It has begun.

[mogg bomber]

The only reason I'm not condemning this completely is that we are giving food and aid to the Afghan refugees, and we gave them enough warning that the smarter citizens have already left. As long as this remains an attack only on the terrorists, and not on all of Afghanistan, I guess I support it, though I feel really bad that we are forced to put innocent lives in danger. There really should've been a better way.

 

[DÛke]

...

Arhar:
So... You don't hate him for killing 6000 of your countrymen?

No, Arhar, I don't hate Bin Ladin for killing 6000 innocent people. I wouldn't hate him if he killed 10,000; or lets push the limits: 20,000. Get my points.

I would NEVER hate him.

I'm sure you're asking for a reason by now.

I don't hate him SIMPLY because if I do, then FAIRLY, I MUST hate the United States too. If I hate Bin Ladin for killing 6000 or so innocent people, I must hate the U.S. for killing 6000+++++++ people, 1 of whom is my relative, the other being my friend; and 3 injuried others whom I personally know, one being my dad, and 2 friends.

I am a fair person. If I hate Bin Ladin, then I must hate the U.S., for they are both in the same boat - directly or indirectly. I'm not gonna hate Bin Ladin, because I don't wanna live in a place that I hate...

You and the leading population, on the other hand, hate Bin Ladin for a reason that the U.S. is overly obligated to on its own right. Yet you only hate Bin Ladin alone. Maybe you don't like to face the facts. Maybe you don't like to hear the truths. Maybe you don't like to see the same thing from another's eye...I seriously don't know. I'm tried of hearing the word "revenge" and "war" echo so endlessly and carelessly...I'm tired of people not listening, and I'm even more tired of people who not only NOT listen, but make others (like Gizmo) feel unsafe and unworthy to voice his opinion.

What an amazing society...

You have 2 friends. Each commit a crime against you; why hate one, and not hate the other?

"Hate them both, or hate non...my friend. Other than that, do not mention the word "just" before me" -- DÛke

 

[arhar]

You live in USA, don't you? You have the internet... you go to college... and I'll take a wild guess and say you're not too poor and unhappy. So you like to take from America... and not give. Why do you live here, then? Do you think it's right to receive so much from America, and not even LIKE IT in return? I will never understand it... Just like you, I moved to America from a country where life was very tough, and now I love America with all my heart and am grateful for everything it's done for me, while you don't appear to be grateful for anything.

 

[terzarima]

Does anyone else feel like the US has taken the position of God to deem what is right and wrong? We haven't really discussed the pride of the US. It wasn't just the twin towers that were attacked that day, but the US's ego.

I don't hate Bin laden, hate is beyond me for anyone. He's an extremist to say the least, if he done things on a smaller scale (I.e no death destruction, so on) , he would have his reasons justified. I won't say he's right on the issue either, I wouldn't pass aside an anger or nuerologic disorder, or he may just be pissed at the US for what its done!

I don't know what to say other than no one can truely place the whole blame on a single orginization or a single person or a single coutry. How bout we say the world is to blame and sleep better tonight?

 

[Goku]

All speculation! No evidence!

Not to get involved, but I must make it clear, as pertaining to "deaths of innocents":

Taliban reports, according to MSNBC, state that some innocents were killed.

This rang a bell to me.

I remember Hussein making statements to his country about how our planes killed innnocents... and then pictures were shown on Saudi news. Pictures of women and children, laying dead; with bullet holes in the back of their heads.

Supposedly from U.S. planes.

It was later revealed by some who had been close to him had had these people killed, and then tried to say that the U.S. did it.

I wonder... are any reports that are Taliban in origin credible?

Speaking from an Honor perspective, I can say that while 'an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind', one must realize that retaliation was imminent.

What good would complaining do now?

I watch the news, and ponder the outcome...

 

[EricBess]

arhar, the way you speak of the USA makes me think of it as a big huge chunk of rock.

