T1 worthy?

Discussion in 'Casual Decks/Variants/Etc' started by Nightstalkers, Aug 9, 2004.

  1. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    The Deck:

    Land:
    15x Swamp
    4x Mishra's Factory
    1x Cabal Coffers

    Spells:
    2x Sinister Strength
    1x Parallax Dimentia
    3x Unholy Strength
    3x Drain Life
    1x Consume Spirit
    4x Dark Ritual
    1x Oubliette
    1x Diabolic Intent
    1x Infernal Harvest
    3x Terror
    3x Diabolic Edict

    Creatures:
    4x Dauthi Slayer
    3x Dauthi Marauder
    4x Dauthi Horror
    3x Erg Raiders
    1x Fog of Gnats
    1x Sengir Vampire
    1x Slith Bloodletter

    Sideboard:
    1x Mana Web
    4x Crippling Fatigue
    2x Deathgrip
    1x Dauthi Mercenary
    2x Chainers Edict
    1x Diabolic Edict
    1x Terror
    1x Grave Servitude
    1x Sengir Vampire
    1x Distorting Lens

    Basically its a turn 8 killer (my turn 4) whenever I get it to work... Its been modified from its older version, but basically I'm trying to get it to give a cleaner kill.
  2. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Any weaknesses you've noticed while playing other decks? What are the types of decks you've played against?
  3. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I think it type 1 worthy, and even a little strong, but a few tweaks might have it working wonders for you...

    In the new T1 meta - here are some items that can help you fare well against most decks...

    Damping Matrix - over Null rod because it lets them have their mana, but shuts down all the new creature abilities out there... especially tinker, lavamancer, shaman, welder, triskelion, karn, psychatog, charbelcher, and the U'G madness decks... You can still activate your factories - and can even pump them... but can't activate one to a creature, and then pump itself or another.

    I really think a lake of the dead will do you one better than the coffers - especially if you're trying to win it early, and not mid-late... It's possible to top out 8 mana easily on third turn with it and a ritual...

    You can consolidate some cards that do the same thing, and be better off - Parallax dementia has fading, and you can replace it with another sinister strength, that won't fade away... and it won't destroy your creature...

    Consume Spirit is inherently better than drain life because you can consume more than your target's life total, or toughness...

    Oubliette is cool - but lets the creature come back, as it was... Ashes to Ashes could work in it's place... Cannibalize is less desirable - but still removes one permanently... Contagion might even work better here for the smaller decks out there... Eradicate is another option to consider...

    Suppress would work wonders in the type 1 scene - but no one is running them...

    If you can run the tutor instead of intent - it works better for you...

    Edict is nice - but you want to remove the biggest threat to you - so targeting is important...

    Here's what I'd run with the changes - right at 60 cards... If you are interested in running something like this, and need some cards - I have plenty to give away, and just need to know what you need...

    The Deck:

    Land:
    15x Swamp
    3x Mishra's Factory
    2x Lake of the Dead

    Spells:
    3x Sinister Strength
    3x Unholy Strength
    3x Consume Spirit
    4x Dark Ritual
    4x Suppress
    1x Demonic Tutor
    4x Dark Banishing

    Creatures:
    4x Dauthi Slayer
    3x Dauthi Marauder
    4x Dauthi Horror
    3x black knight
    2x Nekrataal

    Artifacts:
    2 Damping Matrix

    Sideboard:
    4x Hymn to Tourach
    2x Damping Matrix
    3x Simulacrum
    1x Nekrataal
    2x Terror
    3x Engineered Plague
  4. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    The big question, are you playing competitive Type 1 with this deck or casual Type 1? I'm going to base my recommendations off of CompT1.

    Damping Matrix vs. Null Rod. Its almost a 6 of one, half a dozen of the other kind of argument, but in the end I think Null Rod wins out. I would lean towards Null Rod b/c mono-black has a far easier time dealing with creatures than it does artifacts. Also, the 2 CC is helpful in denying your opponent's their Moxen mana.

    Lake of the Dead is definitely better than the Coffers in here, but with all the Wastelands running amok (esp with Crucible) I wouldn't run ANY big mana producing non-basics. Mishra's Factories are different b/c they are more of a creature than a land.

    Creature selection: You need some 1-drops, and might want to consider optmizing your choices. Fog of Gnats, Sengir Vampire, and Slithbloodletter can all be improved upon (possibly Erg Raiders too) - specificially with cheaper evasion creatures. Fledgling Djinn, Will o' Wisps. Hypnotic Specters and Negators never hurt either.

