What is a card shop to do?

[Wizard2000]

I have been talking to some other card sellers on the internet and some that own shops and I have seen a disturbing trend. Beginning with Masques all of the shop owners told me that they stopped making any money off magic and that they were lucky to break even. The same is true for me as well. The only thing that any of us are able to make money off of are the Pokemon cards and their values are declining quickly. Once Pokemon dries up what will we have for income? I dunno, but I do know that it won't be long before tons of card shop owners go into the red due to the lack of interest in this game. We see set after set of weak shit coming from the R&D at WotC. Fading? Give it up.. nice try, but instead of coming up with more stupid mechanics, work on the core of your game!!That or you see 10 good rares, then 34 rares that should be F%^*)@Q^ commons!! Then they wonder why a rare sells on eBay for $0.50?? I am lucky to give some of this shit away! Should I go into the business of paying others to take my inventory of worthless rares that nobody wants??? Yeah, I'll run down to the bank now and get a loan so I can start paying them instead!!! WTF!!

Anyway... just letting my anger over this go... it is rather hard to pay your bills when you buy $360 worth of cards and you get about $300 back on average. Who will be left before 2001? Guess we will find out! It certainly won't be me and the others I talked to!

*walks off in disgust*

 

[Zadok001]

Buy packs. Our local card shop is doing quite well, I believe. (This is probably partially due to myself and four or five other players holdly informal drafts every couple weeks.) Most people who go in there buy packs or boxes, not singles. In fact, the store has all but eliminated it's single supply. There's a little shelf with a few duels, foils, and higher-demand rares, but the rest is set aside for people who ask for card specifically. E-bay is the key site for people who really want singles, thus that market is gone.

The next problem, I think, is how cheap the boxes can be online; less than $70. If the stores can't compete with that, then they can't stay in buisness. Therefore, single packs are the best way to go. They sell for the same amount in stores as online, so they're much more convientent.

Anyways, just my random 'posting 5 minutes after waking up at 11:40 AM' stance. (I don't have to do a damn thing today! Yes! Peace and quiet at last!)

 

[Mr_Pestilence]

I agree with everything you said. While reading your post, I had an odd thought:

maybe WotC wants to temporarily ruin the game, in order to drive the retailers away. When the field is clear, they can restore the game, and control the retailing themselves through their Gamekeeper stores.

Backed by Hasbro now, WotC could lose money long enough to ruin their competition, banking on future profits.

Magic sales notwithstanding, sales are down across the entire gaming industry. Nothing seems to stay hot for long. Magic was really hot for a few years, but just seemed to go into a tail spin about the time 5th Edition came out. 6th was a huge disappointment of course, but sales didn't drop that much, because 5th Ed. sales were so bad.

Pokemon is doing the same thing - how many times can you get excited about opening a Charizard? Gotta catch'em all? Apparently, most kids already have.

If WotC wants to really increase sales, there is only one choice - reprint the Power 9. These are the most fabled Magic cards ever made, and those of us without'em are tired of playing with proxies. Screw the reprint policy - if retailers are going down, what "investment" is there to protect? Collectors be damned - Magic is a game, not an investment - that's what the stock market is for. And support Type I - have a few high profile tournaments, with Pro-Tour/Grand Prix-level money.

In my opinion, this is what has to happen. How can Magic be a "classic" game if most of the players don't have "classic" cards? What if Chess players had to play all Pawns, and only a few people had Queens? How long would the game last?

The rules are becoming more stable, which is good. Now is the time to bring back what made Magic great in the first place, instead of giving us cards that quickly become boring.
***************

 

[Wizard2000]

I had thought about WotC trying to kill us all and selling solely through their site, but that won't happen. There are people on the net making tons off of Magic but they have the resources to buy like 50 cases of the newest expansion and open them up for the next 3 months til the next expansion. Buying in this mass quantity they can get boxes for way less than anyone else. It's like the Wal-Mart syndrome.

What I do not get is why a person would pay for a pack and have no idea what they are getting when they can go to a web site like mine or any other and pick up the cards that they need to make sets. You only use 4 of any card... buying packs you could end up with tons of one card, none of another. I sell common sets, uncommon sets, and all rares from the most recent sets.

*takes a deep breath*

I started playing Magic around when Weatherlight was new.. I bought packs and packs and more packs and I would up with 50,000 of some commons, 8 or 9 of some uncommons, and 4-6 of the rares, then some cards I'd have like 1 or 2 of and had to go elsewhere. I finally realized that just purchasing sets was the way to go and the internet went a long way for me. Off that idea I started my own card store... it did well for a while... but now it is doing miserably.

