Piddly Mistakes

Discussion in 'CPA/WOTC Magic Issues' started by theorgg, Oct 1, 2001.

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  1. theorgg Slob

    I played in a 1.5 tourney yesterday with several friends at a local mall.

    One of my biggest fears nowdays is that I'll not fufill my obligations to the DCI by reporting some mistake or somthing similar and getting banned for any amount of time. I love this game and don't want to be excommunicated for something dumb as not calling a judge.

    Since the huge bannings have begun, I've started to call a judge whenever one of my opponents argue about somthing, simply to have a person who isn't in contention of winning the game to say what is right.

    However, I hate calling a judge for procedural error- minor, but I still do it because I don't want some tattletale saying "The Orgg lets takebacks!" and getting me banned.

    I was playing what turned out to be the final round against a fourteen year old kid. The first "bad thing" he did was casting Voice of All and naming "Artifacts." I waited a second to make sure the kid was serious. "JUDGE!" The kid is informed that it's a minor error, and he's cautioned to stay on the ball from now on, and he gets to name a colored protection. The second time he says that he'll block one of my creatures. He then taps it and says he never blocked and is taking one of the damage. "JUDGE." "did you say you blocked?" "I didn't block! I might have said it, but I didn't." "you must say what you mean, this is a warning, don't do it again? Ok?"

    Third time he puts two lands from his hand together and puts both of them down.

    Three people see this, though I dindn't notice, and one of them gets the judge. "This is a procedural error, and it ain't that minor, Guv'na." The judge is obviously stressed about handing a game loss to a player so much younger than I for three errors that, in casual play, would be trivial and an "oops" would be said, with the 'gression simply corrected.

    But in a tournament where the DCI mandates certain standards, such items can become problesome.

    The guy starts crying. I feel like a total pile of excrement sitting in that chair. I offer him most of the cards I've gotten that day, minus a couple of cards. He pushes them back.

    I sneak my foils I have in my binder into his to try to say "I'm sorry."

    Even the players who called the judge said that it was, to quote SoleSpecter, "A really gay way to loose. If that had been me, I'd never shake hands with you again" even though he was one of the people who spotted it.

    Only one person says the following: "Its a tournament. If he can't follow the rules, it's his fault."

    I have mixed feelings, personally. The guy has had episodes like this in just about all the games he's played.

    Anyone want to share their opinions on this?
  2. rkoelsch Angel Boy

    If it is a sanctioned tournament then he deserves the lost. He doesn't have to play in the tournament. Let's compare it to Poker. You are playing poker for money and an opponent says he/she will take 3 cards. They get dealt 3 cards look at them and then decide which 3 to dicard. Would you be upset then? Yes you would. As far as age goes, I know some 14/15 year old that know more about the game than I do. If the kid is not able to play the game at the proper skill level he shouldn't have joined the tournament. I have made mistakes, realized it after I took my hand off and took the punishment such mistakes often incur. That is part of the game.
  3. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I agree.

    In a tournament you hafta know the rules. Otherwise, if you get called on them, why the heck are you playing?

    It might have an "oily" feel but I don't think it's that much worse than having your opponent manascrewed and you walking all over him or him having mana but not putting anything out that can handle your stuff and you walking all over him.

    In a friendly type setting, obviously you have a bit more leeway and can allow takebacks and help the guy.
  4. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Unless its critical. I`ll always allow takebacks. In the last final I played in I helped my opponent work out which were the best cards for him to target with his spells.

    Even in a DCI tournament, its still a game.

    Ive never had a game or match loss scored against or for me. Except for one time when my opponent cast Time Spiral and shuffled his land back into his library untstead of untapping it. If it hadnt been the deciding third game against multi-Pro Tour player and general tough guy to beat, Warren Marsh, Id have let him fish his lands back of his deck.
  5. EricBess Active Member

    Sure, as a level 2 judge, I'm more than happy to add my two cents here.

    It sounds as if there are three different issues that happened and a judge got called on each one. Tell me, what is the REL of this particular event? I get the impression that this was a casual tournament (not a QT), probably REL 2 or 3, right?

    - First issue - Voice of All: Artifact. Artifact is not a legal call for Voice of All. Unless this is a high level event, it is appropriate to simply explain this to the player and not worry about calling a judge. This is not a "take back" because he has not actually named a color. If he insists, call a judge and let the judge explain. At a high-level event (QT or higher), I might consider it a procedural error: misrepresentation. At a normal tourney, I would correct the rules knowledge and (maybe) issue a cation.