    Creature Boosters: Unholy strength is the best, followed by Sinister Strength. Run 4x of each...Parallax Dementia I'm not sure about. It does 6 extra damage (theoretically), but then it takes a creature down with it. It might be fast enough to keep around, but 4x Sinister Strength should suffice fine.

    Creature Removal:
    Don't go heavy of creature removal, just make sure its good. Consume Spirits/Drain Life are too expensive for your deck to really optimize, and Infernal Harvest can simply be better. The creature you want to kill quickly: Goblin Welder, Grim Lavamancer, Psychatog, and then big fat ugly artifact creatures. The best ways to deal with either/or are Diabolic Edict, Oubliette (which is extremely effective b/c enchantment removal is very low), and Devour in Shadow. Terror is solid, but its inability to deal with artifacts will be a problem. If you want to run the risk of NOT being able to deal with artifacts, run Funeral Charm instead. It kills many problem creatures before they become active, something terror can't always do.

    Add Demonic Tutor and Yawgmoth's Will. They can both be very effective in here. Hymn to Tourach always good, as is the restricted Necropotence.

    I don't have much of a problem with Diabolic Intent, though I do see it being a pain sometimes. That said, if you do own a Demonic Tutor, run that instead.

    Good Hate cards include: Withered Wretch, Cremate, Ebony Charm, Sinkhole, Hatred.

    Again, these comments were really aimed at competitive Type 1. Hope they helped.
  5. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    The main decks I find troubles with are the large weenie decks, some counter, and anything that basically finds a way to foil the first few creatures that I basically throw out there on the first or second turns. After that, I'll pump them up and attack. Usually I come at my opponents with 5/2 or even a 6/3 sometimes. By the time I've gotten enough dmg in to really make my opponents squirm they find a way to negate my creatures and I end up dropping a large drain life or consume spirit to vaporize them for good.

    Only reason why I run the Fog of Gnats and the Slith Bloodletter is because I need some kind of defense sometimes. They're regenerators so they work to block large creatures without trample, thusly saving me from some decks which use large creature speed. The Vampires I'm really thinking of getting rid of and just trading out for something... the Diabolic Intent is the only tutor type card I can really get my hands on without giving an arm and a leg.


    I'll canabalize my nightstalker deck for the single lake of the dead I've got... if I can find the deck around here... I think its hidden itself on me.
  6. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    Problem with playing Yawgmoth's Will is the fact that this deck doesn't really build up a graveyard when it kills. Basically its for a quick kill or an underhanded drain to finish off the life. Hmm... I should make it 2 Drain Life and 2 Consume Spirit... Just got done looking through my black box and only found 3 more Drain Lifes. I'll have to check into the card place I found and root through their junk box.

    Hmm... I've got a Nightmare Lash, No Mercy, and Soul Kiss I can cannibalize from my nightstalker deck if I wanted to... Nightmare lash wouldn't help me much really... It'd come out on turn 3-4 and be used on turn 4-5 with an increase in dmg of being around 3-4. But still its a probability factor....

    Soul kiss can be used most definitely... +6/+6 if I pay 3 life and 3 black mana after I've put it on a creature... I can throw in another Parallax Dementia... probably not good though, I should get some more Sinister Strengths instead.

    True I have to allow my opponents creatures to hit me for No Mercy to work... Has to be some way to get around it somehow...

    Like I stated before, I'm ditching the Vampires... Might be good to add them to my trading list anyways

    I'm also ditching the Distorting Lense. I only had it in there for if I needed some way to get around a protection deck... but protection decks are white and they'd use Pacify and other things like that to foil my creatures... Hmm... I'm going to have to find a way to get around that as well.

    Mana Web is my only way to really get around Counter decks right now. Basically tie up my opponents mana in one counterspell... but still, there are ways to get around that.

    Grave Servitude is definitely getting left on the side of the road here, too many of my creatures have 1 toughness... well... I don't know, I've got enough other things to back that up and keep the +3 to attack... Hmm.... Now I'm back at a standstill with it.

    Infernal Harvest hasn't helped me too much... I'll keep it in till I need to dump something in there.

    Would a Phyrexian Arena work for a draw engine? I dunno... it worked okay in my nightstalker deck even though it was a pain to keep... Well, since I try to keep my games on the low turn end, I could try it... Bye Bye Infernal Harvest.

    As for the Matrix and all that... I'd have to trade around for those.

