Randy's response to the Poker Vs. Magic debate

[mythosx]

Originally posted by Oversoul
If I drop a card with Illusionary Mask and you kill it, but it was Birds of Paradise, then I drop another and attack next turn with a Phyrexian Dreadnought, you just fell for a bluff...

No, look at it this way. I am holding lightning bolts. You drop a bop...I bolt it. It dies. You drop a Dreadnought, I bolt it. It tears me a new a-hole. Same would apply if I had dark banishings. Things you might think involve bluffing really don't. Drawing out spells in the case of terrors are not bluffing. Its logical. You just have to do it. And if you had two face down creatures a bop and a nought. It would be a game of probability and not bluffing.

 

[Oversoul]

I guess I can accept that. It depends on how you define "bluffing" I guess. I think the game does have some amount of potential bluffing involved, but it's certainly not the same sort as what's in poker...

I think it was a bad example anyway though, but it was the first one that came to mind.

RL: Well, personally I think that Mask and FEB are best as separate decks and and would do best if they stayed that way. But Venguer Masque (I think that's the most common name, but I'm not sure why it is) has been used. It tends to play as a Mask deck, but if can also use Survival of the Fittest, which I suppose is broken and all, but still...

On another note, I remember actually doing something like this...

*going through combo, trying to find a way to pull it off*
"Yeah yeah, seen it before. So, I lose..."
"Well, yeah..." *realizing I can't win and can only kill myself or say go*
"Okay..." *opponent scoops*

Bluffing was not my plan here, but it sure worked, if it can be called bluffing...

 

[Spiderman]

I'm not familiar with Illusionary Mask, but actually, using morph creatures is a great example for bluffing. Most are fairly decent anyway and you can kinda narrow down the colors being played (at least, you could, not sure what 5th Dawn might due to such a deck), but "drawing out cards" based on an unknown morph creature is still bluffing. Same as trying to keep a green open for a Giant Growth or 2 Islands open for a Counterspell - the other player doesn't know what can happen and has to make decisions on the unknown. Is the morph creature a simple 2/1 guy or an Exalted Angel? Should I take the 2 damage or Bolt now, hoping that even if it unMorphs, the 3 damage is enough to kill it? It's a lot of bluffing...

 

[Oversoul]

And I did that sort of thing in draft. I had a Black Knight with Sleeper's Robe and a face down creature that I attacked with. The opponent could not block both. He of course blocked the Knight and let the face down creature through. Well, I suppose he called my bluff. Except that it wasn't a bluff. It was that bladed dude that eats half the opponent's life...

 

[mythosx]

Originally posted by Oversoul
I guess I can accept that. It depends on how you define "bluffing" I guess. I think the game does have some amount of potential bluffing involved, but it's certainly not the same sort as what's in poker...

I think it was a bad example anyway though, but it was the first one that came to mind.

RL: Well, personally I think that Mask and FEB are best as separate decks and and would do best if they stayed that way. But Venguer Masque (I think that's the most common name, but I'm not sure why it is) has been used. It tends to play as a Mask deck, but if can also use Survival of the Fittest, which I suppose is broken and all, but still...

On another note, I remember actually doing something like this...

*going through combo, trying to find a way to pull it off*
"Yeah yeah, seen it before. So, I lose..."
"Well, yeah..." *realizing I can't win and can only kill myself or say go*
"Okay..." *opponent scoops*

Bluffing was not my plan here, but it sure worked, if it can be called bluffing...

OK that is a bluff...but personally never scoop unless that effect that is going to kill you is on the stack.

 

[Oversoul]

I don't see myself falling for a similar trick. But some people are just too lazy or impatient or whatever it is...

 

[train]

such big talk about something...

I think you're all bluffing...

the difference is whether you're playing the player, or the cards...

In Magic - I believe it's the cards...

 

[orgg]

Poker is a great game, though I feel its time in the limelight won't be but six to eight years. However, I don't think it's a detriment to Magic-- Dave Williams was a Magic player before he won the WSOP, and he's still a Magic player after winning the WSOP. People will be googling for Dave Williams, see that he's a Magic player, and become interested in Magic as well as Poker.

