Extreamly ANGERY...

[arhar]

Originally posted by DÛke
...Wow, you seem to be highly, highly, highly misinformed Arhar. For your information, I'm from Iraq. In Iraq, as we speak, there are many Christians living there, alive and not harassed. In case you don't know, I came from a very high-class family, and in general, Iraq is very great country if it wasn't for that bu11sh1t president.

Yeah, I know. And your point is? I never said that you live in Pakistan or anything like that! Due to our extensive arguments before, I'm quite aware of where do you live and where did you came from, lol.

there are many different levels of Christianity that I'm willing to forgive

I'm delighted that you find it in your soul to forgive Christians... I'm glad that even those horrible heretics have some hope for them! I mean, they commited so many terrible sins - of course, the first thing they need is forgiveness from you for being Christian!!!

everyone else should be able to understand that there are some different levels in Islam...and in fact, different levels in each religion.

All that said, I'm *not* living in Pakistan, or Iraq. I'm not living in the Middle East. I'm living in the U.S., so I should be respected, and *if* anyone dares to attempt to convert me, they should at least send me something more than a 50 cent-worth booklet. I'm an official and a legal American now, and therefore, I shouldn't be treated that way. Now, if I were in Pakistan, my expectancies would be different...too bad I'm not. So yeah, they are stupid American Christians, and yeah, they are stupid fanatics, and yeah, they are worse than all other fanatics, why? Because this is a modern, civilized society. We're not living back in the Middle Ages...so yeah...it's worse than Pakistan -- in fact, it's about 307% worse than Pakistan….heck, they’re more idiots than those living in Pakistan because you wouldn’t expect such a thing in the U.S. in the first place -- I didn’t.

I don't care much for Islam. I will never, ever, convert. I rather die than convert. I assure with all my soul that no Muslim would convert easily, even if they're not very faithful -- it's in the blood of the Muslim to stay a Muslim for eternity, and that's what separates us from everyone else. That's why, in the world Islam is growing at a rate so incredible. In the U.S., Islam is growing at a rate even more so incredible. In fact, I would expect that the U.S. would be an Islamic country not too long from now -- I promise. Read some population statistics.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to prove. Maybe my point flew over your head, so I'll reiterate it in a simpler way. You are complaining that you got some stupid booklet in the mail about converting to Christianity. Gee, you poor thing!! My family - we're Jewish - get dozens of such booklets from groups like "Jews for Jesus" and others. We got people knocking on our door and ringing our doorbell trying to talk us into converting! Do you see me complaining and posting online about it? No! It's just a way life is in America, and if you live here, you have to accept it. You may say it's because I may not care about faith as much - let me assure you that I had to suffer for being Jewish A LOT. In Russia, where I lived originally, Jews were NOT welcome. That was the main reason we left.

My other point - you should REALLY stop complaining, because compared to Pakistan, this is NOTHING. While you, representing a minority religion in USA, get booklets in the mail, christians, representing a minority religion in Pakistan, get KILLED. They don't get any "Convert to Islam!" booklets in the mail. They just get slaughtered. I'm not even going to go into medieval times and wonders of being a Jew in Spain during the inquisition times....

 

[DÛke]

...SORRY, I just didn't know that some Americans can be that idiotic. I mean, I have expected and tolerated violent acts by Muslims because some of them are extremists. I had no clue...that Christians were just as bad. You know why? Because over-seas, NO ONE KNOWS that they do that...and I was shocked...

...man...oh...man...was I shocked!!!

I thought I was living in a modern society all the time...but you know what? This really opened my eyes on how the U.S. = the rest and the rest = the U.S.. Nobody is better after all.

