One word: Pathetic...

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by DÛke, Apr 13, 2001.

  1. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    There is no need to be nasty. If you were "over it," as you say, then there's no reason for you to take the comment personally, particularly since I was quoting rakso in my post (though it was not directed solely at him). Most people who are "over it" don't keep complaining, but there's no question that you are not like most people.

    Just the same, I don't know if I can offer rakso any useful advice for his problem of being trod-upon by the pros and pro-wannabes in his country. I myself post occasioally to a newsgroup dominated by pros in this country, and I often feel out of my league when it comes to keeping up with some of the intensely technical discussions that go there (I'm talking about MTG-L, btw).

    Now, unlike the response you've described, rakso, I've never felt excluded or dismissed out-of-hand, so I really can't claim to see where you're coming from.

    There seem to be two good ways to handle this. One, keep on posting. Just because you get ignored or even ostracized doesn't mean you can't post to that newsgroup. As long as you have access to it, you have a right to post there. Who cares if no one there likes what you have to say? Two, ignore them. If the response makes you so uncomfortable, post someplace else.
    As for the way you're treated by people in person, at the mall shop...again, unless there's some organized harassment going on, I don't see the problem. If there is, complain to the manager of the store. If he or she values your business, (s)he'll put a stop to it. If not, then take your business elsewhere. (Aside: If there simply is no other place to play, I sympathize, really. I know how it is. But, I have played with groups of the "we hate scrubs" mentality and of the "We're here for the game" mentality, and I simply choose not to associate with (to put it bluntly) a**holes.)

    In short, it's only your problem if you let it be.

    Not that I see what any of these things has to do with the articles that were posted here last week, and I stand by my assertion that, even if there was a tone of seriousness to the humor pieces, there was never anything to get so worked up about. In fact, if there is anyone who had any right to feel hurt, it is the people over at CCGPrime, who were the ones being mocked in the first place, as far as I can tell.
  2. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...
    I'm glad that after all these days, you finally managed to see the light and realize that, in fact, I'm not like all other people. Thank you so much.

    Rasko, I understand your situation clearly. I sometimes go through the same things. If you like what you're doin', than keep on doing it. There's no superiority, no matter how much others imply that there is. Judging from your posts and articles, I think you're great...and that's the best reason you could have to continue...
  3. rakso New Member

    Thanks, guys. :)

    Chaos Turtle, it's not as big a problem as it seems, but I'd like to put it into context. See, there can't be more than perhaps 300 active tourney players in the country, and not much more casual players who don't go to tourneys but have a good grasp of the game.

    So no matter how much you don't really see these people, it still disturbs you without seriously hurting you that these people don't seem to give a damn. It's not like the US or even other countries where a lot more people seem to be playing.

    So see the irony.

    I can write an article anytime to CPA, Meridian or Star City, and I can be assured that it will be printed. A STRATEGY article.

    I correspond with the Pros that my countrymen dream of beating and use as excuses to cajole themselves into more playesting. Hell, I MODERATE an e-group of Pros (check out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/badmagictech).

    I moderate the busiest, most content-filled Magic forum in the world (let's put CPA and Beyond Dominia on top, if there are no complaints), and the all-volunteer site is placed second only to sites like Mindripper, Star City and Sideboard on Alex Shvartsman's magic list of Meridian links.

    And so on.

    So while I've never really played in a Pro Tour Qualifier, I feel very much a part of the Magic Community.

    EXCEPT in my own country.

    Yet, if there's any player who's put the Philippines on the map, who else would it be, false humility aside? Since we've never produced an APAC or World Champion before, well, I think those primers and that Meridian Deathmatch thing count for something.

    Weird, huh?

    (If you want to check it out, try http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dci-philippines)
  4. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    SO DO IT!

    You know, I believe you can write serious strategy articles. I've seen your comments and decklists, you're easily smart enough. Why don't you?

    If your skill in playing is anything like your deckbuilding, and the "pros" you are up against are not, in fact, the strongest players, why don't you go and try and win some tournaments?

    And then go back to them, if you're of the vindictive sort (I know I am)

    Go back in with your "featured writer" status at starcity and your qualification for the pro tour, and get into one of their games and play....

    A thallid deck? Replenish? I don't care, really. But if you feel like you have something to prove, and have the means to prove it, please do! We can use all the help we can get. Go on, blur the lines between pro and casual. Please, do! It's about time someone took over where Wakefield left off! Rizzo only goes so far (sometimes too far, mind you).

    Come on, do it! If you're upset about how "pros" treat you, then change it! You claim to be able to, so do it! Or, if you decide you would rather not, then please don't complain when the same behavior goes on. I'd much rather see you show them what you can do. Go ahead, make my day :).
  5. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Apparently this was the "controversial" thread that always happens over the weekend so I miss it...

    well, to throw my 6 bits in, even though the main reason why this thread was started seems to be over, I thought Sol's article was kinda serious, but I've never read anything by him or know much of him so I didn't know what to think. I certainly haven't participated in the Writer's War and wasn't going to start doing it then, but if it "persuaded" other people to vote, I don't see what was wrong with that.

