Assault of the Sno-Demons Part Two: Revenge of the Rain Sprites

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Zhaneel, Feb 22, 2003.

  1. train The Wildcard!!!...

    but Duke... you could substitute something as simple as 3/3 for 1...

    and as such you can evolve into the rules of math...

    Math as we know it, and as is most everything else... is created by man... and as such is limited to the rules expressed by man...

    so...

    abstract math, as you call it, is really only... math... using it's own rules... and yes - a=2a is also valid with infinty as defined by the problem...

    and it's not "abstractions" if defined as the ones in the problem were...

    They're defined values...

    This is just a test of math's principles...
  2. DÛke Memento Mori

    ..
    Uh, duh? And when you replace that for one of the variables, you will also have to replace the other variable.

    So?

    a=b

    3/3=1

    Do whatever the heck you want to do to those; you will never get a wrong answer if you follow the mathematical logic.
    You are wrong here. If math were the "rules of man," than the entire universe should not abide by these "man-rules." But we have been to outter space. This "rule" survives the test of the universe, therefore, it is true, at least, to what we know of the universe. Don't confuse man-made rules with universal laws. Honestly, I am not sure if math is "universal law," we have not been throughout the entire universe...but to where we have been, it seems that the universe, so far, agrees with us therefore it is a law, not a rule.
    No they are not. a and b are not values. They are variables. The very definition of variables suggest that they need a value. The second you place a value on a and b is the second you end that little trick.
    No, it is not.

    Take this, for example:

    ab - aa = bb - aa

    Let us replace this with the "same" value that you suggest they are:

    2*2 - 2*2 = 2*2 - 2*2

    Equals

    4-4=4-4

    Equals

    0=0

    Now, let us take the next step, which says: oh wait! We would be done with that problem!
  3. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    And in any case, I will not pretend that I am some mathematical genius, not even average. I stopped taking math and instead focusing on philosophy and psychology for a reason...

    ...you have to keep in mind that I am trying to see this from a "philosophical" point of view, beyond mathematical logic...
  4. EricBess Active Member

    Actually, your on the right track, Duke. However, the substitution of a for b is legit based on the original assumption of a=b.

    Actually, the incorrect step is cancelling (b-a) for pretty much the reason you state. b-a=0. You can't simply "cancel out" as stated, but you do so by dividing. Dividing both sides by b-a is dividing by 0, which will cause very odd things to occur.
  5. train The Wildcard!!!...

    why... the value didn't change...
    Man cannot understand universal law... it simply applies to what it finds... all it knows... and since we understand it as being correct -it is verified...
    no they weren't... they are defined as a = 1+1, and b=2, therefore they have values and are not variables... they are substitutions, defined substitutions... you can't substitute the unknown for known... that then gives you a variable... but our values were known..
    that's just it - it was an example... as we all accept the definition of 1... we all accept the definition that 1+1=2... but when Math can prove otherwise, how do we know that what we've already proven within the universe is true, if Math could be truly "universal" law, and it's own principles prove something that's not true...

    I understand you're looking at it from a philosophical point of view... and most of us should be committed as such... but we're the norm, not the out of place...
  6. EricBess Active Member

    Just to demonstrate what goes wrong with an actual number.

    2=2 {a=b}
    2*2 = 2*2 {ab = bb}
    2*2 - 2*2 = 2*2 - 2*2 {ab - aa = bb - aa}
    2*(2 - 2) = (2 + 2) * (2 - 2) {a(b-a) = (b+a)(b-a)}
    Note that up to this point, the math is logically correct.
    2 = (2+2) {a = b+a}
    As you can see, the problem is that I divided both sides by (2-2), or in other words, I divided both sides by 0.

    Duke, your argument started at the end and stated that 1=2 is not true, therefore, b must not equal a. That's not true, but what you went on to state about both sides being 0 was right on the nose.
  7. EricBess Active Member

    You know, it just hit me how odd it is that we switched so quickly from a flexible art form to a hard science. I think train is at fault. That takes talent :D
  8. Zhaneel Resident Gryphon Queen

    And even stranger that we've switched from talking about the weather to having a hardcore discussion.

    Speaking of the weather, it still sucks - everything's ice now.

    That 'proof' is a favorite of a friend of mine... We learned about it in math class.

    And how did the topic get to math? I'm too lazy to read the rest of the thread.
  9. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...
    Yes, you are good and many. In your opinion, does the universe laugh?

    We have been to the moon and back; we have ships sent throughout. So far, it seems, that the universe accepts our formulations, hence it enables us to build space ships to actually move across the universe. Now - if a mathematically flawed ship were to be sent to outter space, would you not think that it would collapse before the universe? Can we send just any ship into space and expect it to travel nicely? If we can, then I am willing to argue that math is imperfect. If, however, it requires accurate calculations and mathematical logic so as to be able to send our mishaps to outter space, than it seems that there is a law that the universe follows. If we cannot see how far our math can survive throughout the universe, than we cannot prove that math is a universal law - that must be realized before anything else. For all I know, our math could be just ours - something that is purely earthly and humanly.

    Suppose that math is wrong. Just yet another invention. What a shock would that be, of course, for the good and the many, the "norm," would that not have been a waste of time, a waste of life? - to know that the universe does not give a damn about earthly creations! - how lonely and out of place would you feel...when finally realize that you have been, basically, a tool in use, merely a slave of manly rules. Sure, it has brought you happiness, but it is nothing - much like religion, much like politics, much like cultures.

    At that point, you would wish you were "out of place," because from that place, you see it all, have the ability to realize many things, not just a mathematical forumla...your life would still be filled with a sense of truthfulness and worthiness, beyond simply arrogance and "opinions," way over and beyond manly creations.

    Too much faith in something can bring too many downfalls and diseases. And behold! - our world - downfalling and diseased. Everyday, with ever waking, so much faith is placed in a car, in a moral-"law," in a God, in a government, in a value...so much faith in exteriorities...

    But for all those, I suspect a grand downfall...when they all finally see their errors and realize that they have been playing with mud and simple shapes...
  10. train The Wildcard!!!...

    As I phrased in another thread...

    I am content knowing that life would not be what it is, without me...:)
  11. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    We're too lazy to tell you :p
  12. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Thanks!
    :D ;)
  13. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    But since we're on the topic of math...

    1= 2 :p


    a = b
    a^2 = a*b
    a^2-b^2 = a*b-b^2
    (a+b)(a-b) = b(a-b)
    (a+b) = b
    a+a = a
    2a = a
    2 = 1


    :D
  14. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    You just did the same as EricBess did in posts 60-90. This
    means your dividing by 0, which will give you unpredictable results anyway :)
  15. Zhaneel Resident Gryphon Queen

    you're. not your.
  16. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    But it's funny to see anyone who looks at it, and are actually shaken by the concept that 1 might equal 2. It's just funny to ruffle some people's mathematical foundations every now and then.

    And yes, after looking through the proof the first time, I realized, that a-b = 0 given that a = b...

    :p

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