Again...it took me by a storm to realize how filthy this place is...and I knew it was filthy, just not as filthy as that!!! Man, it's just as idiotic and filthy as every other nation, including Pakistan -- in the U.S., the idiotic levels are just reached with more modern ways. Due to the huge population, we are having some *severe* levels of idiotic behaviors executed in very intelligent and modern ways, example: Mr. Dear Ol'Sweet Darling Bush, concluding that there is an "Axis of Evil" <laughs>, that level of idiotic is reached to you via the president, for example. And what a fine idiot he is. <Everyone is talking about him and his “Axis of Evil,” read the newspapers>

However, no matter how you do it, an idiotic act is still that of the idiot. At the end, it doesn't matter *how* you executed your idiotic behavior, because the point is, you would be an idiot.

I see people being idiots *everyday* via the internet (and "God" knows I see a lot of them). Does that make them better idiots than those who...mmm...live in tents? No -- they're just as bad. Idiots...

In conclusion, in my opinion, I find that act very idiotic. Who cares if it was committed in the U.S.? Or is an idiotic act by Americans better than idiotic act by others? <Laughs>

And besides, just because you, Arhar, get pamphlets and all those everyday or whatever, and you take it, doesn't mean I will. I have never been treated like that before, and my being in the U.S. really impacts how shocked I was and still am to an extent...

In any case, if you didn't like this thread, you shouldn't have taken the time to reply. I will post whatever I want without asking anyone's permission if they think what I have to say is "interesting enough." Heck, no. And I complained everywhere...to my professors, to students I don't even know, to other sites...and I got some pretty nasty replies, but it shows how many idiots there are in the world using very modern technologies such as the internet and even the university...

...I'll post what I feel like posting, that's just another right of being in a...

...free country!

 

[Bob]

This is actually very funny, because I know someone who actually believes in all of those things in DUke's packet.
He believes Allah is not God, and I ask him why. He says it's because they have a different name. I told him Allah is Arabic for God. He still doesnt believe me. he says in the Bible, it says you cant worship another god. I yell back"ALLAH IS THE SAME GOD!" Of course he just says "Yes he is. He has a different name."He insults the Muslim religion and says they are all going to Hell. I can't get him to stop hating them.

But thats not the worst one I know. Some people I know just want to kill every single Muslim, Arab, Jew, Iraqi, or in other words everyone from the Middle East or otherwise related to it in someway. Damn Nazis...

One person wants to kill everyone not from North America. He thinks all other people are unworthy. That includes all of South America, Europe, Asia, Africa, and Australia. Dumboink...

I just want to get rid of the Terrorists and Megalomanical rulers, not the innocent people.

 

[arhar]

Duke: I fail to see how things are "just as idiotic" over here, just because you get pamphlets in the mail. Would you prefer to be a member of hated religious minority here or there?

Originally posted by Bob

Some people I know just want to kill every single Muslim, Arab, Jew, Iraqi, or in other words everyone from the Middle East or otherwise related to it in someway. Damn Nazis...

Sometimes I also think that nuking the entire region is the only thing that will stop the violence. I mean, as much as I think about it, there really IS NO SOLUTION for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that does not include entire annihilation of one of the side.

 

[DÛke]

...I've said it all. If you fail to see my perspective at this point, then...let's just leave it at that. And hey, I know that you'd never see my point any way, so why bother?

However, there's this one thing I'd like to address about your latest statement:

Arhar:

Sometimes I also think that nuking the entire region is the only thing that will stop the violence. I mean, as much as I think about it, there really IS NO SOLUTION for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that does not include entire annihilation of one of the side.

I would *never* think or want such a thing. First of all, the conflict can be solved. There's nothing that we cannot over come. Yes, it's been goin' forever, there is hope still. There always is. In addition, who gets to decide to nuke the "one side"? The "strongest" country, right? In this case, it's the U.S.. Now, I am going to admit, I have zero faith in the U.S. in making a wise decision, heck...there's no wise decision in this case. There can't be a decision to nuke Isreal. Hey, there are innocent people there. Like wise, there can not be a decision to nuke Palestin because there are also innocent people there. The out come of such a decision would always cause a commotion.

