Please join the letter campaign to improve the Core Game

Discussion in 'CPA/WOTC Magic Issues' started by Notepad, Jul 27, 2004.

  1. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I know you're really just dying to see Mana Drain reprinted, Train...
  2. Ephraim New Member

    The drive of this article is interesting to me, because I am currently in the process of constructing decks, the sole purpose of which is teaching new players how to play Magic. What I am finding out is that in order to keep it simple enough that the new player is not constantly bombarded with new information, the decks have to contain some substandard cards. For example, Portal contained nothing but Creatures and Sorceries. I thought it was a good enough idea that in my 3-stage teaching process, the first stage does just that. (Second stage introduces instants; thirds stage introduces enchantments and creatures with instant-speed abilities.) Now, certainly, I don't think it's cool that WotC is selling packs of 80 pre-arranged, substandard cards for $12, but it's another thing entirely, I believe, if new players are loaned or given such stacks of cards by more experienced players.

    Furthermore, don't dismiss the value of cards like Eager Cadet or Grizzly Bears. They serve a valuable function in teaching new players how to assess the value of cards, both in and out of the context of the deck they're in. For example, the green training deck I've built uses both Nature's Lore and Grizzly Bears. After my trainee's gotten the hang of the deck, I might offer her a stack of cards to substitute in, among which would be Elvish Warrior and Rampant Growth. It would be instructive for her to realize that in a mono-green deck, Nature's Lore is better than Rampant Growth (but that Rampant Growth would be appropriate in a multi-coloured deck) and that Elvish Warrior is better than Grizzly Bears, except that in a multi-coloured deck, it might be more difficult to cast.
  3. Notepad Seffy Sefro

    I don't dismiss your point about beginners having to learn to gauge cards eventually. However, things like Eager Cadet and Iron Star--which are said to be around for that very purpose--are much more wastes of cardboard than teaching tools.

    Grizzly Bears is a fine example of a decent teaching card. It is easy to learn the game with. It is easy to learn to gauge with it, and later on, despite it being on the weak side, its not a totally dead card in your deck if you must put it in.

    Suntail Hawk and Flying Men are even better. as they'll be good for years down the road, perhaps even if the beginner would go to a tournament (hey...maybe someday weenie decks will come back). Though, they have flying, and the latter is unlikely to be reprinted.
  4. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I finally looked up what that Eager Cadet guy is...

    Wow, I'm confused. Why would they do that? Even Portal had Devoted Hero. Devoted Hero would be fine, really...

    Although at least Suntail Hawk is more viable than Devoted Hero when you break it all down...

    As far as gauging the power of cards, understanding the importance of the difference between Devoted Hero and Savannah Lions would seem like an important early stepping stone. Cadet makes no sense at all...

    But I expect some incompetence with any Magic-teaching stuff (Portal didn't set the standard very high). My confusion, what set is this piece of crap from? 8th edition, I presume, but what was it reprinted from? 7th? Well what about before that? I was under the assumption that the cards in the core sets, ever since Unlimited, have always been reprints of cards that previously existed. But my Appr. says this terrible creature was originally from 7th...
  5. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Obviously, Devoted Hero should replace Eager Cadet in 9th. There should also be Serra Zealot (not Tundra Wolves, please!) and Suntail Hawk, if they're serious about representing white's basic flavor as "the weenie color." Of course, they should keep Savannah lions in as well.

    I totally don't buy their argument that they need a vanilla 1/1 for each color. I don't think people are really that stupid that they can't wrap their brains around a vanilla 1/2 without seeing what a 1/1 looks like (besides, they can see that in blue and black, for which a vanilla 1/1 is perfectly acceptable).
  6. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Well, I was never a big fan of Muck Rats or Merfolk of the Pearl Trident, but I guess you're right...
  7. orgg Administrator

    Belive it or not, beginners do get hung up on uneven P/T somtimes...