    - Second issue - To block or not to block. This is hard to call because it is a case of two players disagreeing on what is said. I can't really call this one because I wasn't there and didn't have a chance to see if anyone saw what happened, etc. Again, however, I'm not sure if a warning is in order unless I feel someone was trying to get away with something. Basically, I would need to make a ruling on what I thought happened and let the game proceed from there.

    - Third issue - Dual lands. Was this an accident or was it cheating? That's the only question I would need to ask here. It sounds like it might have been an accident. It is probably a major (not severe) procedural error in my opinion. It is not minor because of the advantage that it would give if he "got away with it". However, it is not severe, either, because it is easy to correct. Plus, it is not the type of thing that is easy to "get away with". Unless I suspected cheating (and from what you say, that is not the case), a warning is appropriate. If the judge feels that this fits into the same category of offence as the previous "offences", he can upgrade to a game loss.

    As such, I don't think I personally would have been so harsh, but the judge was within his bounds here. Yes, the kid is probably just inexperienced, but rulings need to be consistent. Trust me, as a judge, if you are not consistent, unethical players will try to use leverage against you.

    More to say, but this post is getting a bit long.
  6. EricBess Active Member

    Comment on "take backs" - There is nothing technically illegal with letting your opponent take back something. If a judge is watching the match, he must enforce rules, but doesn't award penalties unless cheating is suspected. If a judge is called over, warnings may or may not be issued based on the type of offence and the ruling given.

    If your opponent wishes to take a play back and you let them, that is your business. If a judge is called, the take back cannot be allowed. However, if you allow take backs, don't expect it to be reciprocated.

    At the prerelease, on the undefeated tables, I was called over. Time had been called and the match standing was 0-1 for player B. Player A had just attacked with a bunch of creatures. The 5 turns are pretty much up, so player B just has to survive this attack to win the match. Otherwise, the match is a draw.

    One of the creatures player A is attacking with is a Beast token and player B missed it. Bottom line is that he could have easily blocked everything and avoided the loss. He had made a comment to indicate that damage was coming through.

    The first question I has was whether or not the beast token was hiding. Both players aknowledge that he knew it was there, but missed it in this particular attack. Player A had arranged his attackers in an odd formation, so it was missed. Then the question became whether or not player B had finished declaring blockers. This was a bit trickier to call, but he admitted saying something to the effect of "I take 2", so I had to rule that his block was final.

    The reason I bring this up is because I know player B and had a chance to talk with him after the match. Just a few turns prior, he had let player A take back a rather crutial play. Then, when it came to the wire, player A didn't let him budge on something that he could have very easily avoided.

    So, bottom line is that if you want to allow your opponent a take back, go for it. But ask yourself if you are letting him get away with something if you do.
  7. EricBess Active Member

    Oh, and Gizmo, I've met Warren and I dare say that he probably accepted the game loss stoically.
  8. Hetemti The Wide-Awake Nightmare

    Don't buy the bullcrap. They "crying" was probably just a fa├žade to make you took bad. Even if it was real, the kid needs to stay casual until he gets the rules down. Rules are rules. Not "do this, but if you don't, either "oops" your way out of it, or cry like a little baby and humiliate your opponent."

    It must be noted that the offer of cards was a bad choice. Doing so means you accept fault for his crying...and certified your being in the wrong, when you weren't.

    I'd've told him where to go for the game's rules and advised him to study them well.
  9. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    It seems to me that three such errors in a game is a bit excessive. I don't think I would have awarded a game loss, especially if it wasn't a serious tourney, but I would certainly want players to know the basic rules a bit better than that.
  10. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    Was it anyone we knew, Theorgg?

    Ransac, cpa trash man

  11. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    voice of all artifact, I wouldn't have called a judge. No problem, the kid mis-read it. I would have explained it and let him re-call

    his block/unblock, I might have called a judge, but probably not. Depends on how crucial it was (so I'm a little bloodthirsty) and how experienced the kid seems.

    Laying down two lands as one? Definately called a judge. voice of all is misunderstanding, and the block can be attributed to confusion, but this sounds like a way to try and cheat out of a bad situation.
  12. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Ericbess: Warren actually wriggled like a snake to get out of the gameloss. When I called the judge over Warren said that he felt that he may have only put the lands on the top or bottom of his libary after he had finished shuffling, and bullied the judge into allowing him to look at the top and bottom of his library to see if it was six land, and if it was then he would be able to play on.