Think of Magic this way... compare Magic to poker. Poker uses a standard set of cards that we have used for God knows how long. You have 4 K, 4 Q, J, etc... all of varying values. In my mind I see Magic as a variant of Poker. The rares are your Kings and Queens, the uncommons are your high number cards, your commons are the low number cards. The commons are vital to the game and may help you win (4 of a kind) but are not usually treated with the same respect as the Kings and Aces (Thorn Elemental). The deck of cards we use to play poker has remained for many many years, but Magic keeps changing. I am burned out on change and I want the game of Magic to remain somewhat constant. When they put out 5th and 6th Ed they dropped out a lot of cards that I felt were the basic cards that Magic would have forever. To me this was the biggest mistake that WotC could make. They could do new art, but the cards should have stayed. The basic set is just that... it is the deck of cards (like in poker) that we use to play Magic, and should not go through major changes like it did. The expansion sets are your variety, they are the new cards that we should mix with the basic set. This keeps the game from being entirely the same, but the basic game is not lost. At this point I don't know of anyone that uses cards from 6th except the tutors and City of Brass. Out of 350 cards these are all that we use? Where are my 10s, my 6's? They are lost and so is what made Magic the game that it should have always been. This part should have not changed, but it did. IMHO that is what is wrong, and that is what needs to be fixed if WotC ever wants to see Magic become as popular and common as a game of Poker. They had it within their grasp, but I am not sure that they will ever be close to that again.

 

[Wizard2000]

*looks up*

I had no idea I typed that much... but anyway... I am going through a lot of stress at the moment.

In response to the P9 reprinting mentioned by Mr_Pestilence... I do not believe that this would be a good idea. If WotC did this, it would be the end of Magic. All would be lost as nobody would care about any cards except these 9. You have to remember that the game was created by some guys in their basement or whereever and they were capable of mistakes. Having only their little pool of players they could not have seen how stupidly powerful these P9 were. They were dropped out by the time 4th Ed came and for good reasons that I can understand. Dropping incinerate, Sengir Vampire, Serra Angel, and many other non-P9, basic set type cards is where they did make mistakes. Playing with the P9 takes little effort and makes the game less strategic and more of a game of "3 turn kill? Man I thought I could do it in 2!!"

If people were to forget that the P9 existed, to let them sit in the card shops and collect dust, then I think the whole community would be better off. Let them be remembered as an alpha, beta, UL mistake that was finally realized and corrected. Magic was the first game of its kind and was bound to have some problems in its infancy.

 

[theorgg]

can somone tell me WHY incenerate is always being clamored for reprinting?
IT SCREWS REGENERATION!
that is BAD!
why do you want to kill regeneration so bad?

Red shouldn't do that...

print Volcanic Hammer, for the love of God!

 

[Chaos Turtle]

<font size="2" color="#FF6000">* Chaos Turtle following Orgg's tangent...</font>
Incinerate should return with a new name and a 2R mana cost...regen-hosing is not a bad thing....! Green's got it too easy now!

<font size="2" color="#FF6000">* Chaos Turtle back on the subject</font>
random thoughts:

I am all for reprinting the true "classic" cards, Serra Angel and the like.

RE: Packs vs. singles

There is no contest for me here... I don't buy packs except to draft... I no longer buy boxes, either (last time was when I split a box of Legacy)... singles are the way to go and (apologies, Wiz) online auctions are the place to go... it's a must though, to know what the "big" cards will be before the whole world does (got Squees & Ports for $6-12 instead of $12-25) which is hard when the spoiler hits a month before prerelease weekend... don't bid more than what you'll pay, either (I know, Wiz, it keeps getting worse, sorry) so bid a low amount in as many auctions as you can find, you may win one or more and you can save a bundle...

If I could find a reputable seller who will sell for good prices outside of auction and who has what I'm looking for (instead of: out of Fish-catchers and Elf-catchers already? jeez...what good are-ya!?).


The point? I'm not sure... but fading's kinda cool, and I bought 4 Parallax Waves (less than 9 bux total).
I do agree that thre are just too many cards... reprint some good stuff in 7th, then cut back to 2 new set a year, with 2 standalone's every 3 years, and one new base set every 3.

Charizard? I opened my first last week. 2 in fact! Blastoise's too! Wanna buy my PokeFoils (base set 1, 2nd print).

