You Make the Card #20

[Spiderman]

Chaos Turtle seemed to allude to a thread already made about this on the front page, but I don't see it so if one earlier pops up I'll merge this...

So the development team doesn't like it's current version of 1GG for 0/3 because it's too hard to handle if it comes out on turn 2. So they're proposing three scenarios:

Mr. Babycakes #1: 1GG, 0/1.

We consider this an interesting option because while Mr. Babycakes #1 may come into play as quickly as the original, it’s quite a bit easier to handle. This version is far more vulnerable in the early game than its predecessor. That said, after the first few turns Mr. Babycakes #1’s growth will be just as dramatic and just as quick as the original’s.

Mr. Babycakes #2: 3G, 0/3.

On one hand, option #2 seems to be “just a more expensive version of the original card.” On the other hand, this card is much easier to play in decks that aren’t running a lot of green-mana-producing lands. You can splash Mr. Babycakes #2 in any deck and you won’t be forced to play predominantly green. A big plus... And, like the original, it’ll live through many of the environment’s available removal spells.

Mr. Babycakes #3: 2GG, 0/4.

Option #1 is the little Babycakes. Option #2 is the mid-sized Babycakes. Option #3 is clearly the BIG Babycakes. While you’re moving your counters from Mr. Babycakes to another creature, “Big” Babycakes is easily the most difficult of the three to remove from play. That said, you pay for this with the in its mana cost, making it difficult to splash in multicolored decks.

I don't have a preference either way, but I'm tending to like option 1 a little more for some reason...

 

[train]

I think if they let us design it this far - it should stand... The world of Magic is a Democracy and we have already voted!!!

 

[Purple_jester]

If we keep it the way it is, it'll probably be rare. Even if we alter him, he'll still be rare. Oh, well.

They seem to forget that Smother will take out the 3-cc Babycakes in the blink of an eye. Never mind.

 

[Mikeymike]

He's not that good against burn starting life as a 0/1, but neither was Phyrexian Negator and he saw play.

He has explosive growth potential, and I think this is actually a smart decision to try to keep him in check.

I'm voting #1 because I think its the most interesting card. The 4CC versions are both quite difficult to deal with, but he gains vulnerability to burn (and -1/-1 counters) to pick up a vital turn, also allowing him to go into more of a weenie strategy.

 

[Spiderman]

Originally posted by train
I think if they let us design it this far - it should stand... The world of Magic is a Democracy and we have already voted!!!

Yeah, but you still have to balance it...

 

[NorrYtt]

Imagine the original Babycakes in Miracle Grow.

Turn 3 Babycakes, Land Grant.
Opponent end of turn Swords; I Gush, Force of Will.

Babycakes is alive and kicking and a 4/7 Elemental.


It seems to me that the Future Future League doesn't have much bounce and has lots of burn if turn 2 0/3 Babycakes is invincible.

Brian Schneider also mentions that you can get a turn 2 Babycakes via Birds of Paradise and Llanowar Elves. But we voted out Llanowar Elves you dolt! Shouldn't FFL be playtesting with card they know will be in 8th?!

I vote 1GG 0/1

 

[EricBess]

Babycakes is already pretty hard to kill. If I already have a +1/+1 counter on him and he's currently a 1/2, then he's unshockable (because he's a 2/3 by the time it resolves).

By making him a 0/1 instead of a 0/3, it helps, but let's face it, no on is going to attack or block with him until he is already pretty big.

I foresee a "Hypnotic Specter" problem with this guy. If you don't kill him immediately, you might as well just concede the game.

Anyway, we can make him "weaker" by increasing the cc so he takes longer to get in play. That way, more spells have already been played and he has to wait...

But realistically, how much is that helping? He's suddently not even touchable by Smother, which we know to be in Onslaught. Do we really want that?

I say option 1. I've thought he was a bit too powerful anyway.

Compare him to Quirion Dryad. She only got counters under certain conditions and only when you cast spells. This guy at 0/1 for an additional G is still much more powerful than that, it it saw tournament play.

 

[Thallid Ice Cream Man]

I'm hovering between options 1 and 3.
Maybe at 4 mana it wouldn't even be able to make an impact... but I'm not sure. I don't think I'll vote.

