me out.by Ralph E. Hays
No, I stated teh observed and written doctrine of the overwhelming majority of followers of the Koran-- backed up by quotes directly from their own holy writings and prophets. The "peaceful" Islamics are the exception, not the rule.Islam vs Jews, Islam vs America, Islam vs Hindus, Islam vs Christians, Islam vs take-your-pick... right now, 8 out of 10 major world conflicts are Islam vs. somebody else
Daggertooth
ART is like a much more respectable MTV/Classic Movie channel. Get it for one day, just so you can see how the Arabic worlds have evolved for decades now, it's just the little misconceptions that a lot of people have that make Islam seem like something uncivilized and not so modern...