Sensei's Divining Crazp

[Oversoul]

I think I've already presented the "why" of that...

What might be unclear is that I do not believe that WotC, regardless of any other faults I might accuse them of, has done this.

A card being underpowered yet having some use in Standard (but not in other formats) is not the same as the card being DESIGNED specifically for Standard and Standard only.

 

[Spiderman]

I'm still a bit confused over the intent of the original post: Are you wondering WHY people are playing with this card in the first place and why it's so popular?

 

[Rooser]

Yes he is.

 

[Spiderman]

So is the discussion whether this card is overhyped or the people playing it are seeing something that MrPapersHead isn't?

 

[Oversoul]

I think there are several other factors which are probably bigger influences, but I think part of it is...

People are used to playing with artifacts a lot now, thanks to the last block.

 

[MrPapersHead]

So are you saying that people are just going to continue along in their monotony of using artifacts, and not actually use this card because it were, say, good?

It does have some neat interactions with cards that shuffle, scry, and othere stuff like that. Commune with nature comes to mind.

I am just mad and confused that decks that have access to perfectly good card drawing spells use this instead. If it were as support or as back-up, then I could understand.

 

[Oversoul]

I'm not saying it's the only reason, or that it will continue for an extended period of time. I'm just saying that it is possible that people have gotten into the mindset of "artifacts are good." This could be especially true in Standard, where Mirrodin is a huge influence...

I think another factor is the reusability of the card.

 

[mythosx]

There's nothing wrong with the top...only your expectations. Wizards has an idea of how they want thier game to be. And it is not the same as yours. They can't make all moxes. If you look at card drawing as a whole nowadays your paying close 3 mana per extra card...and only 1 card extra per spell. Blue and black have now lost their crazy card drawing abilities. And its better this way. In 5 more years when a new era of magic players are among us we can actually dazzle them with tales of long forgotten spells that would turn their new standard upside down.

 

[Rooser]

Actually, you're wrong because in an Era-Of-Poor-Card-Drawing-And-Slower-Aggro nobody will understand strategy enough to believe that something like Ancestral Recall could actually win you the game or that Counterspell is actually meta-game altering.

 

[mythosx]

I don't think so...If i told any new kid that played magic that there was a card out there that was pay U draw three cards, they all understand how insane that is. I don't know exactly what you meant by your post rooser...but in an era of slower "aggro" and poor card drawing, people stand a better chance of learning strategy cuz they can actually see turns unfold and understand how much difference a turn can make instead of playing in games where the games are decided by the coin toss.

 

[Oversoul]

What format is seriously decided by coin toss?

 

[Mikeymike]

Originally posted by Oversoul
What format is seriously decided by coin toss?

Type Thumb (Krark's Thumb that is).

Oh I slay me!

I like the Top with anything that interacts with the top card of your libraray. Examples include:

Call of the Wild
Future Sight
Kaboom! Erratic Explosion
Temporal Aperature
Gate to the AEther.

And as Chaos Turtle points out, it is excellent with functions that shuffle your library. In fact I'd go so far to say that you have to play this with effects that shuffle your library, since it gives you a nice Brainstorm every turn (and with its 'Tap' ability, it pretty much is a Brainstorm every turn, except it costs 2 instead of U.

However, in casual I'm trying to look at this card and compare it to Scroll Rack, Soothsaying, and Sylvan Library. Right now I am under the impression that most of the time it is inferior to each. That said, I do think it can co-exist in the same deck with either card, and can specifically come in handy for Red and/or White.

I think it has its uses, I myself haven't found a home for it yet but I will play around with it.

 

[Oversoul]

It's no Scroll Rack, but some decks only use Scroll Rack for very limited purposes, rather than with large amounts of cards. It is here that the Divining Top could shine casually...

 

[mythosx]

any format with decks that kill on turn 1...or 2....

 

[Oversoul]

Not true...

Vintage has a few good decks with first turn kill potential. It is not decided by coin toss. Most of the best decks are control decks anyway, with only the most finely tuned and well piloted combo decks actually pulling off those insanely fast kills.

Other formats have decks that can kill quickly too.

My friend had an MD5 block deck that could potentially kill first turn. I never saw it actually do so, but it could.

Given that, I would say most formats have the potential for some fast combo decks.

 

[MrPapersHead]

Everyone always does the whole, T1 is won by a coin flip thing, and it makes me shudder how little people really know about that format. The cards that let you do that are restricted. Which means you have a 1/60 chance of seeing it in a game, let alonge in your opening hand. T1 decks are about total board control, usually winning with small utitlity creatures like Mishra's Factories. I have seen some combos go off turn one in my day, but replicating that time and time again is extremely hard and requires something we call luck.

