Obama thinks babies are punishment!

Killer Joe

New member
I happend to BE a second hand smoker (not kidding). However, more and more of my friends are quitting so I'm "jones-ing" all the time for someone to light up. :eek:

Pittsburgh has a bann on smoking in bars and a recent tax hike in alcohol sales at bars.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
It still affects me though and not by my choice (in "public" situations, not things like entering a restaurant).

Although if owners had the guts to declare their businesses smoke-free, smokers would complain that there aren't any places for them to go to.
 

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
Spiderman said:
It still affects me though and not by my choice (in "public" situations, not things like entering a restaurant).

Although if owners had the guts to declare their businesses smoke-free, smokers would complain that there aren't any places for them to go to.
Do you breath while standing next to idling cars and busses? That is definitely bad for you..... work places should be smoke free, but have a place for smokers to go and not just outside away from the building...... I live next to bar and if they ban smoking in the bar (also 15 feet from the entrance) those people will stand on my porch and in my yard..... I will be moving soon..

Here is the thing.... most bars would keep smoking, since they would make more money..... but the non-smokers could still find a few places that ban it, but nooooooo.... they just complain that they are being deprived of their right to sit their fat butts anywhere they like........ I hate smoking Nazi's....
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Actually, I try NOT to breathe next to idling cars/buses. Not placed in that situation very often as I'm out in the suburbs and not walking a lot where it's congested...

Smokers should have a place to go, but the problem is the same that restaurants with supposed enclosed places had... the smoke still seeps out or gets in the ventilation system.

Do bars make more money with non-smokers? I remember reading that it was a concern when NY went with the smokers ban inside bars, but a couple of years later, it seems the bars are still operating and making money...
 

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
Spiderman said:
Do bars make more money with non-smokers? I remember reading that it was a concern when NY went with the smokers ban inside bars, but a couple of years later, it seems the bars are still operating and making money...
And I'll bet that most of them are ignoring the ban on smoking..... A lot of the bar owners in the Burgh have said they would ignore it as much as possible......

So walking past a smoker is worse than walking past an idling car or bus?????

I sometimes have a reaction to purfume, where it is hard to not stop sneezing and my eyes from watering...... do I want perfume banned from the world......

Yes smoking is bad for you..... but this banning stuff has gone too far in denying some simple rules of civility.....

What about that "no-fat" ban in NY restaurants???
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Walking past is probably not that big of a deal. But I thought we were talking about occasions where the non-smoker is taking in a large amount of smoke; i.e. restaurants/bars.

I'm actually the same with perfume, but so far that doesn't harm you :)

No-fat ban *is* swinging too far on the pendulum...
 
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EricBess

Guest
DarthFerret said:
Ok, maybe I just like to get things a little riled up, however I found this slip of the tongue to be most hillary-ous.

Senator Obama stated in a press spot recently that he wants to raise his daughters with good morales and values, and yet "if one of them makes a mistake, I do not want her to be punished with a baby". This was in reference to his stance on abortion. Not trying to take this out of context.

Discuss...
Here's my issue. I understand his point because having a child is a huge responsibility and incredibly life-altering. The fact that he calls it "punished" is a slip of the tonge, but is understood.

My problem, however, is the underlying attitude. An argument of "they aren't ready to be parents and a child raised by them would have problems" I can understand, whether I agree with it or not. But he is basically saying that they shouldn't be accountable for their actions because that's too much of a price to pay. What about the student who gets drunk and kills a guy on his way home? Isn't that a mistake also? Should that person be punished? Or should we let them off without consequenses also? While were at it, why should any action have consequences? It's just so unfair and life shouldn't be that way....

Sorry, but I don't buy it. That's a crap excuse for a pro-choice argument. You don't want a baby? Then protect yourself and realize that the possibility exists. Or, heaven forbid, obstain and your protection level goes up dramatically.

As for smoking, I think it is definitely the case that second hand smoke is more dangerous than not being exposed to second hand smoke...I've had a number of friends who are smokers and they are, in general, very courteous towards people who don't smoke. As long as that attitude persists, I don't have a problem, though I may occassionally give them a bit of a hard time about it (in a friendly manner).
 