    Ferrett and Vasca's articles though, were clearly marked as being funny/satirical/whatever. I even said it in the introduction! "Read these with tongue-in-cheek" Geez... I hate to be totally offensive, but it seems no matter how obvious you spell things out or disclaim stuff, some people will always take offense at those same things. It's the same kind of people who write in to Dave Barry and who's been reading him for years when it's clear he's writing a humor column. I just gotta shake my head...

    (DUke, this is not really aimed at you although you started this thread, just the type of people above described).

    Onto the bigger picture, I don't know what to say about rakso's predicament. I would also venture to say that there probably is a "holier-than-thou" attitude from pros towards casuals, especially if they don't "know" each other (although that shouldn't matter), but I don't frequent other boards so I really can't say anything about that either. It all goes back to the discussions people periodically put up about pros and casuals. Me, I wouldn't worry much about it. It might be nice to solicit well-known names or their opinions on a deck, but if I ever got back into Magic seriously, I feel happy with the resources I have here at the CPA.
  6. FrigginRizzo New Member

    First of all, the idea that any player can be classified as "casual" is a friggin' joke. That Sol Malka thought he could gain favor with the "casual" players by listing the reasons that he is "casual" is yet another joke.

    Secondly, tongue-in-cheek or no, anytime someone tries to pander to a certain group by pretending to be "one of the boys" everyone should vomit. Since casual vs. tourney player is a bunch of crap anyway, why anyone would give any credence at all to such patronizing is beyond me. Oh, Sol made a lot of Top Eights, but he never won one; that's what makes him "casual;" see, he's just like everyone on the CPA - lovable losers.

    Vasco was just playing (as he does quite often), but Sol wasn't. If he was, would he have tried to buy the "casual" vote? Would he have tried to buy the "tournament" vote over on New Wave? Would he have written an article (the first in months by the way) and sent it to New Wave? And of all the sites to send an article, who the hell even considers New Wave a real site?

    Still, the Writer War is supposed to be nothing but fun, so everyone should either be offended or not. Offended because Sol insulted everyone (especially his editor, and one of the hardest working dudes in the online community, The Ferrett), and not offended because the War really means nothing at all; amazing that Sol is taking it so seriously. Considering he never should've made it out of the first round, let's just throw our hands in the air and have a good laugh at all of this, because at the end of the day it really doesn't matter. At all.

    John Friggin' Rizzo
  7. rakso New Member

    Duel... I'm afraid I don't think you really understood my point.

    I'll be honest: I really don't care much for tourneys, except that they're the easiest places to find people to play with.

    Tourneys here easily consume your entire Saturday, well into the night. Well... people have lives, too, you know, and giving up half a weekend is really a tall order. Especially for me; I have loads of other things to do and I was double-majoring in my university's two toughest courses.

    But I think what I wanted to drive home was the fact that we're all playing the same game here. What? So I HAVE to win a Pro Tour and I HAVE to write a book on Magic BEFORE I can converse with other players about a hobby I enjoy?

    HUH?!?!

    That, I believe, was my point.

    Let's use Rizzo as an innocent victim. We all enjoy his "issues" and we don't associate his writing with strategy. No offense to him, of course, and he's a valuable part of this online community.

    Now, what if Rizzo posted a question on a website, and proclaimed that Goblin Game was better than, say, Ancestral Recall, and Duel (who had just won ten Pro Tours in one week) told him no?

    We'd understand if Duel politely commented using strategy (say, card advantage and mana cost) as his basis. But what if he simply said, "I won ten Pro Tours. You're wrong and I'm right."?

    My point is that the latter situation seems to be what I encounter. And from people who haven't even reached the money in a Pro Tour.

    I don't care to win a Pro Tour, and I don't care to write a book. I'm happy enough chatting with people like you guys, and I'm not going to spend my time on some grand crusade to get the Philippine players to lighten up.

    But my point is: Why do I even have to consider such a crusade?