Arhar, I noticed that you and TomB always try to bring the U.S.-hating side of me, and you know, you're right, there is such a side. I have a side of me that hates every American out there. I have a side of me that hates every Muslim out there too. I have a side that hates humanity in general. Believe me. All that said, I can't really be a judge and decide that one side is more guilty than the rest. I'm not the governmenet, and you are not either. we're just people that are watching what happens out there. We don't know the "undergame," the many things that go behind the scences. Come on, if we ever have learned anything about politics, there is always another "tone" behind the reality of the damn issue. There's always another side. You know, we don't know *anything,* you and I -- yet to be able to disagree this much is really foolish of both us because again, we don't know *anything.* It's politics, if you ever admit you know it, than you don't. We will never be able to solve any problems by disagreeing. Unless one of us is a great political figure, than any issue is a dead issue -- especially if it's about something major, like the 9/11 incidents, or the Isreal/Palestin case. Just leave it alone...things will unfold as we move along...we can do nothing but watch...

...and complain...

...I'm tired of complaining about the U.S., about Muslims, about Iraqi...about anyone. I don't even know why I'm using these terms "Muslim," "Christians," etc...etc...truly, I used to have no such lines -- everyone was an equal human to me. I guess sometimes, things just go out of perspective...

 

[Griffith_se]

Originally posted by DÛke
we're just people that are watching what happens out there. We don't know the "undergame," the many things that go behind the scences. Come on, if we ever have learned anything about politics, there is always another "tone" behind the reality of the damn issue. There's always another side. You know, we don't know *anything,* you and I -- yet to be able to disagree this much is really foolish of both us because again, we don't know *anything.* It's politics, if you ever admit you know it, than you don't. We will never be able to solve any problems by disagreeing. Unless one of us is a great political figure, than any issue is a dead issue -- especially if it's about something major, like the 9/11 incidents, or the Isreal/Palestin case. Just leave it alone...things will unfold as we move along...we can do nothing but watch...

...and complain...

...I'm tired of complaining about the U.S., about Muslims, about Iraqi...about anyone. I don't even know why I'm using these terms "Muslim," "Christians," etc...etc...truly, I used to have no such lines -- everyone was an equal human to me. I guess sometimes, things just go out of perspective...

Amen, I'll be a witness.

 

[TomB]

Let's get something straight here DÛke...

Originally posted by DÛke
Arhar, I noticed that you and TomB always try to bring the U.S.-hating side of me, and you know, you're right, there is such a side.

In my reply to you on this thread I was speaking as a Christian, not as a U.S. citizen, so no, I was not trying to "bring the U.S.-hating side" of you out on this one. And as a matter of fact I don't believe I ever have tried to do that, though I do not deny that on more than one occasion I have gone out of my way to point out the inconsistencies in your arguments against the US.

Instead, I prefer leaving it up to you to show your "hating side"...

 

[DÛke]

...not gonna show anything.

Instead, I'll submit to my guilt and admit it:

A part of me...hates the United States and all of its citizens.

A part of me hates...extreamly hates...all Christians.

Is that good enough?

Sure, if you look at just those, it will really make me seem like some Islamic extreamist. <laughs> To continue my submissions, there's a part of me that really hates Muslims. A part of me hates the world in general. I don't need to show it, I'm admitting it.

Before 9/11, I was like an innocent child that didn't see any difference between being an American or Arabian, Christian or Muslim, Jew or whatever...Black or white...I didn't see any of these. Seriously. It seems that after 9/11, everyone was actually *blaming* the Arabian worlds and Islam...and it was only a natural reaction of me to be extreamly defensive, and redirect the blame, but you know what? I don't care any more...all this is over religion, right? Everything is over religion, it seems...and since most of you believe in God, let's leave it up to God, and He shall show who's guilty, right? Other than that, let's move on with our lives...I dunno about you, but the lines of differencies is already fading from my sight -- it's the way I was, and I'm goin' back there again.

