CPA Build-A-Deck III: Liliana Vess

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by Shabbaman, Sep 25, 2008.

  1. Shabbaman insert avatar here

  2. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

  3. rokapoke Man Among Gods

    We need more creatures!

    ... so I'll expand our discard with a bit of "on-demand" discarding...
    2x Blazing Specter ought to help.



    4x Liliana Vess
    1x Rix Maadi, Dungeon palace
    4x Bloodstained mire
    1x Cabal coffers
    2x Duress
    1x Death Cloud
    1x Hissing Miasma
    3x Dark Ritual
    1x Nezumi Shortfang
    1x Fireball
    1x Cao Cao, Lord of Wei
    2x Damnation
    1x Dream Salvage
    1x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Mindslicer
    4x Smallpox
    4x Badlands
    4x Hypnotic Specter
    1x Vicious Hunger
    2x Lightning Bolt
    2x Will o' the Wisp
    2x Nevinyrral's Disk
    2x Blazing Specter

    Creatures spells: 12
    Non-Creature spells: 25
    Land: 10

    Total: 46
  4. Mooseman Isengar Tussle

    I'll add another shortfang and remove the hunger.


    4x Liliana Vess
    1x Rix Maadi, Dungeon palace
    4x Bloodstained mire
    1x Cabal coffers
    2x Duress
    1x Death Cloud
    1x Hissing Miasma
    3x Dark Ritual
    2x Nezumi Shortfang
    1x Fireball
    1x Cao Cao, Lord of Wei
    2x Damnation
    1x Dream Salvage
    1x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Mindslicer
    4x Smallpox
    4x Badlands
    4x Hypnotic Specter
    2x Lightning Bolt
    2x Will o' the Wisp
    2x Nevinyrral's Disk
    2x Blazing Specter

    Creatures spells: 13
    Non-Creature spells: 24
    Land: 10

    Total: 46
  5. BigBlue Magic Jones

    I think the Miasma should be replaced... W/ 2 damnation and 2 disks... I'd rather see a creature.

    I'll add more duals...

    4x Blood Crypt

    4x Liliana Vess
    1x Rix Maadi, Dungeon palace
    4x Bloodstained mire
    1x Cabal coffers
    2x Duress
    1x Death Cloud
    1x Hissing Miasma
    3x Dark Ritual
    2x Nezumi Shortfang
    1x Fireball
    1x Cao Cao, Lord of Wei
    2x Damnation
    1x Dream Salvage
    1x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Mindslicer
    4x Smallpox
    4x Badlands
    4x Blood Crypt
    4x Hypnotic Specter
    2x Lightning Bolt
    2x Will o' the Wisp
    2x Nevinyrral's Disk
    2x Blazing Specter

    Creatures spells: 13
    Non-Creature spells: 24
    Land: 14

    Total: 51
  6. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    To continue work on the mana base: with Cabal coffers Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth follows naturally. Just the one to start with, but if there are more nonbasics I'd add one or two more.

    4x Liliana Vess
    1x Rix Maadi, Dungeon palace
    4x Bloodstained mire
    1x Cabal coffers
    1x Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
    2x Duress
    1x Death Cloud
    1x Hissing Miasma
    3x Dark Ritual
    2x Nezumi Shortfang
    1x Fireball
    1x Cao Cao, Lord of Wei
    2x Damnation
    1x Dream Salvage
    1x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Mindslicer
    4x Smallpox
    4x Badlands
    4x Blood Crypt
    4x Hypnotic Specter
    2x Lightning Bolt
    2x Will o' the Wisp
    2x Nevinyrral's Disk
    2x Blazing Specter

    Creatures spells: 13
    Non-Creature spells: 24
    Land: 15

    Total: 52[/QUOTE]
  7. Mooseman Isengar Tussle

    I'd like to add another creature and remove the Miasma.
    Corrosive Mentor, wither and gives wither to all your black creatures


    4x Liliana Vess
    1x Rix Maadi, Dungeon palace
    4x Bloodstained mire
    1x Cabal coffers
    1x Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
    2x Duress
    1x Death Cloud
    3x Dark Ritual
    2x Nezumi Shortfang
    1x Fireball
    1x Cao Cao, Lord of Wei
    2x Damnation
    1x Dream Salvage
    1x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Mindslicer
    4x Smallpox
    4x Badlands
    4x Blood Crypt
    4x Hypnotic Specter
    2x Lightning Bolt
    2x Will o' the Wisp
    2x Nevinyrral's Disk
    2x Blazing Specter
    2x Corrosive Mentort

    Creatures spells: 15
    Non-Creature spells: 23
    Land: 15

    Total: 53
  8. BigBlue Magic Jones

    4x Tainted Peak - with all these swamps, they'll be more duals...

