What does "Casual" play mean to you?

[orgg]

The only deck competition I ever won was Alongi's Nomad Mythmaker contest.

I built the deck not to be the 'best deck,' but the 'most attention-catching.'

I ended up using many different synergies to create a horrible combo deck that used about a dozen cards in the process of making its combo 'go off,' including four Nomad Mythmakers, one lynchpin of the combo.

Did I make a competitive deck? No. I've not even been able to build it on Magic Online to see if I can 'go off' anywhere other than solo on apprentice. However, was I competitive when I made the casual deck?

Possibly. However, I don't see how a contest other than Magic really enters into anything.

 

[BigBlue]

Mooseman... how dare you bring the topic back into the discussion?

I think when you are talking about "casual"... the fun, and more lax rules are a given... because it isn't a tournament... this doesn't mean you shouldn't at least adhere closely to the rules it just means that allowing an unglued/unhinged card in a deck is probably ok... as would be allowing a takeback now and again (but like Spidey said only once or twice). We did this in our games (takebacks), however you would expect ridicule for doing it... Because some players wouldn't... (or at least claimed they didn't because they did it so rarely)...

I would propose that if you try to play a tournament with your friends for nothing but "glory" every week, you will likely lose your play group unless it is large enough... that's what always happened to us... someone's feelings get hurt and they either leave early or don't show up for a week or two...

If I had it to do over, I'd try to play more casual... and try to use less tuned decks... because I was certainly the cause of more than one arguement...

I think perhaps the question I asked was dumb... I think casual is more the method of play than the deck type... I do think "mean" decks aren't casual... decks which are made to slow things down, piss people off and therefore ruin the "casual" environment. In the same way, decks made to ruin 1 person's day aren't casual (say land destruction or a kill deck knowing you can't beat everyone, but you can at least spoil one person's day)...

Another question here which may help... what is NOT casual? (not just in decks)... sometimes looking at things from the other direction leads to better insight...

 

[Killer Joe]

Mooseman... how dare you bring the topic back into the discussion?

Yeah, he's like that!

I think when you are talking about "casual"... the fun, and more lax rules are a given... because it isn't a tournament... this doesn't mean you shouldn't at least adhere closely to the rules it just means that allowing an unglued/unhinged card in a deck is probably ok... as would be allowing a takeback now and again (but like Spidey said only once or twice). We did this in our games (takebacks), however you would expect ridicule for doing it... Because some players wouldn't... (or at least claimed they didn't because they did it so rarely)...

Lax rules is okay but for me I determine the player's ability first and then assess wheather or not they deserve the take back or sloppy play mistake. I cannot accept any take-backs, EVER! Nor would I expect my friends to allow me to do that and I wouldn't ask for one anyway.

I would propose that if you try to play a tournament with your friends for nothing but "glory" every week, you will likely lose your play group unless it is large enough... that's what always happened to us... someone's feelings get hurt and they either leave early or don't show up for a week or two...

That's all we ever play, well, at least I do.

If I had it to do over, I'd try to play more casual... and try to use less tuned decks... because I was certainly the cause of more than one arguement...

Me too, but I'm sure I'd play a deck where I'm sure to lose. My opponents are wise and know that I'd be trying to throw a game.

I think perhaps the question I asked was dumb... I think casual is more the method of play than the deck type... I do think "mean" decks aren't casual... decks which are made to slow things down, piss people off and therefore ruin the "casual" environment. In the same way, decks made to ruin 1 person's day aren't casual (say land destruction or a kill deck knowing you can't beat everyone, but you can at least spoil one person's day)...

eh-eh-eh! "To me..."

Another question here which may help... what is NOT casual? (not just in decks)... sometimes looking at things from the other direction leads to better insight...

I'm sure we could come to more of an agreement with that subject.

 

[depolarization]

Not casual?

Being a jerk about things...making well meaning newbs pissed by pointing out all of their mistakes and their horrible deck construction in mean ways.

P1 - ptour wannabee jerk: "Never play spells before combat newb *#@!"
P2 - (after P1 plays an instant discard spell after his draw): "what? I thought you said...
P1 - (interrupting rudely): "never take advice from your opponent! Ha ha, I win"
P2 - newb: "That wasn' very fun..."
P1 - "go home and cry about it!"

Fist fight ensues after someone gets called a homosexual and the store owner is pissed off at the behavior.

Your not helping by being a condescending southside of a northbound horse.

Casual?

P1 - nice guy FNM: "Um, that was a rather ineffective play, here's why..."
P2 - highschooler fantasy fan: "Hey thanks, yeah the art looked cool, I guess I should focus the deck more and not rely on luck to draw those two islands to play it"
P1 - nice guy FNM: "Unless you're <that guy I know>, probably not a good idea...hey I have puppies in my car, wanna see?..."

<ok, that may have been uncalled for >

I suppose a lot of it is attitude as mentioned before. And you know? Some people may like playing with the competetive Ptour wannabee. For those that don't want to play with people like him, I would just avoid him...unless he really is very good and will improve your skills by eventually tanning his hide every FNM until he quits to find another metagame where he can make highschoolers cry and quit the game making their parents happy they won't waste money on the hobby anymore...