 

[theorgg]

Originally posted by DÛke
Everything is over religion, it seems...and since most of you believe in God, let's leave it up to God, and He shall show who's guilty, right?

To quote somone from the only Church service I've ever attended:

"AMEN, BROTHER!"

 

[Spiderman]

DUke:

In the U.S., Islam is growing at a rate even more so incredible. In fact, I would expect that the U.S. would be an Islamic country not too long from now -- I promise. Read some population statistics.

I'm just curious here, really? Do you have any handy that you don't have to spend the entire day to get?

SORRY, I just didn't know that some Americans can be that idiotic. I mean, I have expected and tolerated violent acts by Muslims because some of them are extremists. I had no clue...that Christians were just as bad. You know why? Because over-seas, NO ONE KNOWS that they do that...and I was shocked...

They probably don't know it because it doesn't happen over there, it happens here. And usually without violence, just the constant preaching. I bet the only reason why most Americans think of Muslim extremists is because of the violence in the Middle East (and other areas, like that recent flareup between the Muslims and Hindus in India). But again, I'm a bit bemused that you think all 260+ million people in the US were somewhat "above the world" when it comes to this area.

I would *never* think or want such a thing. First of all, the conflict can be solved. There's nothing that we cannot over come. Yes, it's been goin' forever, there is hope still. There always is. In addition, who gets to decide to nuke the "one side"? The "strongest" country, right? In this case, it's the U.S.. Now, I am going to admit, I have zero faith in the U.S. in making a wise decision, heck...there's no wise decision in this case. There can't be a decision to nuke Isreal. Hey, there are innocent people there. Like wise, there can not be a decision to nuke Palestin because there are also innocent people there. The out come of such a decision would always cause a commotion

While I agree with you and disagree with arhar about nuking the place, like I have said in a lot other threads, it will take a LONG time to get rid of the underlying passions and feelings that drive the conflict, let alone the basic premise that the extremist Palestinians want their lands back and will not settle for anything less. Until you get them at least to compromise on this issue, I don't think there will be a solution.

It seems that after 9/11, everyone was actually *blaming* the Arabian worlds and Islam...and it was only a natural reaction of me to be extreamly defensive, and redirect the blame, but you know what? I don't care any more...all this is over religion, right? Everything is over religion, it seems...

While this is nominally true, it would seem it's at least half political. At least, US support of Israel seems to be one of the major sticking points with bin Laden. The other the US occupying Saudi Arabia, although I privately wonder is that truely as bad as he makes it sound, since I'm not aware of a majority of Islamic clerics in agreement with that.

 

[DÛke]

...

Spiderman:

While this is nominally true, it would seem it's at least half political. While this is nominally true, it would seem it's at least half political. At least, US support of Israel seems to be one of the major sticking points with bin Laden. The other the US occupying Saudi Arabia, although I privately wonder is that truely as bad as he makes it sound, since I'm not aware of a majority of Islamic clerics in agreement with that.

Don't bother, it's fully religious.

Question: does a government (any government) always perform tasks that the majority of its citizens see fit? No! In the case of Saudi Arabia, *even* if its government *loves* the presence of the U.S. on their soil, the people do not -- and I know that for a fact, because I only have many relatives there that complain about people complaing about the U.S. presence on their "Holy Land."

If we take the question back to few levels, then, what is a government supposed to do? The most basic yet well accurate answer *should* be that it arranges, perfectens, and protects its citizens. It merely should just provide moral laws, and protects who needs protecting. So we can easily establish that a government should be for the people. In Arabia's case, it's not -- because if it was, the U.S. would have been out of there only about a decade ago.

"Holy Land," now that's religious! The U.S. must be out of there to keep the land a "Holy" one. Extreamly religious, in the Arabian's point view.