As for bluffing in Magic... it's there. I've won a few times with it, too.

Case in point: Cursed Scroll on board, opponent at three. Last turn I played the sixth swamp out since I reset the board and me to two swamps... so I've drawn four swamps overall. I'm at two, and he's got a 2/1 creature. I draw another swamp. I activate Cursed Scroll targetting him, and name Pox.

He bangs his head on the table, scoops up his cards, shuffles his deck once, and reaches to shake my hand.

I shake his hand and hand him the swamp at the same time. He's shocked, and amazed that he fell for it.

 

[Apollo]

There's definitely bluffing in Magic. It might not be to the degree that it is in poker, but it's there. Those of you saying it's all probability, not bluffing--well, you can contend that poker is best played entirley with probability, too.

I think the two games are entirely different entities. Why Randy is comparing them is beyond me--they have nothing in common except that they're both played with cardboard.

 

[Spiderman]

Apollo's back!

 

[train]

Hey Apollo!!!...

Magic and Poker also have in common mr williams!...

and all of us casual guys...

 

[Killer Joe]

I thought the whole connection between Poker and MTG was the whole probability thing. You know, counting cards, figuring out how many were dealt, what's the possibility that your opponent drew the card they needed to win, stuff like that.

Also, the "Mind Game" (bluffing/Jedi Mind Trick).

There are similarities, too:
Both are a competative card game.
Both can be played casually.
Both have luck & stratagy involved.
Both are somewhat addictive.
Both cost moo-lah!!!! $$$


I read Andy Balins' book Poker Nation it was a good read.

 

[train]

My guess is that the probability is much harder to calculate in Poker - though they do have that in common...

More cards are normally "seen" in Magic, making it easier to count...

 

[mythosx]

Originally posted by train
My guess is that the probability is much harder to calculate in Poker - though they do have that in common...

More cards are normally "seen" in Magic, making it easier to count...

I would think its the other way. All the probabilities have already been counted If one would take the time to memorize such things.

 

[train]

But in Poker you have to memorize 7 sets of probabilities, based on the number of players left in the game, and what the players no longer in the current hand have taken out of the deck...

"I Love Math... but want to do architecture... hmm..."

Magic is much more limited...

 

[Spiderman]

I agree with mythosx; that's still a finite or fixed number of probabilities limited to 52 cards, while the "often used" cards of Magic is much more than that (just between two people, you can have around 120 unique cards).

 

[train]

The difference is - you have help in calculating odds in Magic because you know what's in the discarded pile (graveyard) and can do further elimination from there...

The biggest certain percentage of the deck consists of lands - where it doesn't help the Magic player much late game, but they are still there...

In poker - even the deuces can give you a two-pair, 3 of a kind, flush, straight, or full house hand...

The discard pile in poker is always face down - so when it comes down to 2 or 3 players with 2 cards each, and at most 5 cards visible from the dealer - you most likely only know 7 of the cards dealt from the deck... your two and the dealer's 3-5...

come third turn for Magic there are reasonably - 5-6 lands on the table, and 2-3 other permanents minimum...

You "know more" in Magic, and can better calculate the odds.
You know what's in the graveyards, your hand, in play, and sometimes your opponent's hand, and even top card of the decks...

"did I say that right - deuces are mainly more powerful than lands?!!!..."

 

[Spiderman]

Maybe we need to define what "probability" we're talking about here...

 

[train]

...

I'm having no good ideas on how to do this...

 

[mythosx]

I believe train is referring to the 2nd and 3rd rounds of a matchup. Once you know whats in the opponents deck and sideboard the probabilities become extremely easy to disect. The reason being it is not the configuration of cards you need to account for the probability of existing but rather individual cards the opponent has in their hands. Plus, some magic players are nancy boys and lunch monkeys so when you see their faces light up you know they got the card that will win the game, or they think will win the game.

The type of magic I play the most is 7 card stud. Which is why I think the probabilities are easiest to calculate. Cuz you see 4 of the 7 cards face up in each players hands. In a game of draw poker the probabilities go up. Texas holdem, probably the most popular type of all, the probabilities are alll screwy. I recommend 5 card stud if you got the balls, cuz thats by far the easiest.