Paradoxes

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by DÛke, Nov 17, 2000.

  1. Hawaiian mage CPA symbiod

    He ment with other religions here.

    And I guess he's right about the polotics thing. I jusst get pissed whenever I hear someone actually WANTS bush in the white house. I mean, my god! He admittidly said he was going to go in to our oil reserves and use them up. And he claims he's going to increase education, and at the same time increase social securety, AND still be able to invest in education. REPUBLICANS SUCK!
  2. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    nodnarb said:
    Of course I am aware of this. In fact, it's common to most world religions.
    What I meant was that I don't believe that it happened the way those stories say it did.

    Picking the Pentateuch / Old Testament version as an example:
    I don't believe the entire world was submerged.
    I don't believe that, even if it was, it could have been done in forty days (and yes, I understand that "forty days" is a weak translation of an idiom which means "a long time") or even within the liftime of a human being.
    I absolutely refuse to even humor the notion that there were two to seven representatives of every animal species on the planet (well, the ones god deemed worthy, anyway) on a gigantic boat that was capable of remaining afloat during a protracted rainstorm, for any length of time, much less for "forty days."

    What really happened was probably a catastrophic flood, caused when a natural dam of sorts that was regulating the flow of a river from high elevation into a valley or lowland, suddenly broke allowing the pent-uo waters to rush down and drown the animals and people there. (There is archaeological and geological evidence that this very thing happened.)
    Naturally, early peoples were inclined to attribute such disasters to mystical cosmic forces, "obviously" punishing all those unfortunates for their transgressions.
    The story has since been twisted to suit the needs of whatever cultures and religions have picked it up since then.

    Hawaiian Mage postulates:
    (Pardon my sarcasm....)
    As I am quite certain that this computer on my desk is an amazing coincidence. One day, decades ago, a bit of glass fashioned itself into a vacuum tube and bam! now look what's happened.

    No, I feel quite certainly that life - and the universe - is a result of intentional design, following a set of laws that we are only beginning to understand scientifically.
    I'm not saying that the human form was the ultimate goal. (Remember I don't believe that "god" has "goals" in any sense that we could relate to.) I only mean that we are part of an ongoing sequence of events whose end result may or may not be known by the entity that set it in motion.

    For the record (in case you're wondering) I believe that the entity in question does "know" the end result, since it would neccessarily exist simultaneously in all points of space-time (by my model, that is).

    ...

    I'm interested in knowing what you think of that.

    (edited to fix mistyped vB tag)

    [Edited by Chaos Turtle on 11-19-00 at 04:20 AM]
  3. Hawaiian mage CPA symbiod

    Blue algea is not a very complicated life form. It is very possible to have been created acidentally with all the cosmic forces comeing into play.

    It's at least as possible as a supream entity who just happened to all ready be there.
  4. Firestorm Veteran CPA Member

    blind seer.
  5. dw51688 The Mad Scientist

    Okay. God to me is those who are older and a good example ;) (especially you DUke ;););))
  6. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Hawaiian Mage:
    [QUOTEBlue algea is not a very complicated life form. It is very possible to have been created acidentally with all the cosmic forces comeing into play.[/QUOTE]

    Understood.
    But you said (emphasis mine):
    We, of course, are not blue-green algae (or cyanobacteria). The mutations involved in evolution into multi-celled organisms, then plants, fish, rodents, and primates (to name a few) are - while generally slow in coming - quite dramatic. Mysterious, you might say.

    The rise to sentience is particularly intriguing, as we humans seem to have stepped outside of evolution altogether (meaning that we adapt our environment, rather than adapting to it).

    This suggests to me that there is purpose, perhaps even intention, involved.

    What is that purpose?
    I don't know. I choose to not live my life worrying about it.

    Let me give a simple analogy.
    Suppose you want to make a cake from scratch. Must you not start somewhere? Do you walk into the kitchen and say, "Let there be cake!"?
    No, of course not. You need ingredients; flour, eggs, baking powder, maybe some milk and cocoa. You need some untensils and a bowl or two. You need to pre-heat the oven.