In the case of Isreal versus Palestin -- it's also extreamly religious. Palestin basically wants the land because of religious reasons, and so does Isreal. That's all. The U.S. supporting Isreal is seen as a "sin" in some parts of the world, and seen as "glory" in another. Which part is right? Now *that's* an issue that will *never* be settled...

Now...

Spiderman:

...let alone the basic premise that the extremist Palestinians want their lands back and will not settle for anything less...

The same way you can easily accuse Palestinians of being "extreamists," I can just as easily accuse Isrealis of being "extreamists," too...and we would both argue and all...and it basically loops arounds itself in one big circle, and I think we've done a lot of that after 9/11. No matter how much you think you know, you don't know much. And when you think you know it all, you have just proven that you don't know anything at all. It's that simple. In conclusion, if we were all truly wise people, we wouldn't have to side with anyone side because...we don't know *anything.*

And since I have somewhat proven that all this madness is over religion, lets truly let "God" declare who's to be punished on "Judgement Day."

You know, all this talk about God really makes me want to believe in God, because that just shows that there will actually be a side that is wrong, and a side that is right...and since "God knows it all," we really can count on His trial.

<laughs> Actually, the bigger question can be...where the heck is "God" in all of this?



(Answer that question at your own expense, please! )

 

[Spiderman]

Question: does a government (any government) always perform tasks that the majority of its citizens see fit? No! In the case of Saudi Arabia, *even* if its government *loves* the presence of the U.S. on their soil, the people do not -- and I know that for a fact, because I only have many relatives there that complain about people complaing about the U.S. presence on their "Holy Land."

I think I asked this before: do your many relatives constitute the majority in Saudi Arabia or are you making an extrapolation?

And is it because the US is on "Holy land" or just on their land, period?

I have read smattering that the Saudi government is starting to get a bit restless about the US being there though.

In the case of Isreal versus Palestin -- it's also extreamly religious. Palestin basically wants the land because of religious reasons, and so does Isreal. That's all.

Wait, I thought the Palestinians wanted the land because they were shoved off of it from Israel?

The same way you can easily accuse Palestinians of being "extreamists," I can just as easily accuse Isrealis of being "extreamists," too...and we would both argue and all...and it basically loops arounds itself in one big circle, and I think we've done a lot of that after 9/11

I agree that there are Israeli extremists also; however, it is my impression that whenever there is a ceasefire, it is usually broken by the Hamas first, which is why the Palestinians came to mind.

 

[DÛke]

...my relatives are not the majority, but they know many people -- about 5, 000 other Saudi friends. I think 5, 000 people who dislike the U.S. presence on their soil is pretty darn good estimate of how the general population may feel. They want the the U.S. out because both, it's *there* land and because it's a Holy Land. There's nothing wrong with me, for example, wanting a stranger to leave my place, right? That's the issue.

Spiderman:

Wait, I thought the Palestinians wanted the land because they were shoved off of it from Israel?

Most likely also a factor, but I would assume that the religious factor is greater.

Spiderman:

I agree that there are Israeli extremists also; however, it is my impression that whenever there is a ceasefire, it is usually broken by the Hamas first, which is why the Palestinians came to mind.

And another person may have an impression that the Isrealis are the guilty. It doesn't matter what your impression is at all. Because you're not right. That's why I'm mostly erasing all my "impressions," because they're not right. And no one is right...

Unless some 100% facts are stated, everything else is...zero. Give me 100% assured and proven facts about how Palestinians *are* guilty, and I'll agree then. Seriously, an impression is an opinion, and an opinion is...just that...an opinion.

 

[Spiderman]

Sorry, but with just 5,000 more people you can make the leap that the majority of people feel that way? One, that's VERY similiar to my impression of Palestinian extremists, and two, unless there's only 50,000 people in Saudia Arabia, giving that a good 10% of the population, it's still too small.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with wanting strangers out of your land. But that's why there's a majority and a minority; the latter don't always get what they want (although in Saudia Arabia's case, it's more what the ruling family wants, right?)

