Why fear change?

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by The Magic Jackal, Jan 26, 2000.

  1. The Magic Jackal Veteran CPA Member<BR><font co

    I come across a startling fact while reading many posts- You all fear change! Why I ask? Change is good. Without change, you wouldn't have a computer to write about how you hate change. There would be not precious M:tg. Everyone would be sitting in a cave somewhere tying to figure out how to make a wheel. Change is good, very good.
  2. TomB Administrative Assistant

    I agree, oh Magic one, that change is good, that evolution is important, and that to not change is to accept stagnation.

    But there's a difference between change, and RADICAL change, especially when you're considering a successful product.

    If sales are down, and you can't seem to move any product, then, indeed, radical change is indicated.

    But when you're product is flying off of the shelves, and thousands of people are buying it on a regular basis...when people describe the level of their passion for your product as an addiction, well, in my opinion, any changes should be made VERY carefully, and with a great deal of attention to the concept of continuity.

    WotC, obviously, didn't feel that way. :(

    The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Sales are down, interest is down, and really, the only people talking about the game anymore are people like us who want to make WotC see the error in their ways.

    You're right in that the wheel would never have been invented had people been content to walk.

    But corporations all over America are dying because of people in middle management continually trying to RE-INVENT the damn thing!

    Let's not let that happen to Magic.

    TomB
    CPA Member
  3. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    :) That would be directed at me, methinks...

    Allow me to rephrase. Change is fine. The changes that have been made to the Dojo are rather annoying/upsetting. I _don't_ like those changes.

    The changes to Magic itself? Here come da' rants, baby!

    The big problem with the changes that have been made is that they aren't always helping players. WotC is making changes that seem favorable only to their financial situation. Think about it. What is 6th (aka 666th) edition, according to WotC? Well, it's a way to draw new players into the game. Ok, that's fine. New players = New people to play against. It also means that WotC gets lotsa dough as these people try to get the cards they need to compete.

    Additionally, many older players quit because of 6th edition. (Please note: It's fairly easy to predict that older players would quit with the oncoming rules changes.) Think about why WotC would do that. Which group is going to earn them money? Newbies who _need_ lots of new cards, and therefore buy packs, which WotC profits from? Or older players who don't need commons and uncommons, and therefore buy singles, which WotC doesn't profit from?

    Now, we _are_ getting new players 'cause of 6th edition. But we're losing even more old ones. 'Bad Thing' (tm). And it's fairly obvious WotC is basically trying to make more money off it.

    The same can be shown for foils. You get foils mostly in packs, due to high cost outside of packs. So, more people will buy packs. More money for WotC.

    WotC is a money hungry machine, that's why they've turned to Pokemon now, instead of supporting Magic. In a year, Pokemon will be dead or dying. Already, the decline is somewhat obvious. Magic will remain, but players might not. Basically, this the whole argument the CPA is founded on. WotC is screwing up our game, let's fix it. :)

    As always, my opinion, flame ME, not my relatives and friends.
  4. The Magic Jackal Veteran CPA Member<BR><font co

    I beg to differ. Magic is not going downhill. As a highschool student, I know many people who play magic, and try to encourage even more to play. Recently a friend of mine and I have been trying to get more people to start playing, and it works. Everyone has friends, so tell them about magic! Magic players are the sterotypical friendless-geeks (no offense to the friendless geeks).

    My point is this, It's up to the magic players to keep the game alive, not WoTC. WoTC is not god, they can't make people play, but we can. Make a difference. If you trulylove the game you will help to keep it alive.
  5. ChasDen Moderator