    I think w/ the addition of all this mana... which is black... we should run a couple Drain Life

    4x Liliana Vess
    1x Rix Maadi, Dungeon palace
    4x Bloodstained mire
    1x Cabal coffers
    1x Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
    2x Duress
    1x Death Cloud
    3x Dark Ritual
    2x Nezumi Shortfang
    1x Fireball
    1x Cao Cao, Lord of Wei
    2x Damnation
    1x Dream Salvage
    1x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Mindslicer
    4x Smallpox
    4x Badlands
    4x Tainted Peak
    4x Blood Crypt
    4x Hypnotic Specter
    2x Lightning Bolt
    2x Will o' the Wisp
    2x Nevinyrral's Disk
    2x Blazing Specter
    2x Corrosive Mentort

    Creatures spells: 15
    Non-Creature spells: 23
    Land: 19

    Total: 57
  9. BigBlue Magic Jones

    I'm adding 2 Drain Life. (I'd like to cut something, but I'll leave that to someone else) - also organizing everything.

    4x Liliana Vess

    2x Will o' the Wisp
    4x Hypnotic Specter
    2x Blazing Specter
    2x Corrosive Mentort
    2x Nezumi Shortfang
    1x Cao Cao, Lord of Wei
    1x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Mindslicer

    2x Duress
    1x Death Cloud
    1x Fireball
    2x Damnation
    4x Smallpox
    2x Drain Life

    2x Lightning Bolt
    3x Dark Ritual
    1x Dream Salvage

    2x Nevinyrral's Disk

    4x Badlands
    4x Tainted Peak
    4x Blood Crypt
    4x Bloodstained mire
    1x Cabal coffers
    1x Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
    1x Rix Maadi, Dungeon palace

    Creatures spells: 15
    Non-Creature spells: 25
    Land: 19

    Total: 59
  10. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    3x Liliana Vess

    2x Will o' the Wisp
    4x Hypnotic Specter
    2x Blazing Specter
    2x Corrosive Mentort
    2x Nezumi Shortfang
    1x Cao Cao, Lord of Wei
    1x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Mindslicer

    2x Duress
    1x Death Cloud
    1x Fireball
    2x Damnation
    4x Smallpox
    2x Drain Life

    2x Lightning Bolt
    4x Dark Ritual
    1x Dream Salvage

    2x Nevinyrral's Disk

    4x Badlands
    4x Tainted Peak
    4x Blood Crypt
    4x Bloodstained mire
    1x Cabal coffers
    1x Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
    1x Rix Maadi, Dungeon palace

    Creatures spells: 15
    Non-Creature spells: 25
    Land: 19

    Total: 59

    There's not enough land in this deck. I've cut a Liliana for the 4th ritual. I don't agree with Tainted peak though: there's not that much red to begin with, and with Bloodstained mires + 8 duals that's more than enough red to support a lot of red. But the main thing is that it isn't a swamp, so it doesn't work with Cabal coffers.
  11. BigBlue Magic Jones

    That makes sense Shabbaman, but what's the point of the coffers anyways? if we're counting on buku Black for Drain or Fireball, we should at least add 1 or 2 coffers... I'll swap out my 4 Tainted Peaks for 1 Coffer and 3 Swamps. (Blood Crypt + Badlands are also swamps) I think we should take something else out instead of Liliana. This deck isn't really expensive so 20-21 lands should suffice.