    The Deck:
    Land:
    15x Swamp
    4x Mishra's Factory
    1x Lake of the Dead

    Spells:
    2x Sinister Strength
    1x Parallax Dimentia
    3x Unholy Strength
    3x Drain Life
    1x Consume Spirit
    4x Dark Ritual
    1x Oubliette
    1x Diabolic Intent
    3x Terror
    3x Diabolic Edict
    1x Phyrexian Arena

    Creatures:
    4x Dauthi Slayer
    3x Dauthi Marauder
    4x Dauthi Horror
    3x Erg Raiders
    1x Fog of Gnats
    2x Black Knight
    1x Slith Bloodletter

    Sideboard:
    1x Mana Web
    4x Crippling Fatigue
    2x Deathgrip
    1x Dauthi Mercenary
    2x Chainers Edict
    1x Diabolic Edict
    1x Terror
    1x Grave Servitude
  7. Ephraim New Member

    It's never pleasant to be the bearer of bad news. However, I have to to break it to you that this deck is not Type I viable.

    For starters, this deck bears a striking resemblance to the traditional deck, Suicide Black. It was a deck designed to beat creatureless control by disrupting the opponent quickly and laying down a cheap, powerful creature that could quickly finish the opponent off. Creatures favoured for this deck were Hypnotic Specter, Nantuko Shade, and Phyrexian Negator. However, in the current era, creatureless control no longer exists. In addition to cards like Goblin Welder, many control decks also pack Fire & Ice, the bane of many Suicide Black decks.

    Here is a typical Suicide Black build:

    4x Nantuko Shade
    4x Phyrexian Negator
    4x Hypnotic Specter
    2x Withered Wretch

    4x Sinkholes
    4x Duress
    4x Hymn to Tourach
    1x Demonic Tutor
    1x Demonic Consultation
    1x Yawgmoth's Will
    1x Necropotence
    4x Dark Ritual
    3x Null Rod

    4x Wasteland
    1x Strip Mine
    18x Swamp

    To begin, your deck has less disruption than a traditional Sui Black build. Where it has Sinkhole, Duress, and Hymn to Tourach, you're packing Oubliette, Terror, and Diabolic Edict. If the traditional tools are insufficient to disrupt control decks, your tools are going to be even worse. Trying to deal with 4-colour control's Exalted Angel with a Diabolic Edict is doomed to failure. By that point, 4-colour control will certainly have plenty of counter magic to back up its threat. By abandoning one of the first principles of Suicide Black, you've made the deck even worse.

    Your deck also relies on suboptimal win conditions. Phyrexian Negator and Nantuko Shade have enormous capacity to deal damage quickly. Small shadow creatures are slow clocks that will not give your opponent cause for concern. Further, Fire & Ice will handle your threats as readily as they'll deal with Negator and Shade. Additionally, Swords to Plowshares is even stronger against smaller creatures and they make the race even easier for Exalted Angel to win.

    Any deck that wishes to lay down any disruption whatsoever typically must pack a complement of Strip Mine and Wastelands. Your deck has none, further weakening it, even compared to the weak traditional Suicide build.

    Sinister Strength & Parallax Dementia are simply suboptimal options. You are trying to make up for the fact that you're creatures are smaller than those traditionally found in this deck, but all you're really doing is filling slots with sub-par cards and generating card disadvantage.

    Drain Life & Consume Spirit are decent, I suppose. At least they serve double-duty as creature kill and win condition. I'm not sure why you're running any Drain Life, though. It's strictly inferiour to Consume Spirit.

    Finally, if all that your deck can achieve is a turn 4 win, then you can abandon any hope of beating any mainstream combo deck, for which the critical turn is three, without disruption or four, with disruption (which will push back your turn 4 goldfish). Particularly without important disruption tools like Null Rod and Hymn to Tourach, you really seem to have abandoned any matchup against a combo deck.
  8. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Hey NS - Let me know your addy and I'll send you a "train" pack, just for this deck!... they're full of Magic Goodies!

    :cool:
  9. Killer Joe Active Member

    Nightstalkers: I am not qualified to really comment or contribute to your deck, although it looks pretty good to me, EVEN after train's adjustments :p . However, I am glad to see the good people of the CPA, as always, give you a hand up in your situation when you asked for it. Presenting any idea/deck to this group should always be absent of fear of looking 'goofy' or as a bad player/deck builder. It's tough to put one's idea's out there just to have them torn apart without regard to one's self-esteem (which I know you have a lot of it! :)). I hope I have not offended you at anytime in this manner.