    Now imagine "god" wants to make something as well (we might even arrogantly assume that it's us "god" wishes to make).

    There are a few laws fashioned, involving chemistry, gravity, magnetism, quantum mechanics...

    Starting with some elementary particles, these laws can describe how hydrogen is formed, and how hydrogen can be fused to make helium, and so on...
    They also regulate the processes by which those elements join together to make more complex structures like water.

    In time, we have carbon and water getting together along with some amino acids, the right temperature and amount of light, and... algae.

    Do you expect me to believe this just "happened?"

    ...

    I want to reinforce my notion of "god" too, to clear up the notion that I perceive a "supreme being" that makes things like blue-green algae on a cosmic whim.

    Remember that in my view the entity responsible for the universe isn't in the universe, it is the universe.

    It would take a long time to clarify and debate this, so I'll wrap it up here and reiterate my invitation to anyone who'd like to share her or his ideas with me -- and vice-versa -- to contact me via email or catch me on ICQ (good luck on that one).

    ...

    And remember, I'm not telling what to believe, only what I believe.*

    *(note: Chaos Turtle's beliefs are subject to change, void where prohibited, and have no cash value) ;)
  7. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...choose not to listen to what Chaos Turtle said (I'm sorry!):
    I simply can’t comprehend that. You people changed this thing into an evolutionary process mythology. I guess that's ok. It doesn't matter to me how or when we were created; not at all. What (used to) matter is why? I mean, why do we have to live? Is there a chance that death is not the end of life? I think so. We still don't know if death is the end point of life; we never had a dead person revive, that's why.

    I don't believe in God, unless it can be proven. I don't have to see a logical prove to believe, I need a prove; any prove.

    Why would God be somewhere, and then he'd be commanding us to do stuff? Why would one do it? Why would one take commands from something that has never been proven to exist before? It's funny.

    I don't go to churches, I don't prey, and I eat all the pork I want to eat (although it is "forbidden" for the Muslims). Why would I obey rules of an illusionary OBJECT? Don't make me laugh.

    God, if you exist, and if you want MY attention, prove your existence, and then, I’ll consider if I should obey you, or not…
  8. K9Archmage He Might Be Giants

    I agree with duke. It is utterly and udderly (MOOOO) senseless to believe in something that hasn't been proven. here is how it all started:

    Man1: Hmm. Man2, do you know how that rock was created?

    Man2: I don't know. I guess that there is a guy who made it. He probably made everything else that we can't explain.I know! I think that i will spread this rumor so that everybody can waste an hour of their weekend to worship this man.

    Man1: Good idea. Lets make up a story to go along with it

    Thus, the bible was created.
  9. Cateran Emperor Passed On

    Yep, I believe in God. I see no reason not to, and the idea makes sense, so why not?

    K9, I find the argument that His existence isn't proven to be little reason to not believe, but I'm not going to bother anyone on it. Quite honestly, I see no evidence that atoms exist except for the proof that science gives us, so why should I believe in them? I can't see them, touch them, hear them, or in any way perceive them, but people believe in them based on a whole bunch of incomprehensible numbers. How is this different? To me it is not. Think about that.

    DUke, as for what God wants, I honestly don't care. The methods I've learned to do things are the same that I use anyway, which further reinforces the idea that it must be right. I think He's male because an all powerful entity being male makes more sense to me. I honestly don't care if that sounds sexist (and I know some of you are going to accuse me of that), that's merely the way I am.

    Flame away, my skin's too thick to be scratched. I've said my schtick and I'm not returning to this thread. I hate it when this sort of thing hits the CPA.
  10. arachiron New Member

    yay chaos!

