Discussion in 'Classic Questions' started by dw51688, Aug 31, 2000.

  1. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I guess Mikeymike has a valid point there. Visions didn't have any particularly scary cards (Vampiric Tutor aside). But as far as overall power goes, the whole block was mediocre, and Visions was on par with it. Stronghold had some very good cards, but was mostly unimpressive (in comparison to the rest of the Rath cycle).

    Uber-bombs in Planeshift, though? Planeshift's best cards were things like Orim's Chant and Flametongue Kavu. I think "uber bomb" might be too strong a term...
  2. TheCasualOblivion 10 year Veteran Newbie

    Depends if you judge a set on bombs or useful cards.

    Visions lacked the bombs, but had:
    Man O War
    River Boa
    Stampeding Wildebeasts
    Crypt Rats
    Fallen Askari
    Undiscovered Paradise
    Vampiric Tutor
    Goblin Recruiter
    Longbow Archer
    Pygmy Hippo
    Quirion Ranger
    Rainbow Efreet
    Snake Basket
    Suq Ata Lancer
    Uktabi Orangutan
    Viashino Sandstalker
    Cloud Elemental

    Again, no real bombs aside from Vamp Tutor, but look at all the non-crap

    I always liked Visions. I've always been a bigger fan of stuff I can use than game breaking bombs.
  3. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    I'm thinking more in terms of rare slots.
    Because that's what most Magic goobers care about.
  4. TheCasualOblivion 10 year Veteran Newbie

    Its all a matter of opinion. Money and big power cards, or the amount of staple cards added to the game.

    Any set decided to be the "worst" should be lacking in both. Visions really lacks the big cards, but added more staples than almost any other set of its size.
  5. Ferret CPA Founder, Slacker

    Hmmm...old question. Good question. I would have to say Ice Age. It had a lot of great cards, but on its own it was terrible. All those cards dealing w/ Snow Covered Lands just didn't appeal to me. At the time the cards were very hard to find (and very expensive when I did) and I was always disappointed when I opened them up and found so much crap in them (after getting my sixt Icy Manipulator I was really starting to get annoyed).

    Some of the other sets from that era (Homelands and Fallen Empires) weren't that great, but at least their good cards to bad cards ratio wasn't as skewed as it was for Ice Age.


    "Seriously: They printed a card that had FORESTHOME!"
  6. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    Orim's Chant, Meddling Mage, possibly Quirion Dryad. Hey I did say a few. :p
  7. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Okay, so it has Orim's Chant, Meddling Mage, Quirion Dryad (and you put them in that order, whether you meant to or not, I would also put them in probably that very order as the top three cards of the set without hesitation), Flametongue Kavu, Shivan Wurm, Urza's Guilt, Phyrexian Scuta and Terminate. After them it starts getting only moderately good, then quickly changes to mediocrity. When compared to Apocalypse or Invasion, this makes it look pretty weak. I wouldn't say this approaches the level of crapiness associated with Legions, but it does help contribute to the idea that the second set in a block isn't as good as the others.

    I wouldn't say that this is the case with Urza's Legacy, which keeps up with the broken pace of Saga and Destiny or Darksteel, which has mostly better cards that Fifth Dawn or Mirrodin.

    Now, if we count Ice Age, which wasn't really designed to be a block, then Homelands defines this, um, phenomenon (for lack of a better word) as much as Legions does, and possibly moreso...
  8. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Nah, don't count Homelands with Ice Age. I don't know why even Wizards does this, but Homelands was the last true "stand-alone".
  9. Ferret CPA Founder, Slacker

    I thought Weatherlight was. I know that Vision was an expansion to Mirage, but I thought that Weatherlight was only a loose expansion of it...


    "...and the beginning of Magic having a 'storyline'"
  10. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Well, Homelands is used in Ice Age block constructed, and most players don't know that it was a stand-alone, which is probably why it gets counted as part of the "block" so much.

    I think Weatherlight was intended to be considered part of the Mirage "block" (back then they called them cycles, at least that's what I always heard it called when I was new to the game) despite the fact that it is more loosely attached to the scenario presented in Mirage...
  11. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I know, but I don't even know why Homelands is used in Ice Age block constructed. What, they needed a third expansions since everything is done in threes now and Homelands was printed at the time? Ookaaay...

    I think though Weatherlight was used the jumping point for the whole Gerrard/Legacy storyline, it still had mechanics from Mirage and Visions so is counted as part of the block moreso than Homelands and Ice Age. If it doesn't share any mechanics, then I agree with ya that it should be the last standalone. :)
  12. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    It also seems rather pointless to include, since Homelands looks weak even when compared to Ice Age. What cards from Homelands would I use in a block constructed deck? Memory Lapse? Serrated Arrows?
  13. jorael Craptacular!

    Autumn willow, dry spell, eron the relentless, ishan's shade, merchant scroll, sengir autocrat, spectral bears, wall of kelp? Not the best of the best that magic has to offer, but all nice spells.

    Or you could choose to go for faerie beatdown :)
  14. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    If by "nice" you mean "totally mediocre" then yes. I think I have all of those cards and use none of them...

    Even in Ice Age block, they aren't particularly great. Serrated Arrows might be useful as creature removal in the right situation, but it's still not all that good...

    Merchant Scroll is a nice way to find Ancestral Recall or something, but is distinctly unamazing, as tutors go.

    Autumn Willow is a green fatty and not all that high on the list of green fatties--still slightly useful though...

    I love Sengir Autocrat and he works perfectly with cards like Delraich or Hecatomb. He's still only mildly good in reality, and not actually tournament worthy.

    Memory Lapse can be a fun counter. I suppose that in Ice Age block, it is nice to have so that you don't need to use Arcane Denial...

    Spectral Bears is not usually worth the drawback, but when it is, it's a good card.

    I know some fans of Eron, but he's a crappy Ball Lightning.

    Dry Spell? Who uses that? Wall of Kelp? Yeah, not the best that Magic has to offer is right. Nice spells though? I don't think so.

    Ishan's Shade just looks cool. It's good as far as Homelands goes, but would be chaff for almost any other set.
  15. TheCasualOblivion 10 year Veteran Newbie

    Ishan's Shade was fun when it was new. It was 5/5 cannot be killed by spells for 6 mana, being immune to most of the removal in the game via being black(no Terror/Dark Banishing) having protection from white(no plowshares), and being 5/5(no Lightning Bolt/Incinerate, at least not alone). The mana curve was different back then and 6 mana wasn't as unplayable as it is now.
  16. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Well, the mana curve for Ice Age block isn't particularly higher or lower than it was when the format was new (as far as I know).
  17. TheCasualOblivion 10 year Veteran Newbie

    I was comparing it to the mana curve we have now.
  18. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Autumn Willow was da bomb back then when untargetable creatures were a novelty. Then Jolrael's Centaur came out and she got dropped for him :)
  19. Shiro Time Devourer I have returned!

    She's still the best card in that set, hands down. Memory Lapse is merely a close second. Even then she'd be outclassed by the likes of Troll Ascetic.
  20. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Well, she's pretty good as Homelands goes, but I'd call Merchant Scroll the best card in the set (and it's still not all that great).

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