    I was pretty cross because it gave him a chance to just flop six random lands and win, but the judge went with Warren cos he`s famous.

    Neverthless he didnt flop 6 lands at either end of his library, and so he had to accept the loss.
  13. Wonka YellowJackoff

    I know you feel sorry Org. God the kid is 14 years old. Let him make mistakes. Did you know the kid???? did he just start to play????? I mean that is why some people quit Magic because people like that take it so serious. I do not like people like that. It is just a cheap way to get a win in my opinion. Like Gizmo I allow most takebacks.
  14. terzarima New Member

    Are you saying that 14 year olds can't handle the rules? Guess how old I am Mr. Wonka, eh? 14. I'm a level 1 judge. Now, I don't want to just flaunt that title around, and it isn't really a MAJOR accomplishment, but generalizing an age group and saying "Oh, he's young and stupid, let him make mistakes" is a bad philosophy to adopt. 14 isn't that young.
  15. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    Wonka, allowing people to make errors and misunderstand things because of their age is an inherently flawed method. (It's also the method our entire school system is built on, but that's another complaint for another day.) Some of the smartest people I know are between 10 and 16. The rules are there for a very good reason, and comprehension of them IS important. If an error is not corrected the first time it occurs, it can continue to occur, creating larger errors down the line.

    Almost anyone CAN understand the rules of Magic. And playing in tournaments is a learning experience - You learn a new rule every day, it seems. Taking that opportunity away from someone because of their age is hurtful to everyone. If errors in rules knowledge are not corrected, the problem grows exponentially. Therefore, the problem must be corrected.

    It is not in question that Orgg's opponent should be informed of the rules and corrected. If anything is in question, it is how the punishment for said rules should be handled. Most of us say a take-back would be appropriate. Some disagree. But there's no excuse for allowing someone to remain ignorant because it's "nice."

    It's not "nice." It's cruel. Because someday they'll run into someone who isn't as nice as you, and they'll get nailed because they don't know something YOU could have taught them.

    Teaching is good.
  16. theorgg Slob

    The thing I'm wondering is if calling the judge on such things was the correct thing to do...
  17. Mr.Gnome The Great Flaming Gnome

    I personally take offense at the idea that a 14 yearold can't understand the rules, i am currently 13 and I won my first sanctioned tourny and 25 bucks (ya it's not a lot but lots of good people were there) when i was 12 years old! I have since then won a few more tournys and lots of top 3 finishes in other tournys, I got 9th at the local oddessy pre release and my friend who is 14 now won 5th place in the JSS a couple years ago! I am not sayin that im like a pro tour player or anything like that, im just saying that i know the rules of the game pretty well and I think that if you are gonna play in a tournament then you should know the rules.
  18. Apollo Bird Boy

    IMHO, if you have the slightest doubt, it is never wrong to call a judge. They are impartial observers, and that is why they are there. If you aren't sure of how the situation should be handled, you should call the judge.

    However, I think you should forget that silly idea that they're going to ban you if you don't call out an opponent's mistake. That's not going to happen. If you feel that a take-back is appropriate, you can let 'em do it. If not, call the judge.

    Now, as for the specific cases:

    1) You can let him just pick a new color. Just correct him, and let him know why he's wrong. Calling a judge isn't really necessary, though as I said, it's certainly not wrong.

    2) Explain what happened to the kid. If he refuses to put the blocker where he announced it, you have to call the judge.

    3) Laying 2 land in a turn is pretty bad, and a hard mistake to make. Calling a judge here is appropriate.

    BTW, don't think the young kids won't cheat. I played a team tournament (randomly paired) the past weekend, and my partner was maybe 12. He was constantly looking at the top few cards of his deck, until I out and out told him not to. And I know when I first started playing (maybe 12-13), we all cheated constantly (though that's over, now). If you have the slightest suspicion that something is going on, you might be right. Call the judge.

    Finally, offering him your cards was (excuse me) just dumb. You did nothing wrong; he has to be responsible for his mistakes. When you offer him cards, you aren't exactly encouraging him to go learn the rules and figure it out.
  19. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Look, you wanted to win so you ruleslawyered and screwed him out.
    Whats the problem - you were allowed to do it.

    Personally I dont think it was a nice thing to do, but you obviously really wanted to win.
  20. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I think he explained in his post why he did it, rather than "wanting to win"

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