America is a great country for the freedom and possibilities that it stands for. Governments are a necessary part of this, but they sometimes lose focus of what America is about. Don't expect Duke or anyone else to forsake their mother country just because they live in America. We all love America because it is our home, the land that we know and love. Duke (and others like him) have made it their home, but it is not their native land. They have adopted it as their home and we accept them as brothers. But we don't expect them to forsake everything they left behind.

I must say that I am shocked that anyone here at the CPA would treat this situation so remorslessly as to treak Gizmo the way he claims to have been treated. He is honorable enough to come here and state his opinions. While I don't agree with all of his opinions, I respect him for them. It sickens me to think that someone would be threatened enough by his views that they need to strike out at him for their own sence of inferiority.

 

[Dementia]

Originally posted by Zadok001
As I've said all along - The first innocent blood that is shed at our hands marks the point at which we are no better than Bin Laden.

Who do you mean by WE? Do you mean the American people?

I would say a better comparison then "we" and Bin Laden is not as accurate as "we" and the Afghan people. We as the American people are about as responsible for what our government does as what the Afghan people are for what he does.

I have "changed sides" on this whole matter. I agree and support those bombings now. Why you ask? Mainly because of Bin Ladens speech. He has said that there are believers and non-believers. I suppose I am his enemy whether I want to be or not. And I guess you have to fight an enemy with the same tactics he fights you.

So, I guess what I am saying is that if we kill innocent people in Afghanastan....well....that is tough luck. We are his enemy and innocent people on our side of things have died as well. Yes, I know this sounds heartless....but sometimes life is hard.

Edit: Oh, and I have had a chance to see some of Gizmo's posts. I have to agree with people saying that his views are not the problem. HE is. As far as I can tell he seems to like making people mad more then talking things through.

 

[DÛke]

...

Dementia:
I have "changed sides" on this whole matter. I agree and support those bombings now. Why you ask? Mainly because of Bin Ladens speech. He has said that there are believers and non-believers.

WOW! You dislike that, huh? Well, I don't suppose you've heard Dear Bush's childish speech, have you, in which he declared "...you're either with us, or against us..." - tell me, what's the difference between either speeches? NOTHING - again - WHY do you point out something as stupid as Bin Ladin's speech, when you don't point out Bush's?

Those "bombings" will not effect Bin Ladin, and it is only making more normal people wanting to become adept terrorists. Even if Bin Ladin is dead, the U.S. will never be safe. Never. Killing one guy, will result in the making of countless clones of that guy. That's the road the U.S. is aiming for. Good luck.

To me, it seems that some of you guys are angry at the fact that 6000 or so died, yet you don't care about anything else. You, your country. Period. I fail to see the "just" side of that, and I even more so fail to see the logic - yet you think Gizmo and I are being somehow "unfaithful" or whatever cheap shot you wanna throw at us.

Arhar, where did you get the idea I'm not faithful to the U.S.? You speak of it as if I don't care, but I care MORE THAN YOU EVER WILL, believe it or not. I just know how to control myself, and look at the situation from ALL perspectives before declaring my decision. Just because you want revenge, just because YOU like to bomb, just because you're happy about the war, does NOT mean you're "faithful" to the U.S.; it only means that you're a human being with natural feelings; only a mere human that actions upon sudden impulses without giving the slightest thought. Period. Being faithful is being logical, and you are not logical at all. To you, the U.S. is the center of your life, and I have NEVER even heard you mention the innocent lives that have and will suffer BECAUSE of the U.S. - heck, you almost seem to deny the fact that lives HAVE indeed suffered because of the U.S.; that's not logic my friend, that's the world of your mind. Have some diginity and shame before you speak the words of "revenge," and "war," and know what they mean.

Here's your "faith," Arhar:
"Revenge, war, and killing. We will win no matter what. We are the best. GOD BLESS AMERICA..."

