New Format: Top Deck

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BigBlue

Guest
Here's a new format I've been thinking of...

It's called Top Deck.

Each player's beginning library consists of 1 copy of every card printed not on the banned list. Reprinted cards and alternative artwork cards have only 1 copy including basic lands.
Cards from the Unhinged and Unglued expansions are banned.
The Following are also Banned: Channel, Counterbalance, Erratic Explosion, Howltooth Hollow, Kaboom!, Land Tax, Mindslaver, Riddle of Lightning, Shadow of Doubt, The Rack, Tolarian Academy, Undying Flames, Yawgmoth's Will, Zur's Weirding
Each player starts with 1 card of their choosing from their library.
At the beginning of a match, one player selected at random chooses to play or draw.
The following alterations to the standard rules apply:
Each time a player would draw a card, they instead choose a card from their library and put it into their hand.
Each time a player would return a card from the graveyard to the library, they remove the card from the game instead.
Each time a player would reveal the top card of their library, they choose the card revealed, however this will be their next draw unless their library is shuffled.
Each time a spell, ability, or effect would cause a player to draw more than one card during a turn, they draw one card instead.
Each time an spell, ability, or effect would cause a player to remove more than one card from their library during a turn, they remove only one card instead.
Each time a spell, ability, or effect would cause a player to reveal more than one card from their library during a turn, they reveal only one card instead.
The maximum hand size is 1.
At the conclusion of each game, remove all cards in play, all revealed cards, and all cards in the graveyard from the game. The remaining cards in the library are used for the next game.
Each Match is a best of 5 series.
The loser of a game chooses whether to play or draw the next game.

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Alternative Limited version - each library consists of all cards from a single Block (Mirage-Visions-Weatherlight for example), however there are 50 copies of each basic land (and basic snow land) rather than only one.
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The format is still a work in progress, other changes may occur.

5/15 - Clarified draw effects are per turn like reveal and remove effects on library.
5/15 - Added if a library is shuffled, the top revealed card does not have to be the next draw - the card is still removed after the game since it was revealed.
5/24 - updated Banned List using Turgy's suggestions.
 

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
Wow, do hate blue too?..."Second, the maximum hand size is 0 (during your discard, you discard all cards in your hand)"

All counters become useless, as does cursed scroll, and all the ones that use cards in hand.

We could play Yu Gi Oh instead..... :eek:
 

turgy22

Nothing Special
I think it sounds interesting. Every format is going to screw over certain cards, why not screw over some good ones?

I'm willing to playtest.
 
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Modus Pwnens

Guest
Instead of play/draw, the first player draws, and the second player gets to have any card from their library in hand to start.

How does the first player know what card this'll be, as he can't choose it?
It'll be a bit boring at the start, as both players will have to start with some mana.
Basic lands restricted, and then banned for the next games? Good luck with that.
The first player choosing Recall, searching for lotus, mox, mox wins?
 
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BigBlue

Guest
You have to think outside the box... counters aren't useless....

Find ways to draw a card during opponents turn, then you can draw the counter you want...

There'll be plenty of other broken cards... It's not the same as the regular game, but then neither are any of the other formats we've been playing... like mindmaster...

It's really all about knowledge of the game - and it's cards... it's "top deck", so you'll always draw an answer... But, you'll only draw it once in a match, so you may want to hold off... :)

I think the interesting thing will be the limited land pool - only 10 basic lands (including snow lands).

This could be a collosal bomb... but, doesn't everyone enjoy that "top deck skill"? :)

Here it's just different. Madness will be a broken mechanic, cycling could also be w/ the ones that have 2 effects... BTW... Library of Leng is banned...
 
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BigBlue

Guest
We'll see... they'll be able to that trick only 1 time in a match - and none of those cards will be available for subsequent games to them.

I think it's more like chess - in that the playing field is pretty level. And maybe getting to start with a card is too great an advantage for the second player...