 

[Quill]

You know..I've been thinking about this for a long time. Ebay is really good for the consumer, no doubt about that. There's always plenty of deals to be found. But its probably killing a lot of local hobby shops as well as other small businesses just like Wal-Mart does. Where will that leave the consumer down the line? I'm not sure, but as someone who lives in a small town where there is no place to shop other than Wal-Mart I know it sucks. We used to have a comic/card shop here but they went under because of the same things you guys are talking about now. I think I would rather spend a little extra money to support a good specialty retailer and develop a good relationship, than save a few measly bucks and be a nobody to the people i'm giving my money to. What can the little guy do to compete? Well one way is to give customers incentive. Give a few free things away, be personable with clients. It may hit the pocket in the beginning but repeat business is a blessing. Here's an example: I won 2 auctions from "The Magic Obsession" about 6 months ago. I paid over the phone via credit card, and while I was giving my address the lady must have thought I said "Canada" instead of "Kansas". After not recieving my 4 swords to plowshares for a while I called back. The same lady was very nice and when she realised the mistake said the would immediately ship me another 4 cards. There was no hassle, no blaming and I felt good dealing with them. I promptly recieved my cards a few days later. Soon after that my hard drive crashed and I bought another PC ( It was about time for a new one anyway ) I had lost my info for The Magic Obsession, but I decided to try and find them because its not everyday you find a good business. I finally found their page..and CPA
Whats the point? I would never have spent the time I did searching for a business that hadn't left a good impression on me. And I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling this way.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

On that topic, Quill, I'd like to mention that, in my case, the local dealer is a total ass, and I've refused to set foot in his store for several months now, and have even encouraged a friend of mine who owns a small shop to help run the loser out of business.

The problem? Just as you've suggested, bad customer service. There used to be a couple of dealers in this little town, but one is a blatant gouger and the other almost never opens boxes for singles, so it's their own faults for losing their customer base. When PokeMon finally falls by the wayside, I pray these guys pack up and get out, or realize that they've driven off once-loyal customers by treating them like idiots. Honestly, I've had better experiences getting stuff online... and I reward the good sellers with repeat business, even when the price is a little higher (admittedly, partially to save on shipping).

 

[Wizard2000]

As far as my local shop goes all I can say is : What local shop?

The guy that runs our nearest card/comic store is a complete jackass and is wound up having to get a full time job and left his wife to work the shop. I don't see it lasting very long. He doesn't have places to play Magic and he sells everything for retail which is nuts.

As for eBay:

The biggest problem with eBay is that people will hold auctions for say.. Sliptide Serpent. It's not a great card, but it's not an entirely horrible card. It wound up being a rare. I see people put up 4 Serpents for $0.99. Of course there is little interest in the Serpent and it winds up selling for $1.24 or so... $1.24 for 4 Rares??? People on eBay don't realize that the cards like those will not receive many bids, thus they will sell for peanuts. This hurts those of us that are trying to break even or actually make profit off of our auctions. Right now eBay is flooded with people desperate to get rid of less-than-hot rares and that makes them practically worthless.

I guess this could be one of those price fixing type of debates... which I don't want to get into...

 

[Zadok001]

Duel: The P9 cards are: Lotus, Mox X5, Ancestral Recall, Timetwister, and Time Walk. If you extend it to the P10, as many people have, add Library of Alexandria. (Does anyone else find it extremely frustrating that the only colored cards in the P10 are Blue???? I hate that!)

Wizard2K: True enough. People sell rares really cheap on E-Bay. Last week, I got 4 Pariah for less than $5, inlcuding shipping. Today I traded them for cards I actually wanted. This is a profitable venture, thus, people take advantage of it. I have found E-Bay to be a great source of cards. That's why people use it, it can be worthwhile.

"It's kinda insulting that I took Nigel's advice to try it, though... Brrrr...." (Duel will get that joke, the rest of you should just ignore it.)

 

[Duel]

My own personal opinion: I like Lightning bolt and dark rituals. They are signifcantly better than alexandria (which I never understood anyways, draw a card if you have seven cards in your hand? you're better off with Archivist.)
BTW, on the topic, the card shop I go to has a nice trait: It sells the cards low, and has a huge amount of old uncommons/commons. That and friendly service and a dash of other cards (pokemon, baseball, star trek/wars) keep it in business

 

[Zadok001]

Hey, what shop DO you go to anyways? RDG's?

 

[Duel]

It's a tiny shop called "Awesome Cards and Comics" I'll have to take you to it some day. You'd like it there.

 

[Duel]

I may be back-tracking a little, but on the subject of reprinting, I think there's more to be said. I approve of reprinting cards. Maybe not the Power 9 (I always thought it was the power 6, what have I missed?) but some amazingly good cards. Incinerate will come out with an extra mana, and nobody, but nobody, will use it, I'm betting. I want the good old hayday of SRB. I loved my lightning bolts. Sure, make 'em rare, but print 'em. There's been a tendency to slack off and make rares that are too freakin' expensive to cast. Then they through in thoroughly broken cards (elvish piper, quicksilver amulet, SNEAK ATTACK) to bring them out. I honestly think that the downfall of the game came from the basic cards that they dropped from their sets. I think the R&D team has overworked the gimmicks like fading and echo and needs to print some plain old cards that I recognize. What the hell is topple, how about Lava axe or Elven Cache? they've taken the cards that worked, and replaced them with screwed-over copies. Not only that, but does anyone else here get the feeling that they ban cards by systematically going through the winning decks?