    I have always believed that everyone is entitled to their opinion. That being said where in the world are all these supposed facts and figures coming from? Sales and interest down? Overall, just in your local store or within your local group? Pre Christmas sales figures showed Pokemon as the #1 ccg and magic as #2. That was expected with the media frenzy and is now diminishing and will probably be a memory by next Christmas. Post Christmas figures still show Pokemon #1 and magic #2. If interest is down take a look at the Dec. issue of Scrye on page 100 at the tournament calendar. This is a list of local stores who conduct local sanctioned arena play. I count 22 states listed. Stores must submit a form to appear. I know that 4 of the big stores within 60 miles of ours run arena but are not listed because we are too busy to fill out the forms. So think of all the places playing but not advertising. A year ago you could find maybe 75 pages of mtg auctions on ebay, but now it is more often than not, 200 + pages all the time. 95 percent of these auctions are for NEW cards, not someone selling all their stuff because they are getting out. Look at the advertising in the magazines. Compare the names of the advertisers to those in the same magazine a year ago. If sales and interest is down so much, who are these stores selling to and why is there so many people winning all those auctions? Every week we call to place an order, something is put on back order. 2 weeks ago I asked them if they were getting less cards or are they just selling more. I was told by our supplier they are buying almost double, and still can not get enough Saga. Saga is the fastest selling expansion in the market right now but people don’t tell you that. Why would some one quit playing after 6th edition rules????? What was changed, that is so horrible???? 98% of the cards STILL play the same way. The outcome is the same. As a CASUAL player who hates the “tournament” attitude of WOTC, one should welcome the new rules. Most of the new rulings have eliminated the abusing of card combos that put you to your knees on turn 3 (something a casual player should despise). Game mechanics have been streamlined and as far as I can see, improved. Sure some of the rule changes made some of my favorite combos worthless, but created a few new tricks too. Without starting the whole …wotc is screwing up our game argument again, guess again. Business is good, new players are playing, the tournaments are still on this year and life goes on. If some of the “old timers” are dropping out, don’t let the door hit ‘um in the… Around here we still sell plenty of waylays, tinkers, tutors, and all the other banned cards. People play with them, set their own rules and have fun. I overheard a few kids playing after the last banned list came out. “So are we going to stop playing with those cards now?” “Na, screw them, were not playing for any money or in any stupid tournament right?” “Cool, I really like kicking your butt”. He then played his crop rotation to get his island and two turns later tinkered out his Phyrexian Colossus and crushed his opponent in 2 attacks. “damn, I love this game” he said.

    Is the glass half full or half empty?

    Life is too short
    Enjoy while you can !
  6. theorgg Slob

    A reply to Jackle:

    I am NOT a friendless geek. I have SIX good friends. and on another note, Six in latin is Sex.

    so I guess you could say I have a sex life, too...
    though I don't say it...


    and as for the glass, I HATE the question. it all depends. if you've just took a picture of water out and poured half a glass, it's half-ful. if you take a full glass of tea and down half of it, it's half-empty. it all depends on the method the median was reached by.

    any flames to me for being soooo off-topic or for over-use of the dash sym-bol are un-welcomed, but let them come!!

    NIII!!!
    Neeeeeee!!

    ranting...

    :)
    sorry...
  7. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    Jackal, once again, I must rephrase. Magic is not going downhill. Magic rules. It's by far the best game I've ever played. It will remain as such.

    _WotC_ is going downhill. It's not directly damaging the game, it's just not drawing in players like I think they should be. It's a matter of perspective. I personally don't like it, others, I'm sure, don't mind, or even do like it.

    Anyways, once again, it's a perspective thing. Half-empty, IMHO. Half-full, Everyone else's HO. :)

    That's my job, rant my opinion.
  8. TomB Administrative Assistant

    Chuck-
    First of all, I would like to say thank you for your kind offer to host our site, et,al. I cannot tell you just how much I appreciate it.

    Which is why I really have absolutely no desire to argue with you about this.

    I do feel compelled, however, to clarify my position concerning the statements I made. You are correct that I stated sales and interest are down but I neglected to say exactly where, or to provide proof, and you are right, in that I do not have proof. I was just making a statement based on personal observations, and should have qualified my statement by adding "in my area". Chicago's western suburbs are not the whole world, or even a microcosm of it, and perhaps I would do well to remember that.

    I do not go to ebay for cards, or anything else, but I am glad to hear Magic is doing well there. I stopped reading Scrye a while ago too, though I do have a subscription to Inquest, and had one to the Duelist. What I remember of the tourney listings for Scrye was that they rarely, if ever, had listings for anything within an hour's drive from my house.

    My comments about the broken-ness of Saga have been made already on other threads. I'm more concerned about the apparent disinterest people have in Mercadian Masques. It's a great sealed/draft set, but it just seems to me that for constructed play it's not making the cut.