    Keep up the good work stalking these pages.

    Sincerely,
    ~Mark O.
  10. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    Well, I seem to be getting favor from posting my thoughts on the cards instead of just dumping them in and not posting comment on the others... so I'll try the same thing with the posts:

    Well... In the T1 tourneys I've played with this deck as the main event, I've found that it does outstandingly well against whatever competition was out there; and even when it was going through its first generation of blossoming out and figuring out how to kill (The one I'm working on now is build 4 of this deck) and still it used to keep a solid 4th turn kill unless people played creature disruption or some other type of strategy... You can talk to Mr. Pestilence about the deck, but its been a year and he's a bit sketchy. Heck, I'm even using idea's from the deck as well as his playing style he played against me to bolster my decks.

    I might just try throwing in a Hypnotic specter for the disruption it throws in... Its a 2/2 flyer for 3 mana anyways, so I might as well give it a go. As for things like Nantuko Shade, I find myself not gaining sufficient amounts of mana to even make the card worthwile in a deck such as mine without disabling other idea's and kinks I may want to throw in during my second main phase.

    Sorry to break it to ya, but I don't really have much at my disposal to work from. I don't even have one Suppress... Never was playing T1 or anything during that time... Heck, I think that was during the time of my hiatus from Magic... >.>;;

    What is the #1 way to end game someone? Dmg. What is the #1 way to dish out dmg? Creatures. I'm just trying to use an antiquated method in which to deliver my package of dmg sufficiently and securely with minimal instability.

    I don't face control all that often. I find that a 1 for 1 tradeoff for mana in a deck doesn't really help me out all that much. Basically what I'm trying to say here is that I don't want to be stuck in a situation where my opponent has 2 untapped Islands while i have a swamp, a strip mine, a Dauthi Horror, and the twisted decision of either postponing my creature being put out to destroy both one of mine and one of my opponents lands, leaving me to pray to all thats unholy that my opponent doesn't draw another island, or to just go ahead and play the creature and let it be countered.

    Hmm... Note: Might try straight land destruction via strip mine + Crucible of Worlds

    Thats harsh. For the low low price of 3 mana I can have a 5/2 shadow creature out on turn 1 even with the help of a dark ritual... Heck, if I wanted I could make it instead a 6/2 shadow on turn 3-4.

    The key here is what you have already stated earlier:

    "Small shadow creatures are slow clocks that will not give your opponent cause for concern."

    Okay... a 2/1 shadow for 2 mana isn't too frightening... A 4/2 shadow for 3 mana is plausable... But howabout a 2/1 that'll become an 8/7 that is unblockable? Nah, my opponent will just laugh his pants off and go goofy that I'm playing shadow... but what happens when he looses to my shadow? Interesting idea...

    The deck used to run straight Drain Life, but I'm a bit paranoid that someone will try to Lobotomize me... or sicker yet, Quash to squash my finisher/creature killer.

    Thats nice... But I've played in T1 before and haven't seen many which would actually do a turn 3 kill unless they had a lucky draw or something else. Personally, I can't really think of any that'll do it right off hand, but it seems like a good idea. 20 dmg in 3 turns... Hmm... Super Sligh or something else that's kinda harsh.

    Oh... that reminds me that I've gotta find a way to keep sligh at bey... Hmm, I'll meditate on that.
  11. Ephraim New Member

    Note that I specified that the decks that had consistent turn three kills were combo decks. Belcher, Worldgorger Dragon, and The Perfect Storm all have the capacity to execute a very fast kill, with little concern for what you're doing. If you're not disrupting them, they'll go off before you can kill them. Now, if you don't face combo decks, either, then that leaves aggro decks. If that's all you're facing, then your deck may be fine, but I assure you that your metagame is not a typical, competetive Type I metagame.

    As far as my criticism of the enchantments goes, I know that it's harsh, but it's true. Using Phyrexian Negator, you have the opportunity to get a 5/5 trampler on the table, first turn with a Dark Ritual. This requires two cards. In order to get your 5/3 Shadow creature on the table on the first turn, you require at least one dark ritual and a Unholy Strength or multiple dark rituals and one of your other enchantments. Now only is the situation that leads to this much less likely than the situation that leads to Phyrexian Negator, but it leaves you with far fewer cards, when you're done.