    To illustrate, here's a recent post from the Philippine e-group:

    "i guess with your performance at apac same goes with gerald's... and the fact that aside from japanese players we still can win our grand prix's and maybe someday the apac, i can say we are better than HK, Malaysians and others but not yet (emphasis on yet) better than Singapore, Australia, and Japan. Plus from World's and Pro tours i guess our overall performance against mexico is better right? The point is that thinking we are better than these guys would really boost our confidence since i think that is all we lack. accepting the fact that the mexicans are better than us and admitting it at this e-groups would lead to some not so innovative and unchallenged filipino mtg players to just copy mexican nationals decks, same philosophy as to why US & Japan netdecks are being copied and used by most filipino mtg players is accepting the fact that the players from these countries are better than us, leading us to just copy their decks. Accepting and believing that we are better players would challenge us to make better decks than what these countries have and i for one believe that we can make and use decks that would be of filipino origin and someday use these decks to win apac and maybe the worlds (see how respected japanese players are because of their deckbuilding skills and i think that arises from the fact that japanese have great pride and belief in their skills, and i think they have never accepted that US players are better than them that's why they still keep on working to be world champs). I hope this helps in building the confidence of filipino mtg players to believe in themselves that they are better and thus could make original decks that are tourney viable."

    From someone who doesn't immerse himself in tourneys, you wonder if this sounds like the mantra of scrubs and aspiring rogues worldwide. It's good, isn't it? Sounds wonderful.

    And yet, these are the same people who get annoyed if you dare to ask them via e-mail about why certain cards are in their decks, then debate or try to clarify when the answer seems vague or seems like a "gut feel" choice.

    I don't want to call it a "holier than thou" thing, but some people sometimes just expect non-tourney players to ask nothing but newbie questions yet somehow take offense when they don't.
  8. rakso New Member

    But this is in no way some kind of pro vs casual debate.

    Hell, no.

    A simple example would be this little mailing list I'm somehow part of. We have pros from New York (the Neutral Ground bunch) talking about how to use Python and other light stuff.

    Heck, Urza's Mistress just joined the list, and she's in no way a noted "pro".

    And these people gladly explain to me why they think a certain card is good or a certain card is bad. They gladly answer my points if I dissent.

    Here in the Philippines, I've pooh-poohed some of the hyped cards.

    I told them I didn't believe Planar Portal would be good, then told them not to buy Orim's Chant and Doomsday Specter when these were hot.

    I think I've been quite right so far, and these "pros" who aren't even pros seem to resent it unbelievably. Especially, perhaps, the guys who replied in public, "I know Type II is not as fast as Type I, but Doomsday Specter is obviously amazing in Type II, so why don't you play Type II so you'll figure it out?"

    And yet, when I talk to "real pros", they seem similar enough to your fellow human beings about it.
  9. Vasco_da_Gama Hack for Hire

    Sorry, Duke and others, if my satire was a bit harsh.

    My goal was only to lampoon Sol's article. If I used 'casual' stereotypes, it was only in attempt to mimic and magnify what Sol was doing. I keep flopping as to whether Sol's was a joke or not. Sol's joke is that the entire bit was completely out of character and that a pro campaigning for casual votes is a preposterous idea. But on the other hand, there's that New Wave thing, and the fact that it seems to have worked. So maybe the joke is that>

    I have long since given up hope that everyone will get my jokes, I just try and keep the repercussions into 'acceptable flames' range ;)

    Of course, I am the fellow who managed to slightly offend Aaron Forsythe in my first correspondence with him due to a poorly crafted pun. Comedy is a dangerous pursuit ;)

    Cheers
    Da Gama
  10. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...with Mr. Rizzo.

    Why do you guys think I didn't even MENTION Ferrett's article? I laughed at it all through...THAT was funny. His humor just shines throughout every word, and every expression. It was enjoyable, actually. :)

    Vasco's, on the other hand, I laughed with in the beginning, and then my grin seemed to fade. I completely understand why anyone may think I'm a fool for thinkin' that Vasco's article is offensive. It may be just my problem. I could see the unseen humor in Vasco.

    ...but Sol? Nope...that one was just out of hand. It exceeded all limits of self-diginity. I laughed, and then was so angry...as to where Vasco's article left me just silent (not mad.) If he's such a respectible writer [Sol], he wouldn't have done all that. You didn't see Rizzo do it, now did you?

    [Chaos Turtle - I'm not complaining, I'm just talking. :)]
    [Spiderman - I'll make sure I'll save my controversial comments for weekdays. :)]

    Rasko, I understand what you're saying. Some Pro players just think they're better because they're called "Pro", and not anything else...say "casual". They feel superior to others, and therefore, have a "complex" attitude. I understand...if you enjoy the CPA, like you said, then just hang here. We like your writing, we discuss the things you like, and we're your friends. Unless you wanna try and change the things around, all I could say is...be yourself where you're wanted. :)
  11. rakso New Member

    Thanks. :)

    To end... it's just funny when you feel more at home on the Net than in real life tournaments in your home city, with no offense to you guys. :)
  12. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Understood, friend. Understood. ;)
  13. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    I agree. I see your point about Sol's article, after reading the ones on new wave and a couple of conversations.
    (Whoa! Did we all just reach an agreement? This is unprecedented)

    And Rakso, it's less depressing than it sounds. Happens to me every day.
  14. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...Duel...something to remember, and to be proud of.