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DarthFerret

Guest
Lol....funny you guys mentioned perfume. I had a friend (back in Missouri) that could and did have violent Athsmatic reactions whenever he got a whiff of a certain type of perfume (musk?....not sure....do not wear the stuff myslef). He kept an inhaler with him at all times because of this condition. So, could he start a "no perfume" ban because it does cause a significant risk to his health?

Here is one last thing I think is really funny about smoking. Everyone (and I do believe that is pretty much a fact) knows that it is not good for your health. And yet, there are those of us that still do it.

Smoking is not a healthy activity, and I will admit to being aware that it increases your risk of getting cancer (not causing, just risk increase). But so do a lot of other things that we do in our daily lives. If my smoke bothers you, then ask me to either a) put it out or b) take it elsewhere. As long as you are being nice and polite, I am likely to respect you and yours. I do not smoke in my own home (it stinks it up and turns the walls yellow), I always put butts where they belong (even have a coffee can set up outside for my butts), and I try to never blow smoke in the face of another person. Is that not enough? If not, what else can I do? Oh, wait, let me guess....quit. Yeah, ever tried to quit something this addictive? And there is a new study realeased today (I think) that links a certain gene to smoking and its addiction. Not sure how true it is, but think about that. I will quit smoking when the average weight of an American is within 25 lbs of his/her ideal weight. How is that for fair?
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I do not smoke in my own home...
That's actually kind of funny :D

And yet, there are those of us that still do it.
Oh yeah, I agree. And there's lots of things that are bad for you that people still do (drugs, food with trans fat, as two). However, most don't have quite the direct effect on others, although it eventually affects us in all ways (crime, higher health costs)
 
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EricBess

Guest
Ug...perfume. If a smoker blows smoke directly in your face, then smoke may be worse, but someone with perfume in the near vicinity is hard to avoid...

Personally, I'm not allergic in the sense that I break into hives and need a pen of epi, but I've known people that are and I personally get short of breath around it. Strong perfume is very discourteous people. Please stop.
 

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
EricBess said:
Personally, I'm not allergic in the sense that I break into hives and need a pen of epi, but I've known people that are and I personally get short of breath around it. Strong perfume is very discourteous people. Please stop.
So, you are insulting the french people..... no no, just joking about their perfume habits.......

Obesity is one of the biggest causes of preventable health problems in the world, but don't tell people they can't have their Whoppers, Big Macs, fries and the high carb/sugar/fat diets...... we just keep paying for their health care....


BTW - I have cut down to 1/2 pack per day and if I can figure out how to smoke less at home, I'd be down to 4 or 5 per day.... this is from a 30+ year smoker..... and I walk every other day about 1 to 2 miles with some jogging in there (I only jog uphill, wierd huh).
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
If only health care companies can isolate such "demographics" and keep any increases to them, but then, that's probably discriminatory...

Congrats Mooseman... my mother-in-law smoked at least 1-2 packs a day and she quit basically cold turkey 'cause she's living with us and we said there's no way we're having smoke around our kids... not sure how she did it like that but she did...
 

turgy22

Nothing Special
Chiming in on the whole abortion debate:

Personally, I hate the fact that an issue as complicated as abortion basically gets divided up into two categories: Pro-Choice or Pro-Life. Pro-Choice people say that it's a woman's right to choose what she does with her body, failing to mention that there is a living, feeling being inside her that doesn't get much say in the choice. Pro-Life people say abortion is wrong and it should be outlawed, without accounting for what would inevitably happen if there was no abortion (overpopulation and riskier illegal procedures.)

There are a lot of shades of grey in between there that nobody cares to address. For the most part, I agree with the Pro-Life side. An unborn baby is still a living, feeling human being. When does it reach that state? I'm not sure, but I don't see how you can say that a baby born 2 months premature is alive and has rights, but a baby inside a woman who is 8 months pregnant is not alive and lacks those rights, despite the fact that it is more developed and functional than the former. So let's just say that using that logic, I am vehemently against late-term abortions.