    3x Liliana Vess

    2x Will o' the Wisp
    4x Hypnotic Specter
    2x Blazing Specter
    2x Corrosive Mentort
    2x Nezumi Shortfang
    1x Cao Cao, Lord of Wei
    1x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Mindslicer

    2x Duress
    1x Death Cloud
    1x Fireball
    2x Damnation
    4x Smallpox
    2x Drain Life

    2x Lightning Bolt
    4x Dark Ritual
    1x Dream Salvage

    2x Nevinyrral's Disk

    4x Badlands
    4x Blood Crypt
    4x Bloodstained mire
    2x Cabal Coffers
    1x Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
    1x Rix Maadi, Dungeon palace
    3x Swamp

    Creatures spells: 15
    Non-Creature spells: 25
    Land: 19

    Total: 59

    There's not enough land in this deck. I've cut a Liliana for the 4th ritual. I don't agree with Tainted peak though: there's not that much red to begin with, and with Bloodstained mires + 8 duals that's more than enough red to support a lot of red. But the main thing is that it isn't a swamp, so it doesn't work with Cabal coffers.[/QUOTE]
  12. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    You are right, the deck isn't mana intensive at all... which is, well, wrong. It's not a weenie rush deck, because Liliana is too expensive for that. I think it should've become a control deck. Perhaps this deckbuilding exercise should become more of a "deck building guidelines" game than a "add a card" game.

    For instance, no matter how awesome lightning bolt is, what this deck really needs is pyroclasm (or, if we'd have a lot of Cabal coffers, Earthquake, which also saves our hippies) to deal with the opposing horde. The only blockers we have are the two willo's and the stinkweed pimp.

    With our main card being a planewalker, we should've identified the cards that don't hurt our planeswalker, but does hurt our opponent. Cards like the Disk and Death cloud are very solid. Earthquake probably isn't ("all players hurts planeswalkers, right?).
  13. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    See, I think we're going in a different direction with this set of deck building then. Before, we just added cards to the deck that we were probably familiar with and thought fit the colors. Here, we're actually discussing the deck and saying the direction it should go and what cards should be in or out, in which case (at least for me) it becomes more that person's (or people's) vision of the deck and they don't really need the others to add cards if they already have an idea for it.

    Which is fine, but if that's the case, at least for this set of deck-building, I'll bow out and just watch you guys build the deck and if you intend to play them, take one for a spin if you guys want. I just like the previous deck-building where you see what deck forms from people just giving cards and trying to play with it.
  14. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    It sounds a bit negative, but I see your point. I think it'd be boring to build decks with 4x and with guidelines. We'd just be building regular decks and giving critique on card choices and numbers. That can be nice, but if I'd want that I could just as well open a thread and start with a suggested decklist. That's not "build a deck". And it's pretty boring.

    But I think I can propose a compromise: we build highlander decks so everyone can come up with a card that fits (and best of all: because it's highlander you get nicer (obscure) cards than "4x duress, 4x dark ritual, 4x hippie"). But instead of adding a card, you can add a ruleset: "I add 8 slots of discard". Something like that?
  15. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I know it sounds negative - I couldn't really think of a way to say it better in a forum :) I mean, I prefer not to go with that way of deck-building, so all I was trying to do was say why I didn't want to participate :)

    I think that's why we went the highlander route before - to get more cards in and have a variety :)

    I can try the compromise although it's still setting a direction; I mean, if someone says 8 slots of discard, well, there's only so many (good) discard cards. But I'm willing to try it once :)
  16. Mooseman Isengar Tussle

    Not directly. A planeswalker is neither a creature nor a player.

    I have no problem discussing the build and seeing the deck evolve. I'm just not sure that we should be able to just add 4x of a card.... propose a card by adding 1 and then if others feel it's needed add more.

    I originally put in the Mentors so that blockers would deal -1/-1 counters, but without the 1/5 wall type creatures they may not be the best choice. i had the thought of using wither as a subtle control device along with the Miasma.
  17. BigBlue Magic Jones

    How about this...

    One problem w/ these decks is they are built one after the other, so when you build the final deck, you know what the other decks are and can sort of prepare for them...

    There aren't too many ways to deal w/ Planeswalkers in Black or Red... You're only option is to overpower it via attack - I can't think of a "Destroy target Permanent" like Vindicate in Black or Red... Blue has Bounce to deal w/ them... But - other than that your only option is to power through w/ damage aimed at them rather than the player.

    I say we scrap this deck and start over - with that in mind...

    I prefer Highlander for the forum game build-a-decks, sure the decks don't get as tuned as they would otherwise... but that's sort of the point. It's Casual... If we want to allow mulitple multi-lands for mana fixing, that seems appropriate and would help all the decks. If we want, we could also allow 2 of rather than 1 of... that would seem a decent compromise.