I am glad they decided to tone down its power. Take Titania's Chosen, for example. It gets a +1/+1 counter for each green spell played, but it's 1/1 for 3 mana.

This was going to have a stronger ability, higher toughness, and another supplemental ability - the only things stopping it from being completely superior to Titania's Chosen (which is no slouch in decks designed for it) are the one less power and additional green cost.

The excuse of Smother is a bad one... by that rationale every nonblack creature in print along with Terror should have sucked compared to Spineless Thug.

 

[Spiderman]

Originally posted by NorrYtt
Brian Schneider also mentions that you can get a turn 2 Babycakes via Birds of Paradise and Llanowar Elves. But we voted out Llanowar Elves you dolt! Shouldn't FFL be playtesting with card they know will be in 8th?!

I vote 1GG 0/1

Don't forget there's other environments besides Standard...

 

[EricBess]

Originally posted by Thallid Ice Cream Man
The excuse of Smother is a bad one... by that rationale every nonblack creature in print along with Terror should have sucked compared to Spineless Thug.

I assume you are responding to me on this one. Either I don't understand what you are saying or you don't understand what I am saying.

My point is that a 3 or 4 toughness, this thing is going to be hard to kill when it first enters play. I suspect that with everyone playing cheap creatures, Smother will be a playable card.

By pushing the cc up to 4, you are actually protecting it. Yes, it comes into play one turn later early game and that may be enough to warrent the trade off. All I'm saying is that we need to realize that it is a trade off and that there are disadvantages to the 3cc as well.

Plus, I'm in favor of keeping the GG in the mana cost.

 

[BigBlue]

How incredibly dumb is that.

Option 1 is by far the best they've come up with and it won't slow it down enough to matter imho.

Well, we'll control everything about the way you create a creature, and let "you make the card", then we'll tell you it's too powerful. BOGUS. They are the persons responsible for picking the choices we got to vote on, why didn't they foresee this at that point? We've created a Monster. A monster which RED will have a problem dealing with no matter what. Big Deal. Blue and Black will always be better at dealing with creatures (bounce and kill rather than damage).

Contrary to the Hypnotic Spectre claim, G has no Dark Ritual, so we won't see it first turn where it would be a bigger problem. And to see it turn 2 in standard will be expensive with only Birds allowing you to do it.

The 4 CC options are just stupid, they are more likely to come out turn 3 than the 3 CC is to be turn 2, and are far worse for RED to deal with.

Perhaps they should print a cycle of all 3, 2GG common, 3G unc and 1GG rare. Talk about cool. Would that get nasty fast? What's that spike that eats all other counters? he'd get huge, and then fling him at your opponent.

 

[NorrYtt]

R&D has stated that they really only playtest Limited, Standard, and Block Constructed. They don't playtest Extended, Type I, or anything else.

 

[Mikeymike]

Well, we'll control everything about the way you create a creature, and let "you make the card", then we'll tell you it's too powerful. BOGUS. They are the persons responsible for picking the choices we got to vote on, why didn't they foresee this at that point? We've created a Monster. A monster which RED will have a problem dealing with no matter what. Big Deal. Blue and Black will always be better at dealing with creatures (bounce and kill rather than damage).

I hear your beef, the principle is messed up. But there are two quick things I want to point out

1 - If the players are designing the specifics of the card, under mob rule vote and not a single representative, you know for a fact that the initial design would be too strong.

2 - R&D realized how much flack they would take for changing the card, they did it for a reason - because 'the people' did not make a balanced card.

Using the most vanilla example I can even think of:
Its succesfully cast on turn 3. By your next turn it is now a 2/4 (your opponent played something). Cast anything during your 1st main phase and it is a 3/5 with little effort - that will only get better.

Now if I go
Turn 1 Bop
Turn 2 Mr. Babycakes
My opponent plays a spell on his turn 2
Turn 3 Mongrel, BoP, discard Rootwalla
He is a 5/7 attacker on turn 3 ready to distrubute his counters to a flyer during his next upkeep.

That is a problem card.

 

[BigBlue]

so, if option one is chosen (my guess is that will be chosen), you have a 5/6 instead of a 5/8 (you added wrong). So now the red player has 1 more option. And late game a 0/1 is useless even with the amazing power, by then many things kill him.