    My feelings about 6th ed. rules are also a matter of public record, and are the main reason I joined the CPA. Have you read our mission statement? Dissatisfaction with WotC's policies are the reason we're here. We see WotC making changes for no good reason, except to put more money into their own pockets, and alienating people like me who've spent thousands of dollars on their products. As Zadok said, this is a 'Bad Thing'.

    In other words, telling your new customers you don't give a $h!t about your old customers isn't very good business. Telling the old ones not to let the door hit them in the a$$ on their way out isn't a very good way to give new customers any loyalty to your product.

    You are right, that people do not HAVE to abide by WotC's rulings, but many of us try to. Magic was intended, I believe, as a social game, where not only can you play amongst your friends, but you can also meet new people to be friends with through the game. You need a set of core rules to do this, and when those core rules are messed with people WILL complain.

    It's our nature. :)

    That glass started out full, I think, but half of it has drained out. Sometimes I feel like that stupid goldfish in the commercial, who wishes someone would come along and flip his bag back over, and fast.

    Flip me, and then I will feel it's half full, instead of the other way around.

    TomB
    CPA Member
  9. ChasDen Moderator

    To All,
    Your welcome for the assistance Kathy and I can offer. Our assistance has nothing to do with our views and discussions, SO PLEASE do not agree with anything I say just because I host your site. The whole purpose of these message boards is to discus, disagree and hopefully learn.

    To Tom,
    Prepare to flip, so to speak. As a kid I remember a friend of mine telling a story about how he made out with this girl we all knew. Harmless story for a 10 year old, and most of us can relate. A few of us knew he was lying and so did he at first. Over time he told this story so much and so often, that he and many others began believing it. My biggest concern is that if enough people say that Magic is dead or dying, the game sucks now because of the rules, and WOTC is destroying it for us, people will start to believe it to be the truth. From a retailers point of view, WOTC has done nothing to “destroy” this game – but some players have. In another thread, there is a discussion of a one time leader on the net who has all but withered away and become nothing but a huge advertisement (there is a true example of a “money hungry machine”). Business must profit, that is life, and the game will survive. I just opened suitcase and removed all the filters. There are just under 8000 cards in print, some are duplicates, but for sure at least 5000+ unique cards. IS it possible to create a set of rules that will apply to, and be uniform with over 25,000,000 different possibilities? NO. When I began playing, I found the “game” easy to play. As I played a little more I discovered that “rules layering” took as much time as the play did. The current rules are just what you ask for: “core rules”. I still know people that think it is ok to have 15 counter spells in their deck, and they are having a blast playing. I do not see how WOTC has told their players they don’t give a $h!t. Perhaps some people should not take things so serious. As a reasonable person, do you really believe that they make decisions just to upset the casual player? Instead of ranting how bad it is, do something about it. I suggest that each member do the following:
    1. Teach at least 1 new person how to play.
    2. Invite someone over to play at least once a month.
    3. Donate 100 or so, so so cards and a small set of the rules to your local organization of your choice that helps kids. (around here there is group of doctors wives who collect games and toys for kids in the local children’s hospital.
    4. Support your local shop or “hang out” so they will be around for you to bug when the new cards come out or need “that” card right now.
    5. Spend some constructive time each month to promote the game instead of convincing everyone else it is doomed.
    In closing I will say to anyone “new” or “old” who would rather spend all their time trying to upset the apple cart, don’t let the door hit you in the a$$. That kind of customer loyalty is counterproductive, gets rather boring after a while and does nothing to promote the game.

    Note: my comments are not directed “at” anyone, but to each of us. The founders of this site have taken the first leap, now what? Take it to the next level, and they will come, or was that baseball?

    Life is short
    I choose to enjoy it,
    ‘cuz the kid starts driving soon
  10. theorgg Slob

    ;) I do all that stuff...
    'cept for the hospitals. don't have enough cards to be giving them away that often.
    to me, the game is not dying. new people are coming in at a rate only twice as slow as the members on this board... :)

    This game will extend into the next millinium, if we're lucky and don't screw it up.

    that's right. If WE don't screw it up. the only way WOTC will stop printing magic is if we, the consumer, do not buy it.

