Unrestrict everything...

Discussion in 'CPA/WOTC Magic Issues' started by Oversoul, Nov 18, 2004.

  1. Oversoul The Tentacled One


    Okay, so the author says he's not stating that all of those cards should necessarily be unrestricted.

    Apparently the one that is supposed to surprise people is Mind Twist. I am inclined to agree with him on Mind Twist. I mean, Magic is certainly not the same as it was back when Mind Twist was moved from the banned list back to the restricted list. It is definitely a powerful card, but what decks would really use it? Still, I also think the phrase "better safe than sorry" applies to these situations...

    But Mind Twist was not the card that made my eyes bug out. Let's unrestrict Dream Halls. Oh and Time Spiral while we're at it. Whatever one of those cards would do unrestricted is bad enough. What about what they would do together?

    Copies of Dream Halls in Oversoul's collection: 4
    Copies of Time Spiral in Oversoul's collection: 3

    I say let's do it. What is the worst that could possibly happen? I know I wouldn't dream of using them in the same deck... :D
  2. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I don't play Vintage enough competitively to offer a solid opinion, but I think it's easy enough to see if unrestricting them would cause problems or not by proxying them up in decks in Apprentice or something. He says his article is meant to stimulate discussion, so maybe the great minds over there will come up with something (or not...)
  3. mythosx Legendary Creature-Human

    if you want a fast way of seeing how degenerate it is..you can just go check out the old shandalar program....so many many different decks can kill you during your first untap step. I never had a game go past the third turn.
  4. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Yeah, but Apprentice has all of the newer cards to enable you to make even more degenerate decks :) Plus, Shandalar doesn't have some of the cards in question like Dream Halls and Voltaic Key.
  5. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Stroke of Genius: This one seems pretty safe to me. It is more dangerous than Braingeyser was because of instant speed, but other than that it looks like a great candidate for unrestriction.

    Mind over Matter: This card has a lot of inherent power, but the massive mana cost seems to keep it in check. Its synergies with things like Tolarian Academy and Library of Alexandria are something to look out for. With a reasonably powerful card advantage engine of some sort, this card is a game-winner. Still, I would not be at all surprised to see it leave the list. It costs a lot and the cards that make it broken are already restricted.

    Voltaic Key: There is no reason to leave this on the list. It is not dangerous enough to be restricted.

    Dream Halls: This is where Menendian loses me. Just because a card is difficult to use does not make it safe. Dream Halls may cost five, but allow me to point something out: IT ALLOWS YOU TO PLAY SPELLS WITHOUT MANA! The restriction of this card has caused it to die off as it is not useful as a one-of and is banned everywhere else. The only enchantment in the whole game that is more broken is Yawgmoth's Bargain. Thankfully no one is even suggesting unrestricting that. Dream Halls is the wildest suggestion on his list.

    Time Spiral: Just because Time Spiral wasn't good in Draw7 does not mean is should be unrestricted. One of my favorite decks in Vintage, TPS would benefit very much from having multiple Spirals. Time Spiral unrestricted would be especially apocalyptic with Dream Halls unrestricted.

    Mind Twist: What he says here definitely has merit, but I think that if this one is a candidate for unrestriction, it needs to be tested thoroughly. We can pretty much ignore arguments about Misdirection balancing out Mind Twist. Not enough decks use Misdirection for that to matter. If decks everywhere start packing Misdirection in order to combat Mind Twist, it becomes a metagame distorter.
  6. mythosx Legendary Creature-Human

    Mind over matter - I have mixed feelings about this card. On one hand I do see the argument about how much it costs. But at the same time the card has the same level of power as say oh a time stretch. It will pretty much with the game for you assuming you didnt just get reamed by a disk or another reset button.

    Voltic Key - I see it being very degenerate. By itself it is pretty tame. Put into any deck with a decent number of artifacts, then its just ridiculous. Even without metal workers, my friend was able to drop large colosuses of all sort by turn 2 or 3 and then just by pass the huge costs to untap them by using the key. A little key goes a long way, if even just for the mana.
  7. NorrYtt Casual Green Mage

    Dream Halls is broken. It's not as broken as Mind's Desire in Type 1 (paying no mana + drawing cards > paying no mana + discarding cards) but how broken must broken be?

    Dream Halls would play in a monoblue deck that would likely draw its deck then combo with Palinchron or a simple Brain Freeze + Deep Analysis.

    I think Steve has some thing where the fastest broken decks beat all the other fast broken decks, so lets unrestrict cards to increase brokeness.
  8. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Blue is broken - period.