I agree that it's just my impression = my opinion. That's why I asked a long time ago from either you or Gizmo (I think the latter) if that someone could provide a timeline of ceasefires and who committed the first act of violence afterwards. Ura I think provided a link to something like that, but it didn't really have the nitty-gritty details of that, just a broad overview of of the history of the Palestinian uprising.

 

[DÛke]

...or whatever Spiderman. I know 5, 000 people really says nothing about the majority...but hey, every single Arabian I have ever known wants them out. No matter how much that says, there's just a still "impression" that the U.S. is unwanted there...

...it's just an "impression" though.

Well...about the Palestin/Isreal conflict -- I can't discuss that anymore, because naturally, I will side in with Palestin, and naturally, you'd side in with Isreal. Why is all this natural? It fools me! Well, the truth is, either Palestin or Isreal is more right than the other. Or one is more wrong than the other. Since we, as people, can't come up to a conclusion, let's...NOT AGREE TO DISAGREE, but let's agree to let time reveal whatever there is to be revealed...unless you wanna loop around the whole circle again? I'm not ready for that, by the way...NO WAY.

 

[Spiderman]

Actually, I'm thinking I disagree with both side's current tactics, but as I'm not there and "living it", I can't judge whether they're justified or not.

So no, I wouldn't automatically side with Israel.

But I agree on your time idea

 

[mogg bomber]

I'm just going to ignore most of this huge arguement that seems to be here for now(why do these posts always end up like that?)...

So I just want to add that as a Christian, I find that pamplet extremelly insulting, not only to my religion but to this country. It's terrible when a group thinks that they are doing the will of God by trying to convert all other religions to Christianity. Some people are just so close minded that they can't accept anyone different. I feel that all religions(more or less) are worshipping the same God, they just have different names and different ways of doing it. There is absolutely no way of proving that anyone is right or wrong, and that type of thinking only brings this country down(and I'm sorry to say that I know several people like that )

 

[Daggertooth]

I stopped getting mad at that BS along time ago. I just got used to that kind of treatment, since I live in the heart of Utah. I actualy hesitate to even express my religious views. Not that I fear being killed or anything, just that many here tend to judge a persons character by his religion. Since I have none many instantly view me as evil and want nothing to do with me. A sad belief actualy....It dosn't bother me that many condemn me to hell, just the fact that the way they act around me is influenced by that.

At least in general Religious tolerance is on the rise between other religious. Sure you got conflicts, groups that sponser Killing abortionists and Gays. Fanaticals that will preach about your condemnation and tolerate your death if your beliefs are different from your own. But at least there arn't as many who beliefe that this nation is only for monotheists.

Oh, and in general about the middle east conflict. Both sides have done equaly horrible stuff. I just wish more would learn about the conflict without blindly joining one side and calling it just.

Daggertooth

 

[DÛke]

...

Daggertooth:

Oh, and in general about the middle east conflict. Both sides have done equaly horrible stuff. I just wish more would learn about the conflict without blindly joining one side and calling it just.

Maybe. There is one truth though, and that's the only possible answer. No one knows it. Both sides maybe guilty, you're right, but one side surly is more guilty than the other. Much, much, much more guilty. Who is anyone to say which side it is? No one has made enough great, unbiased research filled with 100% facts to prove or say anything. Thus, everything that has been said about the 9/11 issue so far is just a little bit more than an opinion.

And you know what? I'm so greatful I was in the CPA to argue after 9/11. There's this other message board I go to, and everyone is 100% biased against Arabians and Arabic nations. At least there are some sensible people here. Compared to them, Arhar is an angel.

 

[arhar]

Originally posted by DÛke

And you know what? I'm so greatful I was in the CPA to argue after 9/11. There's this other message board I go to, and everyone is 100% biased against Arabians and Arabic nations. At least there are some sensible people here. Compared to them, Arhar is an angel.

What's the URL? I think I'll find myself right at home!!!