    The generic 1/1s do have a point in a beginner's set... ifyou're trying to get the beginner to learn b y themself or with another unexperienced friend-- not from advanced or expert players like ourselves.
  8. Notepad Seffy Sefro

    I agree with your point, Orgg. Even p/t is needed for the first couple cards a beginner casts, which is why the first few are even. However, the Core Game quickly assumes that stepping stone is learned with Fugutive Wizard and by the time they get to Ogre Taskmaster (at turn four) they should know how to understand p/t, including uneven ones.

    While a vanilla 1/1 for one mana makes sense teaching-wise, it is totally underpowered game-wise. Even blue has 1/1s with abilities for a single mana. Even black, with the worst being the 1/1 swampwalk beetle for one mana. Even red (with goblins) has shown that it has a lot of interesting 1/1s for one mana with neat abilities. White and green should be the forrunners.

    An interesting note on vanilla 1/1s being undersatndable: Green's one-drop is Norwood Ranger, a 1/2 elf.

    WotC is certainly not being consistent with their teaching tools here.

    I'd say, tack on flying on some of them, and let the beginners learn with generic 1/1 fliers for a single mana (in blue and white...and possibly give green Spider Monkey). Red could use Raging Goblin, but that just might be throwing too many things at a beginner.

    As for where Eager Cadet came from...its origin is the Starter set, somewhat to be considered Portal 4 (though it was white bordered and had a star for a symbol) because it was so totally weak. The worst of the worst from this set were absorbed into 7E for reprint, which ticked off a lot of people (me included, to the point where I wrote on the issue) and WotC changed these turds to be in 8E's starter game only. This is the place garbage like Vizzerdrix and Trained Orgg came from.
  9. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Ah, okay. That explains it. My current version of Appr. doesn't list Portal sets, for some inexplicable reason. Which is too bad for Jungle Lion...
  10. Notepad Seffy Sefro

    It would be so nice if they brought back Jungle Lion. Everyone's acting like it would be awesome and overpowered...but Jackal Pup and Savannah Lion are merely good cards, not broken ones. There is nothing wrong with giving green a good weenie, especially since its worse than white's lion.
  11. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Yeah, River Boa would probably see more use still, casually. It would give stompy decks a bit of a boost, but I don't think it could be more than what Jackal Pup has done for Sligh. Both the Pup and Carnophage have disadvantages that are about on par with Jungle Lion. Savannah Lions is outright better. Everyone hates Mtenda Lion anyway...
  12. train The Wildcard!!!...

    bOA - THAT WOULD BE COOL!....
  13. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Bringing back Jackal Pup would be such a bad idea right now.

    Unless of course it means people play fewer freaking goblins. I miss Sligh when it was just Sligh, and not all these freaking goblins.
  14. Killer Joe Active Member

    How does "Stompy" benefit from River Boa? I have never seen it listed on any tournament worthy Stompy deck list.
  15. Notepad Seffy Sefro

    Mtenda Lion is a neat card, but everywhere you run (especially in tourneys) people can and do pack that annoying SCUMBAG mana (there is no such thing as *gag* blue). It is like that 2/1 rat from Torment: You'll never get a good use out of it because your opponents will almost always have a way around it thanks to the disability.
  16. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Stompy could benefit from Boas... They just need to be in the deck lists...

    2/1 reg. Islandwalk... come on... it sounds great to me...
  17. orgg Administrator

    On the 'Tender lion issue: I always looked at it like this: The blue player has to tap some of his or her valuble blue mana early in the game...

    ...allowing you to play another cheap, large and green creature.
  18. Notepad Seffy Sefro

    Never worked like that for me...

    I got a few hits in, but what is a life total to a blue player? They take their wounds until they have enough mana and then start denying your silly lion, too.

    If you happen to not be playing against blue, you have a mere 2/1. So, really, the 2/1 body is not worth such a hideous drawback. This thing is a lot of time on par with Scarred Puma (which I have seen win games in drafts).

    Jungle Lion is a much better choice for disabilities, and nowhere near broken.
  19. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    When I said "would" it was because I was talking about Jungle Lion. River Boa is already tournament legal, so it can't give any decks a "boost" unless they're new decks...
  20. orgg Administrator

    Why compare Jungle Lion/'Tender Lion?

    They'd go in the same deck, probably...

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