Wizards gives blue back Counterspell...

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by orgg, Aug 29, 2004.

  1. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    \

    So broken...
  2. Notepad Seffy Sefro

    Agreed, entirely. First thing I thought when I saw it was that it was a land fetch spell for blue that came with a 2/2 body. Very nice deal, even if it were green. Although, it also searches for just about every other sinister budget artifact out there, including Engineered Explosives and Spellbombs. Evil!

    I know the theme is "artifact searcher" but they really should've given this type of tutor+body ability to a black/green card. Failing that (in a non-gold block) they should've done a land searcher in green with the 2/2 body, or a tutor with a drawback in black.
  3. Ephraim New Member

    As far as Trinket Mage is concerned, the problem does not lie with blue. Yes, there are some powerful artifacts that it can search for, but Chalice of the Void and Engineered Explosives also require special commitments in deckbuilding to use effectively. The fact that it can dig up artifact lands can not be seen as WotC giving blue an ability that's too strong. Rather, it is further evidence for something that WotC has already stated: They probably never should have created a cycle of artifact lands with no real drawback to them. They just interact far too well with the other cards in the set.
  4. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I was thinking of using it with Black Lotus or LED actually...

    That's where it really becomes insane, especially with help from Auriok Salvagers...

    Spellbombs work too, but in Type I the thing is just scary...
  5. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    SeFRo: The Draw-Go deck you mentin actually had Stalking Stones as well as Rainbow Efreet, for a total of 5 win conditions. You also neglected to mention the real problem card in the deck, Nevinyrral's Disk. Without that -- and 4 of them -- the deck is just a pile of cards.

    Isty: I hope you're kidding. Forbid's gone, so what does Shard Phoenix's return have to do with blue's countering power?

    Mikeymike: You make the best arguments about blue's power even in the face of reduced counter-ability. But I think you're being overly broad. Madness was only an issue becuase of Wonder; even Circular Logic was fair. Wild Mongrel was a much bigger problem.
  6. Homestar Who invited this guy?

    I actually have a Signed card collection

    ............

    k so maybe i dont

    ..........


    but i do have 7 signatured cards, my most valueable is a foil 7th edition wrath of god signed by kev walker :)
  7. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I don't think it was the artifact lands cycle interacting too well with the set- it was more the affinity mechanic... and blue's lessers like thirst for knowledge which bring into the mix the already powerful drawing, and happen to work so well with art. lands... but it isn't particular to artifact lands...

    Otherwise - what real affect did they have?...

    Using it now with crucible could be deadly though, and "we" all made that one...
  8. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    But the issue at hand...

    This new counterspell sucks. Even Dissipate is better...
  9. Ephraim New Member

    I believe that you are mistaken, Oversoul, inasmuch as Dissipate was a pretty good card. Certainly, Forbid was better, but buyback had plenty of utile cards associated with it. Certainly, Dissipate was better than this, but I hardly think that statement logically leads to, "therefore, this card sucks." Rather, I think that the combination of a Dissipate-like effect and a Memory Lapse-like effect in a single card will make this card playable in block, draft, and Type 2, particularly considering the alternative lack of decent counter magic.
  10. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    If I were to lower my standard of "good" to the level of Dissipate, then perhaps I might be mistaken. Even then it seems unlikely, since this thing has a triple blue requirement, using the Memory Lapse option of the card is almost entirely useless (but not quite) and the other option is worse than Dissipate's ability.

    However, I have no need for that, since Dissipate itself isn't really good. Counterspell, Mana Drain, Force of Will, Force Spike, Daze, Mana Leak, Arcane Denial, Rewind, and possibly even Dismiss are all better counters. Well, some of that is certainly debateable, but I never use Dissipate and probably won't be put into a deckbuilding situation where I would have to. Even if I did, and even if it were a 4-of, I would probably still not be considering this new card...
  11. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    "Triple blue requirement"? I thought this thing only had a double blue, 3 cc?
  12. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    You're right, I am being broad. But that is kind of my point (to an extent at least). One of the things I'm trying to point out is that for all WotC's talk that they are trying to power down blue, it often (almost always) has great cards that play well with the 'block mechanic'. Let me try looking at this block by block:

    Take it easy on my grades here.
    * Mechanic / Mechanic Strength / Blue's strenth within the mechanic * (1 lowest, 10 highest)
    * Odyssey Block *
    Flashback / 8 / 7 (Deep Analysis, Quiet Spec)
    Threshold / 6 / 7 (Due to its ability to get threshold working)
    Madness-Pitching / 10 / 9

    * Onslaught *
    Morph / 4 / 3
    Tribal / 5 / 3
    Cycling / 8 / 5
    Storm / 8 / 10

    * Mirrodin *
    Affinity / 10 / 9
    Imprint / 4 / 8
    Entwine / 4 / 3
    Sunburst / ? / 3 (all but green are 3's)
    Scry 8 / 10

    So, did Blue get strength in the good mechanics, or were the mechanics good b/c they had access to blue? 6 of one, half a dozen of the other I suppose. Still don't know if there is any truth to it, but it is interesting to see, and it might provide a little support to my "card-draw rules all" theory of blue.

    Regarding Madness, Wild Mongrel did make that deck tick. But blue provided all of the fuel. Though it was a green dominated deck, it wouldn't have been a tier 1 deck without blue and its many machinations. It was simply a synergy machine.

    And I agree that Wild Mongrel was a problem, but I'll save that discussion for an 'unbalanced green' thread/tangent :D.
  13. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I think your grading scale is just... but I'd up blue's numbers by 1 point in some instances... (I think if it out-does all other colors for that mechanic, it is a 10...)

    (and the gradings can even be 2,4,6,8,10...
    There's only 5 colors - that's 2 points each...)
  14. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Well, it does say 1UU at the beginning of this thread. I was misinformed elsewhere then. Nevermind the triple-blue thing...

    It's still not as good as Dissipate, although I guess it's also not too much worse...
  15. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Dissipate was fine. By today's standards, it's even good.

    Now Dismiss... man, I'm still disappointed that "we" chose Rewind over it for 8th.

    Btw, Mikeymike: that's a fair assessment I think.
  16. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    More "choose the chaff" though. Sorry, you can't have Counterspell, so here are two inferior cards to choose from...

    I'm all for the reprinting of Counterspell...

    ...and Dark Ritual...

    ...and Lightning Bolt...

    ...and...
  17. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Of course, because they're the "original" cheap spells for their effects. Who wouldn't want to use those when choosing between them and Cabal Ritual (?) and Shock? Regrowth over Elven Cache? Black Lotus over Lion's Eye Diamond?

    I think Counterspell was borderline for so long because it cost UU, but I guess it was decided that was too cheap for always stopping a spell unconditionally.
  18. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Well, the people who decided that are scrubs, by my new definition of the word... ;)

    Having Counterspell makes blue more powerful. Having Dark Ritual makes black more powerful. You can have both...

    Rotating them out and then making crappy new versions will work only as long as people are willing to play in formats that rotate...

    Raisin makes this new Counterspell completely useless, since no one would use it over a real Counterspell...
  19. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Right. You don't play in the Standard format so you shouldn't care; you have access to all the Counterspells and Dark Rituals you can muster. Have at it.

    Unfortunately for you, it HAS been shown that people are willing to play in rotating formats so that's here to stay...
  20. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    So far that's been true, but the revolution is coming... :)

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