    "support WOTC! buy more Magic!"
  11. The Magic Jackal Veteran CPA Member<BR><font co

    If JFK played magic I think he would say this...

    "Ask not what WoTC can do for you, Ask what you can do for WoTC"

    WoTC has given you years of fun with magic. So they changed it a little (well, more that a little), you owe them for all of the memories. Maybe I'm just an overloyal customer, but I really think most people are being unfair to WoTC.

    and no Offense to the Orgg, I didn't mean that all Magic players are friendless geeks. In fact, I know a lot of friendless geeks, and only two play magic.
  12. TomB Administrative Assistant

    Gentlemen,
    Please do not misunderstand me. I'm not trying to destroy this game. I love this game. I'm trying to preserve it, and if I sometimes seem a bit overzealous I apologize.

    Chuck, I did support my local stores. I bought all my cards there, traded with people fairly, and I always had a really good time playing, win or lose. I taught new players how to play better whenever I could, and I helped them with their decks. I made a lot of good friends that way. I always considered myself an ambassador of the game, and was always very positive about it.

    But I guess my support wasn't enough, because one by one they all went out of business. This made me angry with WotC for not supporting these stores better, I'll admit.

    Then, when 6th came out, I found that everything I once knew about the game was changed, some of it ridiculously illogically, and I wanted out. As numerous others have pointed out, I was not alone in this feeling.

    Then the CPA came along, and offered another alternative. I could join with those others and fight for the game I love. Never being one to give up easy, I jumped at the chance.

    The CPA was founded with the belief that WotC has forgotten the casual player in their effort to appease the pros and attract new players. By fighting together we can make them see the light, and make 7th edition something we can ALL be proud of.

    Let's do it!

    TomB
    CPA Member
  13. Baron Sengir CPA Founder, Vampire Legend

    Amen, TomB. I couldn't have said it any better.

    When I first thought of the Casual Players Alliance (Then called the Sengir Army. Thank God Ferret came up with a better name) it was for reasons TomB and arhar have already mentioned. WotC doesn't seem to support the Casual Player very much. Granted, Jackal, they did give us this game which we all love very much and are obviously willing to fight for but what does that matter when we see product quality going downhill despite the multitude of people crying out against the changes?

    Between the Waylay ruling, the 666e mess and even the cancelling of Unglued II, WotC has shown that it doesn't listen to us. I don't want to see this game stagnate. If they continue to ignore us, eventually people will get sick of it and leave. That, not Pokemon, is the real threat to Magic.

    The CPA's original concept was a forum where WotC could read the opinions and hear the voices of the common player. We could give advice on how to make the best decisions possible. They don't have to take the advice, but at least they know how we feel.

    Since then it's grown into so much more thanks to the dedication of all of us and a couple in particular (you know who you are. Take a bow.) I would really like to see us at least get WotC's attention.

    We don't fear change. We fear regression in place of progress. Magic is not dying but it could certainly use a hand right now. I want us to be that hand if at all possible. I think we can really make a difference.

    I remain
    The Baron
    Cue the Patriotic Music ...
  14. ChasDen Moderator

    First consider the following, If I didn’t think your group had any potential do you think I would do what I am doing. All I asked from you guys to host your site was a ten dollar bill to cover the login account for Mike. To date I have never received it and for that matter never even asked. It’s no big deal. I think that you do have some real issues that people will share. Mike does not have access to the raw log files, I do. You guys get a lot of traffic, BUT they don’t come back for the most part. For gods sake look at your top 10 posters on the bbs, the 10th place guy on the list has only posted 17 times. I jumped in on this thread because like most, it started taking on the blah blah wotc sucks tone. My point of view is from a person who deals with people every day who love the game and share some of your ideas. To quote “The CPA's original concept was a forum where WotC could read the opinions and hear the voices of the common player.” My point here is if you want to make any difference, you need to keep people coming back. If the core of your group is going to doom and gloom everything about this game and its industry, people will never come back. I don’t feel you should abandon your original intentions, IMHO your just scaring people off. With the traffic you guys have seen your member base should be 1390 by now instead of 139.
  15. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    Chuck! I'll cover that bill right now. I'd like to chip in my share. (Ferret's put in his already as we all know.)