"hey mom, I'll take up smoking instead. Yeah, it's a little more expensive and I'll steal money out of your purse at night, but in the long run but I'll be more accepted".

A good casual group takes a while to cultivate, where everyone's philosophies on "what is casual" are simpatico (love that word) and all have a good time.

I would suggest being inclusive, give people chances and avoid passive aggressive behavior, which is a killer of friendships before they even start. If something irks you, point it out. Sometimes people don't realize they're irking you with their habits. If you're not simpatico, leave. The joy of the hobby is that in most urban centers you'll find other folks to play with <gasp> socialize and share your interests! Maybe even find your wife or life partner?! (um...probably not) Try a local university or community college if a game store isn't your thing.

My causal philosophy: I can always improve and I seem to quit the game every other year, so my skills are rusty. Help me keep the rules straight and I'll try and keep the fun flowing with some food and try to be good company. Yeah, it's relaly important to enjoy the company you're with...how much time are you spending with this? Afterall, you'll die eventually, so don't be miserable during the time you choose to spend playing a somewhat expensive hobby.

 

[orgg]

IF the first example was in a tournament, where a strictly casual player shouldn't be, while mean spirited, would be almost acceptable if phrased differently.

Outside of those paid-to-win bounds, however, it's just being a jerk. While the information should be shared with the lesser-skilled players you play, one should not be mean or condescending, or give advice only to take advantage of another player.

 

[Spiderman]

turgy22 had a good example in his Prerelease report on the front page. His opponent let him take back a move that resulted in his loss (eventually). But turgy22 is offering to make amends by offering a couple of booster packs... nice all around.

 

[Killer Joe]

Not casual?

Being a jerk about things...making well meaning newbs pissed by pointing out all of their mistakes and their horrible deck construction in mean ways.

Wait, I want to defend a a difference between being a Jerk and being Obnoxious.

A jerk is that longtime PTQ player who calls a judge over when he suspects a newbie, or otherwise, that their decklist MAY be misrepresented on their deck registration sheet and gets his opponent a game loss because his hunch was right. THAT's a Jerk!

A PTQ-wanna-be is the fool who screams and crys at newbies, or otherwise, who occasionally forget to untap before drawing or doesn't tap their lands at a perfect 90 degree angle. THAT's an Obnoxious PTQ-Wanna-Be!

Of course, I fancy myself as a Casual Magic Jerk!

 

[depolarization]

Of course, I fancy myself as a Casual Magic Jerk!

Aye, most of the PTQ old guard worth their salt in a match are going to play like a pro...and I can learn from them, and I think most any player can whether a Timmy, Spike or whatever they're using now to categorize us into easy-to-swallow morsels. I find that winning against them usually is a matter of luck on my part and some smart plays...like not decking myself to draw more cards when I have the opponent in lockdown and he's drawn more than I have...grrr...darn mahamoti control decks.

Playing in a tournament and calling a deck check is a good move KJ. I hope those newbs you've done that to learn something from it. One can hope you were nice about it, and played some rounds with them anyway for fun until the match-time is called so they can learn more (what I would do), and they can further learn from that. Though they got called on a technicality, I don't think you have alienated them from the game...unless of course your opponent cannot take losing well and if that's the case, they should probably quit the game all together and save people the agony of getting matched against them.

Tournament-time is not a time to putz around, especially if you care about improving your rating and gaining some sweet product to share with your playgroup's cardpool.

I've realized over my years in the tourneys, most PT-quality players people really put in a lot of time and effort into the hobby, to where it does become like a job for them. They are pros and know all the ins and outs of magic because of many hours dedicated to mastering the game.

So if semantically you're a jerk KJ, then I would have to concede that being a jerk is tolerable, albeit doesn't feel casual, kinda professional actually to play that way. But being obnoxious is inexcusable.

Can't wait for the box of Ravnica to arrive...so glad all of the card-art is up on mtgnews/findmagic sites.

 

[Killer Joe]

I'M not the PTQ player I mentioned but know guys like that. In Pittsburgh there are a lot of them, all talented players and darn nice guys when you talk to them but when you're trying to 'win' points, products or Scooby-Snacks you're likely to do some things that are a bit "Jerky" but not cheating or berating.

I can recall a recent time when I was asked by a PT player to come to his table and watch his game (btw, I judge) that was comming to time (2 min. left to go). No one else needed me so I agreed as long as I didn't have to make another call. I soon gathered that I was supposed to be watching his opponent who was trying to "Slow-Play" his way to a DRAW. His opponent grew nervous and made a bad play and the PT player won the game and the match.

Now THAT was "jerky" on the PT players part even though he was correct in calling it and was well within his right to call me over but my presence made his unexperienced opponent loose his cool. Cheating? or Good Play?