    This universe which our teeny human minds are not evolved to comprehend fully is incredibly lonely, confusing, and immensely complex. We need explanations that give us some kind of anchor or basis to live our lives. Sure we do have inklings: the Big Bang theory, formation of elements such as helium to iron in stars, random molecules combining in a primordial soup to emerge as our definition of "life", evolution, and er, whatever else that's out there.

    I personally don't believe in a diety that the various sects of christians, moslems, jews, hindus, and others have devoted their faith to. Define God. It is intrinsically different for each induvidual don't ya think?

    But, I believe that faith in general is a good thing. I've found religion holds people together and gives them leverage to make sense out of their lives. However, I think it is best to formulate your own opinions and reach some kind of conclusion without the baggage of society or culture you've been immersed with. I don't believe religion is sacred and it would be a bad idea to carry it to an extreme where it interferes with reason. (I can't believe they wont allow evolution in some syllibi, yuck!)

    I agree on some parts of all of the religions stated above, yet science and philosophy is the way I try to comprehend my life. (I could be "called" Buddist: long er longer story)

    So, even though I've rambled quite extensively, I haven't actually answered your question. :)
  11. theorgg Slob

    To quote the most inopprotune band at this time:

    -Devo

    Anyone seen Dogma or read Good Omens?
    hmmm...

    Honestly, I believe in God. I can not accept the fact that a great cosmic fart happened in the middle of nothing and all was.

    SOMTHING had to be guiding it.
  12. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...with you Orgg, but why would anyone obey the rules of this SOMETHING? We don't know for a fact what is up there; and we probably never will.

    I agree that SOMETHING out there must have started all this, and started for a reason, not by accident; what is the reason? Why? Who is this thing? I don't know, and I'm becoming less care-ful for this stuff, since the more I try to as even think about it, the more it makes me want to break out with tears...from laughter...
  13. Hawaiian mage CPA symbiod

    The main reason I don't beleive in god...


    Where did god come from?
  14. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    "God" did not come from anywhere. It simply is everything, everywhere, everywhen.

    "God" and the Universe are synonymous.

    The attempt to make "god" adhere to our rules -- our understanding -- of existence, is futile.

    You and I are not separate from "god." We are all merely aspects of "god." The world we see every day is a manifestation of "god."
  15. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...you have great ideas and theories about God's existance, and I like to think that God is everywhere and everything around us, not just an something, somewhere.

    Ok, I will no let myself go, and start a fight, but I really want to know why you believe what you believe Chaos, I like your ideas, and I want to know where you got them from. Is it just self-reflection, or are they obtained ideas? I just want to know? Would an email about this be better?
  16. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Did I miss something in the original post or was this thread just titled wrong? It seems this is a discussion about the existance of God; no paradox was mentioned (initially).
  17. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...I was going to relate some worldly paradoxes into this God thing, but there's just so much that people have said; and many made good points, so why interrupt that?
  18. K9Archmage He Might Be Giants

    Hey! It's all in my signature people!
    TEchnically, if we are all people, then wouldn't we be the same person? Then again, we would also be different, but if we were the same person and a different person at the same time, then we would either be a lot of people with one mind, or we would be one person with many minds. We all know that we are neither, but it is possible that is what the thing controlling us wants us to think. Is it possible that God is just controlling our minds? If he was, then how come some people don't believe in God. That rules out that theory.

    Anyways, i think that this is a real crappy subject to begin with. We shouldn't be arguing with each other about our personal beliefs. It's like calling someone stupid cause they like cheese. The worst thing to talk to a friend about is religion and possibly politics.
  19. Darsh Corrupt CPA Member

    We started out talking about paradox's, then religion, and now we are talking about not talking about paradox's...now THATS a paradox.:)
  20. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    The ideas are mine in the sense that I have come to believe them on my own, but they are a combination of self-study, directed study, personal reflection, and philosophical theorizing.

    It's the result of a journey almost as long as my life story.

    Far too much to detail in this forum, not that I mind sharing it. Email me if you like, and I'll try fill you in as much as I can.

    One of these days, I'll write the whole thing down before I start to forget it. ;)

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