So, you now have to pray that you get babycakes out turn 2, otherwise he's pretty useless. And late is only turn 4+ when any of 3 prominent tournament colors will OWN his oink. it is pretty frickin lame if you ask me. At least at 0/3 he wasn't going to die to shock Even 0/2 would protect him more. late game.

I'm not a fan of creating cards which are ONLY useful early game.

 

[Mikeymike]

Oops, I thought he started out as a 1/3 and not a 0/3. My bad

I disagree about him being worthless in the late game. Chances are you are playing weenie, casting creatures relatively quickly, so he shouldn't take too long to build back up to respectability. If your opponent wants to counter him, fine. If he saves that counter for a different spell, that's immediately another 2 counters on him. Bounce stinks, but if you know your opponent is playing bounce, spread your counters around during the upkeep to help neutralize it - same with black creature kill.

Looking at Shock/Firebolt, as a 0/2 he still survives - too strong IMO. As a 0/2 he simply gets too big too quickly for the majority of good red burn to deal with him.

Oh yeah, he's pretty good with Sylvan Safekeeper also.

 

[EricBess]

Big Blue,

The purpose of this whole thing wasn't to let us create any card we wanted. Let's face it, there are too many people with too many different ideas and this is majority rules going on.

Is there anyone here who has had every one of their votes be the majority vote?

I suppose it's a posibility, but more than likely, no one person has had everything they wanted here.

Regardless, the point of the exercise, like I said, is not to let us build the card, but to give us a taste of what the development cycle is like.

It's entirely possible that when they presented their p/t and cc suggestions, they had a good idea that it was going to be pretty powerful and may need adjusting.

However, there are countless articles spelling out the fact that a lot of stuff that development creates gets rejected or modified by R&D.

That's part of the cycle, and is well within the scope of what we've been doing here.

Or would you prefer that they ban the card we all created right as it is being released?

 

[BigBlue]

I realize that the point wasn't to let us create an Uber card, although they had to know we weren't going to create a grey ogre either.

What bugs me is that THEY gave the cost and P/T suggestions for us to vote on, what bugs me is that after the votes, they changed the rules. I hate it when that happens. When they offered the P/T and Cost votes, they already knew it was going to be a strong card. Why not make the P/T and Cost correct from the onset. I suppose they are human, but it annoys me to no end. Add this to the other things they've done to green recently, while publicly stating they don't hate green and it just irritates me.

A 0/1 for 3 even with this ability is far less likely to see the light of day. I'd rather they made it cost 1 or G to move a counter rather than change the p/t. Now Tim kills him without flinching, Red gets to kill him at will early game or late game. I just see it as a MUCH weaker card. I would have accepted a 0/2 without complaint.

Also it is vulnerable every time you use the ability, as it reverts to a 0/1 (you can't remove some counters, it's all or none.)

 

[train]

Memory Jar was banned before you could play it in Standard... That would be cool to see Babycakes done the same way... That just shows the sheer power of the object...

Yes I want it in Standard, but I think there will be enough to handle it as it was originally designed...

 

[Thallid Ice Cream Man]

Originally posted by BigBlue
Also it is vulnerable every time you use the ability, as it reverts to a 0/1 (you can't remove some counters, it's all or none.)

You can put some of the counters back on Mr. Babycakes though.

I'm guessing MaRo made the original p/t choices... While I didn't realize it at the time, looking back on it, they are all undercosted.

So I don't quite blame the players on this one... although whoever submitted that idea should have realized that the card would have to suck otherwise.

I would rather not have the card banned before it can be used... then again, it would bring the price down... Oh well, I don't play Type II anyway.


My only point about Smother was that it won't define the environment, and shouldn't; this isn't 1994. It is a consideration, but not much more.

 

[BigBlue]

Sorry if this is false, but I can't recall a single creature which was banned . . . or restricted.

They are simply to easy to deal with.

While you can redistribute those counters back to it (something I hadn't thought of . . . DOH!) it would still be a 0/1 subject to instants wouldn't it, and would you lose any counters designated for those creatures? do you pick the targets as the effect resolves or on announcement?

Also, I give up. You are all correct, a 0/3 was overachieving, but I think a 0/1 is underachieving. Red is supposed to be an ally of green, so to make the arguements for shock seems dumb to me. But I guess the color formations have gone by the wayside anymore, and it's every color for itself.