Here's my faith:
"No revenge. Bring those obligated to justice. THEN take a moment of reflection and see WHY in the first place such crime was committed, and treat the problem from its deep roots. GOD BLESS THE WORD..."

Mine seems to be more diplomatic, while yours, Arhar, is only "there" because of YOUR personal hunger for action - ANY ACTION, in this case.

EricBess, as much as I appreciate you justifying my lack of faith for the U.S., I must disagree on one issue: I treat the U.S. AS my native land now, but I have NOT in anyway forgotten the Arabian world. I live like an American now - you can't distinct me, in fact - but I have not forgotten about my other worlds. When you live in a country, you don't try to be faithful by agreeing with all its action, but by correcting its mistakes.

I'm sorry that some of you think the U.S. is perfect. It's nowhere near that. No country is near that yet. The U.S. is WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD, we are not special.

"If a guy comes in to my house, and kills my family...FIRST, I will want a reason why he killed my family, and I will make sure to myself that I UNDERSTAND that reason fully. Hey, my family just may have deserved thier death. THEN, I will want the guy put into justice. All that done, I still wouldn't hate the guy." -- DÛke

 

[MrXarvox]

"If a guy comes in to my house, and kills my family...FIRST, I will want a reason why he killed my family, and I will make sure to myself that I UNDERSTAND that reason fully. Hey, my family just may have deserved thier death. THEN, I will want the guy put into justice. All that done, I still wouldn't hate the guy." -- DÛke

If someone came into your house and killed your family, you'd still be emotionally stable enough to think it all through and not hate the guy? That says to me that you are cold hearted with a facade of humanity... granted, I don't believe that's your actual personality, but that is what your quote there infers.


-----
Personally, I see the Taliban as a troop of brutal lunatics who deserve what they're getting right now. Doesn't matter whether they contributed to the WTC catastrophe, doesn't matter if bin Laden did it either. They're all a bunch of bastards who need to be done away with. I can honestly say that I hate them. Not blind hate, not the sort of ingrained hate that stems from a weak mind. I hate the Taliban and bin Laden for just being jerks in every aspect. Death to them, death to their supporters, death to all who perpetuate a violent killjoy of a world. And life, and power, to the people with hearts.

 

[Gizmo]

Well the USA blew up a UN mineclearing operation, dedicated to clearing Afghanistan on mines. The UN have just released the four names of the UN aid workers killed in the attack.

Accidents happen, especially when you are firing from 1,000 miles away. That only four people have been confirmed as hit so far is a credit to technology, but dont pretend that innocent people wont get hurt, because war always catches at least some in the crossfire.

When the US ambassador says there will be no limits to the US retaliaton (speaking last night) then its little wonder the Liberal Socialists among us get a bit jumpy.

Up to now I`ve been very impressed with how restrained the US response as been, it has been entirely out of keeping with what I expected of Bush et al. They have a very tricky tightrope to walk here, and up to now they have done a pretty good job (a few fubars notwithstanding - 'Operation: Infinite Justice') but the simple fact is that there is a long long way to go yet, and the first misplaced step undoes the whole thing. So long as the US remains cautious and sensitive to allies feedback we might manage to get out of this and emerge into a better world.

Can we please just do something to reign in the Israeli`s though? They are really rocking the boat.

 

[arhar]

Duke: LOL, I hate to say it but I disagree with you on all accounts First of all, I think Bush's speech was very good, and I fail to see how it was childish or stupid. His words were strong and he looked like a leader of a great nation in times of trouble - just what American people needed to see.

If you disagree with the bombings, how do you propose to fight terrorism? Give in to Bin Laden's claims? I'm just curious... And yes, there will be more terrorism. But there will be more regardless of our attacks.... And now we're doing the only right thing in my opinion - taking the war to them, instead of sitting back and waiting for more attacks to happen.