    Note most of the cards listed are blue - or help maintain blue's brokenness...
  9. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I don't think the blueness of the cards is really the issue this time though, Train...
  10. DarthFerret Evil Sith Weasel

    I said this in a previous post today, but it fits here too!

    Sol Ring should be an unristricted card now. Since Magic has evolved so much in 10 years, it should be tested along with voltaic key, and mind twist.
  11. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    And my reply from the other thread is the same: since it produces more mana than it costs without any drawback, it's highly doubtful it'll get removed from the list :)
  12. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Unrestricted Sol Ring would provide inordinate acceleration to combo, especially Belcher, but other decks as well.

    Mind Twist is less potentially harmful, especially when taken from the perspective that decks aren't using the one copy they could (right now). But here I think (and I could be wrong, I would like to see it tested) that Mind Twist is in the same boat as Black Vise. It is basically outdated as a one-of, but as a four-of, it would lead to a new generation of decks that used it, and alter the metagame to an unpredictable degree.

    For example, Black Vise unrestricted would not lead to a single dominant deck, but it would totally hose the current control decks. Would it lead to a new confederation of Vise-resistant control? Would it make control decks using Vise more powerful? Would it allow combo to dominate? Would it provide prison with another awesome bomb? Something else entirely?

    Mind Twist may or may not be as bad, but it is similar. First turn Twists would become commonplace. Would decks doing so dominate? Or would Misdirection start seeing heavy maindeck use? Would Madness capitalize on its higher tolerance to the effects of Twist? Or perhaps Twist would see no increase in use. I would like to know the answer, but not so badly that I would unrestrict Mind Twist to find out...
  13. DarthFerret Evil Sith Weasel

    I just had a thought, and looked it up. Some of these other cards I can see banned/restricted. One that I wonder why it is not at least restricted is "Word of Command". Now, I have not seen anyone use 4 in a deck, but then again, I have not seen the card itself in several years (wish I had 4 of em). Can anyone tell me why this card is not considered to be a high powered card? (Could be a game breaker in my opinion)
  14. Reverend Love New Member

    Dreamhalls will stay restricted I hope. R&D has learned their lesson with Affinity I think.

    Key should be unrestricted. The sun has set on its days of glory.

    I'm really sitting on the fence with Mind. It's too easy to draw cards through an infinite engine like Mind.

    What do you guys think about unrestricting Crop Rotation? I mean really most of the restrictions are simply for Academy. And I'm sure no one is going to argue that Academy needs unrestricting. Cradle is not any type of serious threat in Vintage (I think :p ). So I'm really scratching my head on this one. Anyone know something I don't?

    Time Spiral: High Tide would get drunk and mount Draw 7 to spawn some cheesy little Storm deck combining the two. Keep it restricted.
  15. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Actually, I'm also curious about Word of Command... what's it's story? What was the deck(s) that led it to being on the list?
  16. DarthFerret Evil Sith Weasel

    That was my point, it is NOT on the list, and I think it should be. Word of Command can decimate a direct damage deck, a control deck, or many combo decks. Especially if you play with 4 of them. I wanted to know if anyone knows why it is not on the list?
  17. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Oooooh, I thought it was on the list and you were saying it should be taken off... never mind me, then :)
  18. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    RL: I'm in total agreement with you on Key and Dream Halls. I also have the misgivings on unrestricting MoM, though I think it should be tested and kept under consideration. You are right on about Time Spiral, although I think that along with stuff like High Tide, TPS becomes even more of a threat to other decks, and it's already very good. Crop Rotation still fetches Academy and does a good job of it, so I'm not sure what you mean there. Even without Academy, there are two other restricted lands it can throw into play. It has been said that Entomb needs to stay on the list because it can throw Strip Mine into the graveyard and then one is only a Crucible away from the ultimate LD engine in Magic. Crop Rotation would do an even better job of this than Entomb unrestricted, and is probably even more dangerous...

    DarthFerret: Word of Command doesn't see any use in modern decks, so there wouldn't be a reason to restrict it. I guess it is too situational as it winds up doing nothing against some decks...
  19. Reverend Love New Member

    Good point concerning Crop Rotation.
  20. DarthFerret Evil Sith Weasel

    I guess I can see your point there oversoul, plus the fact that I have not met anyone in Texas yet that has a "Word of Command". If I had one, I would put it in everydeck (oh but to dream :) ). Maybe because it was never printed beyond Unlimited, (like the moxes and the lotus, time walk, etc...)

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