I expect we'll see some lopsided games... but, like I said, it'll only work one game in a match, and I think people will figure out ways to break those easy wins... if not, we can ban more cards to make the game interesting... I wanted to start with as few restrictions as possible and let the format develop from there.
 
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BigBlue

Guest
So, Turgy or spidey... wanna try a game? You can choose whether to go first or second - though I have a feeling the extra card is too broken so it'll be the first rule to change.
 
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BigBlue

Guest
I meant vs. me... just to see how it goes...

I think in order to track things, previously used cards (from earlier games) will be in the "removed from game" zone...
 
M

Modus Pwnens

Guest
I got an idea looking at the current game, which is clearly a bit broken.

Why not limit the cardpool a bit to say, legacy, extended, standard, block or even set?

People still have the same resources, even though playing a set can be hard with best of three. It would most likely require the "unrestriction" of basic land, but I don't think that's a problem. Say you get to see about 30 nonland cards in a game, that would mean that you can play best of three (worst case scenario: 3 games) and still only see two thirds of the cards in the set.

Leaving vintage alone would create somewhat more of a balance I think..
 

turgy22

Nothing Special
I don't think the format is clearly broken, although I'm sure I'm not the one to be digging for ways to break it. Clearly, Ancestrall Recall is profoundly powerful, but you'll still only be able to use it once in a best-of-five series, so it pretty well restricts itself. I'm also going to say that Black Lotus and probably Lion's Eye Diamond are too good as well, but I think AR takes the cake.

I also think that in such a restrictive format, land destruction is going to be a bit overpowered and since it's a lot more available, it might need to be banned. Alternatively, you could unrestrict the basics and let each player get an auto land drop of their choice each turn, like in mindmaster, although that might swing things the other way, into degenerate combos and turn 1 wins. I'm not sure.

Overall, though, I really did enjoy the game we played. It feels more like chess than Magic, since you spend so much time thinking of every possible move and there's no hidden information to worry about.

I do like Modus' suggestion of restricting the cardpool to smaller formats and think that could work really well, although it would almost certainly require an unrestricting of the basics. I also think it might work to allow a hand size of one card. I think the format would retain its feel while also allowing a few surprise cards here and there.
 
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BigBlue

Guest
I figured the broken cards would be mitigated by the fact they only affect one game since they're gone for the other 4 games...

however, the trouble is, that is likely going to make it a best of 3 match once both players use the broken cards...

So, perhaps we could ban the restricted cards to make it more interesting.
 
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rokapoke

Guest
Perhaps using a "shared library" would help with the broken cards issue? Then one game is a race to use the most broken cards, rather than two games affected by the broken cards.

You could even use the first "broken" game just to figure out who gets choice for game 1 of the "real" best-of-five.
 
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BigBlue

Guest
The shared library was actually my first thought... but I felt it shouldn't be a race to take up cards...

Trouble I have is at this point I can't get anything going against turgy... I'm going to keep going though...
 
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BigBlue

Guest
A couple other rules things I think we should do...

No Unglued set cards... Y/N?

If a card would be put in the library, remove it from the game instead. Y/N?

Can wishes access RfG cards? I don't want to see cards returning from earlier games.

As I mentioned earlier - After a game concludes all cards not played are part of the library for the next game - note all the used cards in the Removed from Game zone.
 

turgy22

Nothing Special
BigBlue said:
No Unglued set cards... Y/N?
That usually goes without saying. A lot of the cards from those sets are impossible to play on a message board.

BigBlue said:
If a card would be put in the library, remove it from the game instead. Y/N?
Maybe. Probably. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head.

BigBlue said:
Can wishes access RfG cards? I don't want to see cards returning from earlier games.
I'd say yes on this one, just to try it out. Hadn't really thought about it, but it might be interesting considering that wishes are completely useless the first game and could be very good in later games. If they're too good in later games, then no.
 
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