    I don't think you need to be afraid of Lobotomy or Quash in a typical Type I metagame. If they appear in your area, then sure, defend against them. However, even in that case, you would be statistically better off with a 2/2 split on Drain Life and Consume Spirit.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I sympathize with the problem of not having a lot of cards/funds with which to work. However, it is important to acknowledge that yes, one's lack of material really can prevent one from competing in Type I. It bothers me immensely, but I am hard pressed to deny it.
  12. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Ephraim:
    Despite the title of the thread, where one could take it to mean "general" or "all" Type 1 in the world, his local metagame is really what he needs to care about, unless he does plan on going to a GenCon or other "national" tourney (which he hasn't said so far).

    I think your comments are great suggestions and of course if it can make the deck better while staying true to the original vision (which looks like shadow is a theme), all the better.
  13. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    Thats the problem, I want to try for an all around sound T1 deck without having to go through my pink book to really use any idea's from past tournaments.

    Currently, I'm thinking of splashing the blue into the deck to add some counters and whatever quickies I can that blue is good for... Perhaps I could get lucky with a bribery. Ha, I don't know anymore.
  14. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Well, forget what I said then :)
  15. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    It might have been addressed earlier and I just missed it, but...

    Phyrexian Arena? And just one. In a monoblack deck? I can understand that people do use Phyrexian Arena, even if I think it's a bad card...

    But always use Necropotence over it. No matter how much Phyrexian Arena has disproven my criticism since it was printed, Necropotence is ABSOLUTELY better.
  16. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    Missed that post by Killer Joe... Well, I've about progressed this deck as far as I can think of how to adjust it, now I'm just at the end of my coil grasping for the straws

    The problem I find with Necropotence is not being able to draw after your 19th or less time using it. If you are going to use it for any extended period of time, you have to be able to either bite the loss of life or to find a way to get around it.

    ...

    and... well... I only had one Necropotence ever, and it was stolen a while back. Meh... only liked the card art anyways.
  17. Exaulted_Leader New Member

    Rockin'.

    I fooled around with mono-black beats for a while. I don't think your build is half bad, either. What I'd have done, myself:


    Land:
    15x Swamp
    2x Mishra's Factory
    3x Lake of the Dead

    Spells:
    4x Sinister Strength
    4x Unholy Strength
    4x Dark Ritual
    4x Diabolic Edict
    4x Devour in Shadow

    Creatures (a.k.a. : The Violence):

    4x Dauthi Slayer
    4x Dauthi Marauder
    4x Dauthi Horror
    4x Dauthi Warlord
    4x Dauthi Shade (...I know, I know - don't get ansy about the cumulative upkeep. Just pay it once, and throw all the mana you can muster into a rediculously annihilating blow).

    Sideboard:

    Depends on your meta. Maybe some Spreading Algae, a bit of critter D, some hand disruption (Cabal Therapy, Hymn to Tourach and Duress work wonders, as can a well-timed Persecute).


    The present T1 competitive scene has Fish running dominant all over the place. Fish's achilles heel? Aggro.

    Your deck may, in fact, do very well in the current T1 environment (you'd have to steer clear of 4CC, definately... I'm not sure how this would match-up against TNT (or the more recently acclaimed 'The Man Show' - hehehe...), but it certainly wouldn't hurt to take it for a spin a see what kind of damage it does.
  18. Ephraim New Member

    That's true to a point, Exalted Leader, but it must be taken with a grain of salt. I agree that this deck will probably manhandle Fish. However, the largest part of what Fish has done is decrease the appearance of 'Tog and Workshop based decks in the metagame. There is still 4-colour control with which to contend and it has a favourable matchup versus fish and beats this, hands down. As a metagame deck, this archetype may be suitable as a Fish-killer. However, as with any metagame deck it is vitally important that one recognize the deck's weaknesses, of which Suicide Black and variants have many.
  19. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Don't you have the lifegain cards such as Drain Life in the deck to help being able to use Necro more than 19 or less times? :)
  20. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    Exhaulted_Leader: Dauthi Shade? And the problem with warlord is that you have to have a prescence on the field with your shadows to really be worth much, otherwise he turns out being a 1/1 for 2 mana. But still, worth at least looking into. I'll try this modification and see if it is viable for me to modify more.

    Spiderman: More or less yeah... but more times than not a drain life is used as a coup de grace, and not just something to build up the steam on my opponent, or to remove a very annoying creature.

    Ephraim: I could always go back to trying to build my coffee cup deck (black,blue,white), but all it was turning out to be was a compilation of multiple strategies for which I must say does not go well together. Donation deck plus a b/w transcendence doesn't really go together too well.

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