I ask you now to think about a format that just recently passed where kids were piloting decks that let you win on turn three or four in a more than regular fashion. In fact, it was pretty much nearly every game that this happened. (Combo Winter was a 'long' time ago, so it obviously can't be that.) There was not a lot you could do about these decks except to gain life, and that didn't even gaurantee anything. When mirror matches showed up, it was a fast and furious race, and if the decks facing each other were equal, whoever won the first turn usually won the game. These decks ran none of the so called Godly cards from back in the day. These decks were all about super synergy that wizards basically threw in their face and said we made the decks for you already, all you have to do is buy the cards.

What happened to these decks? People played and played and played them. They saw so much play that wizards decided to ban a card that they thought would hurt them and 'fix' the meta-game that wizards had mistakenly created; but it only truly hurt their rivals, giving these decks just as much advantage in the playing field as before. Usually a Wrath of God helps level the playing field, but when this day and age existed, turn 4 was way too late.

Can you people guess which format I speak of, and when it happened? The first one to guess gets a virtual Cookie.

 

[Mikeymike]

Academy? Lots of messed up decks during Saga's initial days. Though it sounds like you could be referring to Clamp-finity too.

 

[Oversoul]

SCG's "decks to beat" for Vintage are currenty as follows...

4C Control: I don't think this can get a second turn kill at all. It is better known for Mana Draining into Exalted Angel or Skeletal Scrying. It's not a fast deck by any stretch of the imagination.

7/10 Split: This deck tries to get board control by Welding in Sundering Titan to take out opposing dual lands. It has the nasty capability of getting Memory Jar out quickly and going broken, but it's not going for second turn kills.

Affinity: This is an aggro deck, and fast enough. Still, I would say its clock runs a bit slower than second turn most games.

Bazaar Madness: Another fast aggro deck. Still, I think third turn is more realistic for such aggro decks barring godlike hands.

Belcher: Obviously this is the perfect example of what Mythosx is talking about. It also loses to even small quantities of disruption. To my knowledge, this deck has never really reached tier 1.

Control Slavery: This deck attempts to lock the opponent down with Goblin Welder/Mindslaver. This makes for longer games.

Food Chain Goblins: If it goes crazy with Goblin Recruiter and Food Chain, then it does have a fast kill. Even without them, it can pull of some fast beats. Second turn would be a bit optimistic though...

GAT: I suppose if things go perfectly for it, Yawgmoth's Will can get a relatively fast kill. Normally things are a lot slower.

Hulk Smash: Once again, this deck focuses on keeping control, and fast kills are very rare.

Long Death: A very fast combo deck. It also happens to be very difficult to pilot. While the speed is adequate, it isn't enough to be dominant.

Mono Blue: This deck uses Ophidian. It is not fast.

Stacker: I'm not sure what the fastest kill for this deck would be, but first turn Juggernaut, second turn Juggernaut isn't going to be a second turn kill...

Tools 'n Tubbies: Not particularly fast.

TPS: It is good not because it has more speed than other combo decks, but because it is more resilient.

Trinistax: Prison decks aren't typically fast.

U/G Madness (Budget!): I don't know why this would be on the list. I doubt it's as fast as the other Madness deck.

U/R Fish: It attacks with Mishra's Factory and Spiketail Hatchling and stuff. Not fast.

Workshop Slavery: Another prison deck that attempts to take all of your turns for you. It is slow.

As for the format Mr. Paper Shead is talking about, I am not sure what counts as "passed recently."

MD5 block comes to mind as a format where Wizards basically built the decks for players to use (as the synergies were so blatantly obvious). Then again, that pretty well describes what has been going on for the last four blocks (but without so much brokenness before Mirrodin). It looks like it may finally have been halted in this latest block, which is good.

 

[MrPapersHead]

So what are you voting for Mikeymike? You can't win a cookie if you don't pick one. Does anyone else want answer?

C'mon, Virtual Cookie at stake here!

 

[Chaos Turtle]

I figure you meant Trix, which made Extended evil and sickening for a long long time. But I wouldn't say that it "recently passed." In Magic time, that was ages ago. It does fit the banning story though: Dark Ritual was the first to go, and Necro -- the actual problem card -- was the last. Sadly the deck was so broken that it was still powerful after the Necro ban; the environment was only rescued by just rotating out two whole blocks.

Keep the cookie though; I don't know where it's been.