To me, it seems that some of you guys are angry at the fact that 6000 or so died, yet you don't care about anything else. You, your country. Period. I fail to see the "just" side of that, and I even more so fail to see the logic - yet you think Gizmo and I are being somehow "unfaithful" or whatever cheap shot you wanna throw at us.


Actually, I agree with you on this. You are right. Of course, when people die in other countries, I feel bad, but mostly I only care about what happens here. When 6000 die in America, I care about it a lot more than if 6000 people die in Somali. This is just my point of view. Obviously, now that I posted it, I expect posts like "How could you say something like that, that's inhumane!"... But the fact of the matter is, a lot of people feel like that, but they're not saying it out loud, because it's not P.C.

Arhar, where did you get the idea I'm not faithful to the U.S.? You speak of it as if I don't care, but I care MORE THAN YOU EVER
WILL, believe it or not.

Please, don't say this. Words cannot describe how I care about the United States, and from your posts so far I've got the impression that you care about the Arabian world much more. If that's not the case - oh well, good for you, but what do you expect me to think when all your posts defend our enemies and criticize us?


"If a guy comes in to my house, and kills my family...FIRST, I will want a reason why he killed my family, and I will make sure to myself that I UNDERSTAND that reason fully. Hey, my family just may have deserved thier death. THEN, I will want the guy put into justice. All that done, I still wouldn't hate the guy." -- DÛke

Well, now we got to the fundamental issue. We have totally different viewpoints on this. I respect your opinion, but I must say I will do something totally opposite if somebody comes into my house and kills MY family. FIRST, I will make sure that guy suffers 1000000 more than my family did, and dies a horrible death, and THEN I will make sure nothing like that happen again. After that, I still would hate that guy for the rest of my life and spit on his grave every week.

Now, I must ask you to refrain from calling my OPINIONS childish and immature, and acting like you're holier than thou. As you can see, I don't disrespect your opinions, even though I totally disagree with them, so it would be good if you did the same with mine.

 

[DÛke]

...

Mr.X, yes that's what I really feel. That's not being cold-hearted. If someone would commit such a crime, they must have a pretty good reason, and I AM willing to listen to that reason with so much calm, and THEN, if it can't justify the action, THEN, ONLY THEN, would I want the criminal put into justice. That's not being colded hearted. That's justice, Mr.X...smells different, doesn't it? Maybe my family has done something of vice to the person behind my back? Maybe it's an "old story"? I will question before I commit...

Just shows me that you can't separate justice from vengance...

Typical.

Arhar, I never disrespected your opinion. You simply don't know what you're talking about. I donated blood 2 times, and thinkin' of donating a third time. I talked to people all over the net, trying to calm them down, and make them feel that someone is listening - ME. What did YOU do? I don't appreciate the fact that you think I'm more "loyal" to the Arab world than to the U.S.; I certainly don't respect you accusing me of unfaithfulness, and I mostly HATE, competely DISRESPECT, unrealistically DISPISE, and hatefully DISLIKE of you questioning my presence in the U.S. While you're busy making death wishes, and striving for war, I was helping many...THAT IS FAITH, and THAT IS LOVE FOR THE COUNTRY...if I had the money, I would have donated %90 of it...

One more thing, I DO care about the Arab world MORE than I'll EVER, EVER, EVER care for the U.S., or any other country. It's my home land, and I LOVE IT. There's nothing wrong with believing in my blood...I believe in my culture (which is NOTHING of what you've heard or probably the misconceptions you've known, and f**ked generalizations you've been taught), and I believe in my people. We have suffered, and we're still standing. I love that. Clearly, you think if I live in the U.S., I should LOVE the U.S. more than anything else. F**K no...

"I will never lose my blood, no matter where I'm living...and no matter where I end up." -- DÛke

 

[Dementia]

Originally posted by DÛke
...WOW! You dislike that, huh? Well, I don't suppose you've heard Dear Bush's childish speech, have you, in which he declared "...you're either with us, or against us..." - tell me, what's the difference between either speeches? NOTHING - again - WHY do you point out something as stupid as Bin Ladin's speech, when you don't point out Bush's?