    And, Control is a good direction for Liliana imho. This deck wouldn't be "horrible", but I think it'd get schooled by the other deck.
  18. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    I'm no judge, and I know crap about planeswalkers. But I found this on wizards' site:

    So if you play an Earthquake you could kill an opposing planeswalker, but keep your own unharmed. Right? Because in that case, Earthquake would be a solid choice. And since it still has only 59 cards, we can tweak it ;) I'm changing the mentorts for Earthquakes. Die Ajani, DIE!

    3x Liliana Vess

    2x Will o' the Wisp
    4x Hypnotic Specter
    2x Blazing Specter
    2x Nezumi Shortfang
    1x Cao Cao, Lord of Wei
    1x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Mindslicer

    2x Duress
    1x Death Cloud
    1x Fireball
    2x Damnation
    4x Smallpox
    2x Drain Life
    2x Corrosive Mentort

    2x Lightning Bolt
    4x Dark Ritual
    1x Dream Salvage

    2x Nevinyrral's Disk

    4x Badlands
    4x Blood Crypt
    4x Bloodstained mire
    2x Cabal Coffers
    1x Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
    1x Rix Maadi, Dungeon palace
    3x Swamp

    Creatures spells: 13
    Non-Creature spells: 27
    Land: 19

    Total: 59
  19. Mooseman Isengar Tussle

    There are only 58 cards listed, so I'll add the Liliana Vess back so there are 4 again.
    Still need 1 more card.
    Oh, I fixed the Earthquake link.


    So if you play an Earthquake you could kill an opposing planeswalker, but keep your own unharmed. Right? Because in that case, Earthquake would be a solid choice. And since it still has only 59 cards, we can tweak it ;) I'm changing the mentorts for Earthquakes. Die Ajani, DIE!

    4x Liliana Vess

    2x Will o' the Wisp
    4x Hypnotic Specter
    2x Blazing Specter
    2x Nezumi Shortfang
    1x Cao Cao, Lord of Wei
    1x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Mindslicer

    2x Duress
    1x Death Cloud
    1x Fireball
    2x Damnation
    4x Smallpox
    2x Drain Life
    2x Earthquake

    2x Lightning Bolt
    4x Dark Ritual
    1x Dream Salvage

    2x Nevinyrral's Disk

    4x Badlands
    4x Blood Crypt
    4x Bloodstained mire
    2x Cabal Coffers
    1x Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
    1x Rix Maadi, Dungeon palace
    3x Swamp

    Creatures spells: 13
    Non-Creature spells: 27
    Land: 19

    Total: 59
  20. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    I'll change the shortfangs with another two wisps. The deck is low on creatures already, but flying regenerating blockers should be fine with Earthquake and Disk.

    4x Liliana Vess

    4x Will o' the Wisp
    4x Hypnotic Specter
    2x Blazing Specter
    1x Cao Cao, Lord of Wei
    1x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Mindslicer

    2x Duress
    1x Death Cloud
    1x Fireball
    2x Damnation
    4x Smallpox
    2x Drain Life
    2x Earthquake

    2x Lightning Bolt
    4x Dark Ritual
    1x Dream Salvage

    2x Nevinyrral's Disk

    4x Badlands
    4x Blood Crypt
    4x Bloodstained mire
    2x Cabal Coffers
    1x Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
    1x Rix Maadi, Dungeon palace
    3x Swamp

    Creatures spells: 13
    Non-Creature spells: 27
    Land: 19

    Total: 59

    Suggested changes for finishing the deck:

    -More Earthquakes!
    -Adding another land, or even two. Could be another coffers. The deck is low on land. What about Crucible of worlds? It'd be good with Smallpox.
    -More Earthquakes!
    -Changing the drain lifes to Consume spirit or (if lifegain is less important) Profane command
    -More Earthquakes!
    -More specters. Blazing specter is good because of its haste, but discard isn't random. I'm ok with it, but what about:
    -More Earthquakes! Not really, but what about:
    -Needle specter: I just found this with gatherer. Still random discard and no haste. But it has potential with:
    -More Earthquakes! Not really, but what about:
    -Jitte. It's not a casual card, but it should be in any deck with creatures. It'd be great with the flyers, and especially with Needle specter.

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