But that doesn't mean that a federal abortion ban is the answer. The biggest problem with the "Pro-Choice" moniker is that abortion is rarely a choice. Women don't use abortion as their primary method of birth control. It's far more dangerous than any other form of birth control. Women get abortions because they do NOT have a choice. They're either too young, lack the income to support a child or lack health insurance to get the proper medical care. Most women are pressured by either their parents or the father into getting abortions. That's really not much of a choice.

So what is the solution? Instead of attacking the problem (abortions), attack the source of the problem. How many less abortions would there be each year if we had a national health care plan, such that every woman knew the full cost of her pregnancy and delivery would be covered? How many less abortions would there be if every woman had better access to birth control? How many less abortions would there be if everyone had a job? Statistics have shown that as insurance coverage and job rates decline, abortions go up.

Sex education is also important, but mostly for the information on proper use of birth control and prevention of STDs. Abstinence education is worthless. I went to Catholic school. We had abstinence education drilled in our heads from the moment we hit puberty. And yet half a dozen girls in my class got pregnant before graduating. Don't think those were the only ones having sex. Kids are stupid. They're going to fool around no matter what you tell them or how illogical it might be. That's the same reason people smoke. No one (except, perhaps those in prison or the military) decides to pick up smoking into their late 20's or 30's. Because it's stupid. You do it because it's "cool" and some older kid offers you a smoke. Then you get addicted and there's no going back.

Okay, enough ranting for now. Maybe I'll post more tomorrow.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
How many less abortions would there be each year if we had a national health care plan, such that every woman knew the full cost of her pregnancy and delivery would be covered? How many less abortions would there be if every woman had better access to birth control? How many less abortions would there be if everyone had a job?
Is there anywhere in the world that has this that can be used as a model?
 
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DarthFerret

Guest
I feel now, the need to clairify my position on abortion (I have kinda left it up in the air). I feel pretty much the way turgy does with a few twists to it. I personally for my own self am Pro-life. I will never have an abortion (and neither will my wife...if she was the kind of woman that would, she would not be my wife).

However, as society goes, I am pro-choice. Why? you might ask (then again you might not). Simply because I take almost every measure possible to advocate LESS government. I do not feel that the government should be given control over an individuals choice in any moral standing. That includes, but is not limited to, religion, spending (personal spending), income tax, abortion, press, speech, assembly.

I think the role of government should be to Govern a Body of People. Not the individuals, but the group as a whole. I realize this is a more Libertarian sort of view point (although not quite as extreem as most of them will take it). I can tell you one thing for sure. The answer is NEVER: Hey lets get more Government control!
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I'm pro-choice myself and believe the decision should be among the people involved. Making a broad sweep of pro-life to me means extending that view to ALL aspects of life, like the death penalty for instance, and I think there's too many contradictions/situations to cover them all.
 

Ransac

CPA Trash Man
I'm just gonna out on a limb and state the following: I really don't care what everyone else's political beliefs or opinions are and I REALLY don't feel that arguing on this site what MY beliefs or opinions are will really make a difference. People hate Bush. People (me) hate Hillary. People hate Obama. I personally don't understand why people like skank, I mean, Hillary, but some of you seem to like the thing.

I personally can't stand people preaching the word-doings of our country or our politicians, either side. I DO rag on Hillary a lot, but I'm not expecting to belittle or mock anyone elses trust or belief or her.

The bottom line of what I'm trying to say is this: Democratic, Republican, Pro-Choice, Pro-Life, Death Penalty, Life in Prison, or whatver, I come to this site to escape most of these things that rag down everyday life.

AND, Vote Ransac/Monkey 2008. The Dwarven Pony would be my Secretary of State!


Ransac, cpa trash man
 

Killer Joe

New member
I have had many folks of the opposite opinion claim that pro-choice folks think that abortion is solely used for casual purposes (i.e. birth control), yes for many other reasons but not just for the sake of it. I don't think anyone really does it for that reason alone. I could be wrong. <shrugs>
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Ransac: I agree, which is why I don't get too involved in these discussions most of the time. However, I think it's good that as most of us have come together from a common interest of playing Magic, we find out more about that person with their other views and interests. This is only one forums and if you don't like such discussions, of course you don't have to click on them :)

And I think you need to change running mates. You haven't been able to win yet with the Monkey...
 
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