 

[TomB]

Interesting debate...

Wizard2000, I'm sorry to hear your shop isn't doing too good. As I've written before, I've had to mourn the passing of several card shops over the past couple of years. Being friendly, personable, and fair didn't help them stay in business. In fact, the one store I frequent that's still in business is probably the most impersonal store of the bunch.

I feel the way they've stayed in business is by diversifying. When Pogs were happening, they sold them. When Beanie Babies were big, it was Beanie central there. They built themselves a humidor at one point, and now they sell expensive cigars. They sell Home Run Inn pizzas they prepare in a toaster oven during Friday night Magic tourneys. Now they're running Pokemon tourneys all the time...

The point is, they've expanded their product base as a hedge against the roller-coaster nature of the CCG market, and it's helped them to stay in business over the years.

Maybe you should look into diversifying a bit.

I think you've a real clear vision of what this game should be. The basic set should be a set group of cards that doesn't change, and it should contain all the classic creatures and spells. Leave all the change in the game to the expansions.

Isn't that what they're for? Expanding on the basics?

I'll reiterate a point I've made before. I think it's in WotC's best interest to support local gaming stores better, both with price breaks, and with free stuff to give away. By supporting these retailers better they enable those retailers to promote their game at the grass-roots level. Joe Q. Scrub can someday make their precious Pro Tour, but ONLY if he can learn to play well in competition. That's what these stores provide people with, by giving them a place to play...to learn...to grow. Without them, and the new players they "train", the Pro Tour would die out from a lack of fresh blood.

I really hope they're not trying to drive those retailers out of business, figuring they can always come in later with their own stores to pick up the pieces. If that's what they're doing, well...

I doubt there will be much left to pick up when they do.

TomB
CPA Member

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Will Hasbro/WotC become the AT&T/MicroSoft of the gaming world?

Stay tuned, loyal viewers.

 

[arhar]

You know, I think the diversity thing is totally right. I must be really lucky, as the card shop in my area (10 blocks from my house) is awesome. The owner is a magic player himself, and he also sells Pokemon. Why? Because Pokemon is what brings him most profit. You would think that now Magic doesn't bring him any profit, and he just keeps selling it because he loves the game, but it's not true. I thought so for a while too. But look - a pack cost him about a dollar to buy. He sells them at 2.50, 7 for three packs. He also sells singles. He also has two or three tournaments each week, and a lot of drafting. And that brings him a profit. Being able to buy cards and play with them at the same place is very important.

 

[ChasDen]

Dealer pricing on mtg is NOT a buck a pack. Its almost twice that, even when you buy a truck load

Enjoy

 

[galtwish]

The only way for any sort of hobby store to be sucessful in the long run (4+ years) is to foster a play group for each of it's products. Having a smaller retail area with the promise of special ordering for customers is a great way to dedicate space to play area. A good way to do this is not to display RPG materials, as they take up a lot of floor space. If you can't get play area space, find a location and support it. It may be someone's house, or a community room/lobby in a dorm/apartment/community center. Sell sodas and snacks at these events for $.50-$1.00 (go to CostCo and buy flats) and ordef pizza, if possible from a small vendor who might make you a deal for guaranteed business. Some games to consider, other than just Magic:

Warhammer & other miniture wargames
RPG groups, specificly D&D
L5R
Board games like Axis & Allies, Settlers of Catan, etc

And hold as many drafts as possible. Have a couple of "House Decks" of Pokemon and Magic that people can borrow (for collateral) or rent. These two aspects make a "community" for the gamers to come to. When a newbie comes into a store because Pokemon is cool, and they buy 2 packs with their allowance, heap commons on them if possible. Talk about the cards with them. Tell them about the "clinic" you run once a week for Pokemon players to work on their decks and trade. Demo a game of Pokemon with your house decks for them. Make the customer feel welcome.

In short, show interest each person who walks in through the door, and cater to their individual needs. Don't worry about singles sales or boxes, worry about drafts. Sell premade decks to new players for $10-$50, depending on the cards. The rule of eBay vs. real stores is a reciprocal one: singles are better when you have 1000+ dealers competing, packs are better when you don't pay for shipping 2x. premade decks are better when you see them winning against your friends who told you about this cool game called Magic. Since everybody on this thread seems to be a gamer, let me end with this: We aren't involved with Magic to get rich, we work it because it pays intrinsicly.

Erik