    Rakso, listen to what Duel said. It IS less depressing. All in all, friend, you'll always have us. :)
  15. TeamRegime.com I AM, THAT I AM. - GOD

    Who cares. I mean really. If your offended by the comments of the pros/writers then it seems you are the one that has a "complex" about your own security and place in Magic. I KNOW my place and am 100% secure in it. I was not offended by eithier ones comments and pleas, to each his own is my motto and the other is the GOLDEN RULE...these Pros wouldnt even have an audience without us non-pros, they simply wouldnt exsist. They may not admit it but deep down in that metagamed heart they know this.

    Think about it. If WE (I say this rather liberally) did NOT buy the cards, attend the Pre-Releases, go to the Grand Prix and PTQs WOTC and the Pros would simply ceast to exsist. They actually need us more than we them. One has to see past the genre of PRO and see this person as...a person who like you, plays Magic. Your always going to have the cocky Pro out there, and they've quasi' earned that right. I think if you can talk the talk AND walk the walk, your going to get my respect, and many others.

    A cross-over example is this website. Theyre are VETERAN posters and theyre are doods/gallies like me with posts are under 50...we are automatically categorized into the respectless range. Similiarly theyre are Pros and NON Pros..with a third category called Casual (Again I HATE that word.)...The veterans will always get the respect here on CPA versus the Newbies...why? Respect. They have history and make decent rebuttles and follow up with a point. I've seen quite a few verterans going after eachother but no newbie going after a veteran (if theyre are I missed it) The newbies (not all) are afraid of getting roasted..The flip side is the same for Pros....social groups.

    I voted for both Sol and John Rizzo and even posted a plea for both of them on my site. I didnt have to but I have a deeply rooted respect for people who hang it on the line, people who will challenge the status quo and don't care if its NOT PCorrect.

    CPA is the premiere place for Magic players to voice their opinion..hands down. As with the other posts on here, I respect all of them. But, who cares...your life is not going to change because of this, the writers war will be forgotten in a month or two and CPA will still be here.

    The Pandering of the writers came from the idea that there is an untapped resource of supporters (you peeps are unbelievably loyal- almost to a fault)..they know this, they need you. I did my part but in no way would I or will I be offended by someone , anyone asking for a little help. ---NOTE-- I know this post is full of cliches sorry.--

    Nicholas Knight
    www.teamregime.com
  16. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I don't quite understand this paragraph.

    I hope we try to avoid the "respectless" phase. All "veteran" means is you have over 30 posts. That's it. There's people under 30 who post "intelligently" and people over 400 who don't (numbers are pulled out of a hat).

    If newbies have decent rebuttles and follow up with a point, I don't see why they won't get respect.
  17. TeamRegime.com I AM, THAT I AM. - GOD

    Sorry web head, sometimes I start to ramble on not making much sense to anyone BUT myself...

    Lemme try and explain.

    The crossover is that pros are respected BY pros and worshippers of being a pro.

    Veteran Writers are supported by veteran writers (posters)...

    You hardly see "non" pro people attacking a pro players because they would most likely be ignored...and the equal side - Veteran posters will pretty much ignore newbies becuase they can easily rack it up as nonsense.

    The above statement (PC Preface) is not stereotyping, but rather, generalizing.

    Confused?

    Side Note- Are they still filming the SPIDERMAN movie? I heard someone stole ALL the Spiderman costumes (over 50,000$ worth)...(was it you?)

    Nicholas Knight
    www.teamregime.com
  18. rakso New Member

    Oh' I Love Trash! Oscar. --> And what the heck does THIS mean???

    I think this is generally true, unless your "veteran" or "pro" is narrow-minded about it.

    The reverse does happen. I forwarded a strategy note from Darwin Kastle once, and it was pretty much ignored by the population of Beyond Dominia. They said the PRO didn't know how to play Type I. :)

    I've never really seen this happen on CPA, though. At worst, your "veteran" repeats his position to your "newbie" and if "newbie" explains further, we have what you call a discussion.

    Where'd this Marxist theory of online forums come from, anyway?
  19. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    TeamRegime: Okay, I got it. It was just originally in your paragraph you started out saying "take this website" so it seemed the rest of it applied to the CPA, which I wasn't really seeing and wondering if others did.


    I haven't really heard anything about the Spiderman movie nor the thefts :(
  20. TeamRegime.com I AM, THAT I AM. - GOD

    Theres a show on PBS thats called....hmmmm..oh yeah "Sesame Street" theres a puppet charcter called "Oscar the Grouch" who sings his own personal anthem..the title of the song is "I LOVE TRASH"...nevermind..maybe Im too old. (29)

    Marxsist? (Do you even know the MEANING of such a word?)

    Hmm....ok.

    Actually Im a Liberal...slowly becoming a conservative in my latter years.

    Nicholas Knight
    www.teamregime.com

Share This Page