    You know guys... He has a very big point. Isn't that what happened to the Dojo? All the pros started talking about the weakness of Mercadian Masques and the brokenness of Urza's Trilogy? Personally, as much as there aren't any power cards in Masques, I feel that it's power level is the same as what I started out with: Revised and Fallen Empires. Some of you may think that's just plain weak, but I loved Fallen Empires for the story and the cards. Does anyone have any idea how much I had to trade to get all R. Kane-Ferguson versions of the cards I liked? My brother was a real butthole about it too! :) Anyway, I think Chuck is right about scaring people away. I think the Issues and Rants section should have more stuff like debates on Flame Rift being a viable card for Multiplayer compared to Earthquake. Everybody, if think of a topic, put it up! Let's debate and have some fun instead of complaining! :)

    Chuck, thanks for the point of view. I know a lot of us are unhappy and doomsayers (I've done it myself with Waylay, I know), but every once in a while, that needs take the backstage seat while more important issues come into the spotlight. I'm going to post some topics right now.
  16. Ed Sullivan CPA Founder, Web Guy

    RE: What Chuck said

    While I agree with you to some extent, you did also share some stats with me from those log files.
    You said that we are scaring of many people and they're not coming back. a) Yes, many aren't officially "joining", there is still a possibility that they wish to lurk. Hell, there's always lurkers! b) We're not getting much traffic to the main page ( www.magic-singles.com/cpa/ ) -- at max 30 per day. Since most of those AREN'T coming from referrers (aka, clicked on a link), they have the page bookmarked. Which means that they have already heard of us -- in other words, returning.
    And, as we determined, most people are just coming to the message boards -- they are the life of this site anyway. I mean, that's all I do myself. (Granted, I read all the articles before they're posted :)) And our overall traffic is growing by week. The first week of '00, we sent about 50 million bytes (47 megabytes) traffic. By week 3, we sent over 70 million bytes, about 67 megabytes. Granted, on the large scale of the web that is, literally, nothing.

    BUT, that does prove that the site is still growing. While our member base hasn't grown by more than 25 in that time. And most of those people (most) don't even post.

    Anyway, I'm kinda cutting that short (I being made to go out and shovel :cool:), but in conclusion -- yes, we are scaring some people off. But doesn't the dojo's shear amount of ads and (some) very technical articles do that? (Remember the ones about probability, etc) The biggest problem (and it is a big problem) is bringing the traffic in -- not keeping them here. (If only damn Yahoo! would list us)

    -mike
  17. Baron Sengir CPA Founder, Vampire Legend

    Hmmm ... interesting point, Chas. I'll have to take that into consideration since it makes a lot of sense to me. I honestly had never even thought about that.

    I don't like to think that the CPA has an overall negative attitude but it looks like it may have developed one. That's kind of sad but never forget that intermixed with all these negative feelings are genuine desires to make this game better. If we're upset about current issues we shouldn't have to pretend we're not.

    I hope our attitude hasn't scared anyone off. While I won't pretend to be completely happy about the state of Magic currently, I, for one will try to be more optomistic. I mean, what the heck, it couldn't hurt.

    I remain
    The Baron
    Happy Vampire Legend
  18. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    But... But... My generally pessimistic mind doesn't support this 'optimism' thing I keep hearing about. :) But I'll try anyways.

    Btw, Baron, your statement about this being a forum for WotC... Why not? In other words, can we alert WotC to our existance, tell them, 'Lookit us, we're BACK,' kinda thing? In other words, let's do something.
  19. Baron Sengir CPA Founder, Vampire Legend

    Good call, Zad. If anyone has any ideas as to whom at WotC I should send this notice, let me know. I think I have Mark Rosewater's e-mail addy somewhere. LMK if there's anyone else you can think of.

    I remain
    The Baron
    PR Man once again! :)
  20. theorgg Slob

    You could try elain...
    Dune has her address... :)

    seriously, if you can find peter adkinson's address(elain, mabe?...), he would be a good person to get in contact with.

    and mabe Mr. Garfield, the GENIOUS who created the game we all love...

    hope that helped...

Share This Page