Yeah, I was thinking much the same thing Duke. I was even thinking of how big a mistake Bush's statement was concerning the Muslum world as soon as I felt how I felt after hearing Bin Laden's statement. Why do I accept Bush's over Bin Laden's? Well, one is telling me I am the enemy, and one is telling me I am his friend. I choose the one that says I am his friend.

Originally posted by DÛke
Those "bombings" will not effect Bin Ladin, and it is only making more normal people wanting to become adept terrorists. Even if Bin Ladin is dead, the U.S. will never be safe. Never. Killing one guy, will result in the making of countless clones of that guy. That's the road the U.S. is aiming for. Good luck.

This is all speculation on your part. "What if's" is all they are. I could say that these bombings WILL effect Bin Laden because they will destroy his bases and such. I could further say that the US will be safe because the action will discurage any more attacks on the US. I know you may disagree, but rememeber MY ASSUMPTIONS ARE NO MORE OR LESS CORRECT THEN YOURS.

 

[MrXarvox]

Yes, that is coldhearted. I am not saying it is right to judge immediately and harshly, but I am saying that if a transgression on such a personal level and with such seriousness as the brutal murder of your entire family would not have you feeling rage, hatred and sadness (whether expressed as violence or tears), you have serious psychological problems.


Side note: Arhar, didn't you say you weren't going to talk about politics anymore?

 

[DÛke]

...

I guess I have a problem then, or so according to you MrX. I would feel mad, sad, and I will be very depressed...yes. I AM, HOWEVER, powerful enough to calm myself down JUST for a bit to think rationally, think of what has happened, and most importantly WHY it happened. Believe it or not, if it turns out that my family deserved it, then they deserve it. I don't think there'd be a justification for such an act, but LETS suppose there is...then the "criminal" is forgiven on my part...

 

[arhar]

Wow Duke. You've donated blood! Guess what. So did I. And money. See, that's your problem. You assume too much. You assume that while I was talking on the 'net, I wasn't doing the same thing you were doing - helping others, while I was.


Arhar, I never disrespected your opinion. You simply don't know what you're talking about.


If that's not disrespect, I don't know what is. While I post many times that this is my OPINION and that is your OPINION, and we both have a right to it, you post that I don't know what I'm talking about. Look, I'm trying really hard to contain myself here, but you're not helping.

Let's try to hold an intelligent discussion, shall we?

Side note: MrXarvox: Yes, I said "after these two threads die out......" Obviously, they haven't yet

 

[MrXarvox]

you say that, anyhow. but can you honestly state, that if I were to walk into your home, with all your family present, and ruthlessly slaughter them, you would stand idly by and THINK about it? I don't think you would. Only someone totally lacking empathy could. You place yourself in a position of a high, exalted paragon of logic and justice, but I doubt you'd live up to it under such circumstances.

 

[Spiderman]

Well, not much to say except...

Gizmo:

Can we please just do something to reign in the Israeli`s though? They are really rocking the boat

Hey, Hey, what about the Palestines? Who's been breaking all these cease-fire that they're trying to have?

DUke: The problem with your scenario is what exactly is a reason that you would understand fully? What if you can't?

 

[Gizmo]

Arhar. Im glad to hear you say that you dont care when 6000 Somalis die, it sounds like the first honest thing said on these boards in a long time. Of course, I got badly flamed for saying similar, but hey - whats the world without a liberal dose of hypocrisy?
Just so long as people are willing to admit their double standards I am happy, at least then we can agree that we have different paradigms. Once you do that the discussion becomes futile.

As for this rather silly 'some guy murders your family' debate. I can tell you exactly what Id do - Id try to tackle the guy, take him down, then call for the Police. Humans think, animals react.

 

[Spiderman]

Sounds to me it's "in character" for arhar... not sure how it's a double standard...