As for me, I like to taunt my friends at our games. Mooseman can attest to that though I rarely taunt HIM! It's been a longtime since I played in a PTQ and the last time I did I called the judge over to bust on myself! I forgot to unsideboard and I realized this during the opening game of my next round when appearing in my hand were two Duress and I was about to HOUSE my opponent. I was playing Cunning-Tog I got a "Game Loss" and a warning although the judge was reluctant to penalize me at all since I DID call it to his attention and my opponent had no idea what I was callinmg him for but I insisted I get something (btw Mooseman, it was John).

I could've been a "jerk" but my conscience got the best of me! Why, oh Why do I have a soul!?

Ravnica! BTW, did I mention that I got 3x Overgrown Tomb and 2 Watery Graves?

 

[Mooseman]

A jerk is that longtime PTQ player who calls a judge over when he suspects a newbie, or otherwise, that their decklist MAY be misrepresented on their deck registration sheet and gets his opponent a game loss because his hunch was right. THAT's a Jerk!

Deck Checks are not something that players can demand, if they have a good reason for this hunch, maybe, it will be done. But the reason better be real good.
Player "Judge, I don't think my opponent regged 4 Duresses on his reg sheet."
Judge "Why would you think that?"
Player " ummm.... he's not a good enough player..."
Judge "You have 15 minutes left in this round."

 

[Gizmo]

WTF! Are you kidding me?

He felt his opponent was trying to cheat and he asked you over to keep an eye on him and that was jerky? Surely the guy trying to stall out was the jerk? A player should feel able to ask the judge to come over when he feels he is being cheated.

If the other player cant handle the pressure then its a valid learning experience, it's one he'll be glad of when he gets to a PTQ quarter final and there's a judge sat watching every move of every game. I've blown serious cash on making poor decisions under pressure, it's a part of the game. At GP Manchester I was one play from the Top-8 but I got stressed, overthought it, missed the obvious factor on the decision, and finished 18th instead.

I can recall a recent time when I was asked by a PT player to come to his table and watch his game (btw, I judge) that was comming to time (2 min. left to go). No one else needed me so I agreed as long as I didn't have to make another call. I soon gathered that I was supposed to be watching his opponent who was trying to "Slow-Play" his way to a DRAW. His opponent grew nervous and made a bad play and the PT player won the game and the match.

Now THAT was "jerky" on the PT players part even though he was correct in calling it and was well within his right to call me over but my presence made his unexperienced opponent loose his cool. Cheating? or Good Play?

 

[BigBlue]

Stalling for a draw is not legal... so, it's completely cool to call a judge over. If the staller suddenly makes a bad play, that isn't the fault of the judge or the other player...

A lot of players are nervous and make mistakes... especially n00bs... but Judges aren't at fault for adding to the nervousness... it's a tourney...

I am certain many players would be better if they learned to deal with nerves, but they don't (or haven't yet)...

 

[Nightstalkers]

lol, the exact reason why I won't ever be into a high end tournament like the PT is that I'm too nice. Sure you can be a total arse and I'll find you after the convention, but usually I'm sweet and allow players to take back a move that was really due to nervousness and unknowing.

It's a part of the game... one reason why I enjoy simply messing around and building a deck or two based on the psychotic synergy of a few cards just for a chance to teach someone to keep an open mind and check out how badly the cards bend the rules.

 

[Killer Joe]

"Jerky"? Yes.

Well within his rights to do so? Absolutely!

Don't be under the guise that "Jerky" automatically equates to *bad person or player*. Obnoxious, however, DOES equate to *bad person or player*

That PT player I spoke is someone I've known and played in tournaments with for 5 years and he has demonstrated his 'professionalism' time and again. But c'mon, he could've outright said to his opponent that he suspects he is "Slow Playing" and I'm sure that would've sped things up. But, by being *jerky* he called me over and I became the henchman against his opponent.

PT player's integrity: Intact

PT player's *Jerky* meter: +8

Now take another sip of your morning pint, Mate.

 

[orgg]

How's Obnoxious 'bad person or player?'

I played the Monty Python and the Holy Grail card game during a round of the current tournament. About five song cards were played that game. I had to sing the Nights of the Round Table song verses one and two. Many found it obnoxious. However, it was part of the game, and I was playing it correctly.


...ok, maybe doing the DANCE was a bit jerky... but it was fun.

 

[Nightstalkers]

I haven't heard of a monty python card game... Maybe I'll have to do it.


I'm actually starting up my casual gaming challenge... If you don't know what that is, I basically play four different card games at once against four seperate players.

 

[orgg]

Check Ebay for a store that has boxes of it and the expansion for a reasonable fourty bucsk.

 

[Killer Joe]

How's Obnoxious 'bad person or player?'

I used that in context to seperate the difference between Jerky and obnoxious. For example: How's "Jerky" = Bad person or player? It doesn't. But "To me..." Obnoxious does equate bad person or player.

Monty Python CCG? I think I've heard of that before.

 

[Gizmo]

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/fullimage/30164

 

[Killer Joe]

Thanks, I've been there before!