New Draw rule kills The Rack?

Discussion in 'CPA/WOTC Magic Issues' started by rakso, Jun 6, 2001.

  1. rakso New Member

    From: http://www.bdominia.com/discus/messages/9/16173.shtml

    And the rules addition that made it all necessary:

    P.7 - Draw Step
    + P.7.1 - The game has a "built-in" triggered ability (see Rule A.4) for this
    step that reads: "At the beginning of your draw step, draw a card." This
    places a "draw a card" ability on the stack (see Rule T.2) on top of
    any other abilities that trigger on the start of this step. No player
    controls this ability and it is placed after all ones controlled by
    players have been placed. [Rules Team 01/05/01]

    ********************************************
    Now, I’m surprised that no one has discussed this, to my knowledge, in this Mill. Take a moment and consider the modern uses for these two cards and how this rules change effects them:

    The Rack: now sucks. Almost unplayable. The most you’re going to get out of it 99% of the time is 2 damage (opponent starting a turn with zero cards, drawing, then The Rack triggers for 2). This card was not amazing before this ruling. Now it’s seriously junk.
  2. Namielus Phrexian Plaguelord

    What is the 2nd card?


    Sorry to disagree with you Rakso, but I don't know of that many players favor the rack that much. Its just not that good of a card any more... Unless your bringing back a megrim deck with 7th including megrim.

    Well I don't really see the problem... but I guess thats just me not caring about the rack.
  3. Hetemti The Wide-Awake Nightmare

    Dang...I should've bought those Vices when I had the chance at the Pre-Re.
  4. TomB Administrative Assistant

    From what I remember The Vise and The Rack used to trigger during Upkeep. There's still an Upkeep phase, er, step, isn't there? When did they change (errata) those cards?

    Huh.

    Oh well, I guess I'll put a Black Vise into my T1 deck and see how it works (if I ever get another chance to use it). I use to run 4 in there, but I took them all out when it got Restricted.

    I'm sorry I don't really share your concern over The Rack, rakso (hmmm...). It was a weak card before, IMO, and all this does is make it a little weaker. No biggie for me.

    Dontcha' just love 6E/7E rules...;)
  5. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Erm, Rack triggers in upkeep? Upkeep is before Draw Step? No change there since Alpha.
  6. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Black Vise and The Rack now trigger at the beginning of the draw step. I don't know when the change was made though.

    It does make The Rack a bit weaker, and of course the Vise a bit stronger. However, it was the Vise that was restricted a while back; is it unrestricted now? I forgot to check that section.

    I always played with the Rack when I had a discard deck; it was a sure source of damage once you got your opponent down to less than three cards. Megrim doesn't help when he has zero cards :)

    But since you could always pack 4, maybe it was viewed as "slightly too strong" inside WOTC.
  7. Hellion New Member

    I luv The Rack in my T1 drop deck....it could beat even Sligh....

    Well, consider this, The Rack is a poor man's Cursed Scroll, if you drop him to 0 cards, 2 damage per turn is a pretty good deal when you have Hypnotic Specters and other weenies beating him down.

    Even though this kills the rack a little, it doesn't stop me from running 3 in my deck, it's still SOME good. I rather add The Rack into my deck than Underworld Dreams get what i mean?

    Anyways, I'm gonna check out this upkeep drawphase thingy cause i'm confused already.....
  8. Hellion New Member

    The Rack
    At the end of target opponent's upkeep, The Rack deals that player1 damage for each card in his or her hand fewer than three.

    P.6 - Upkeep Step

    P.6.1 - This is the first step of the turn during which any player receives priority. This means
    that any abilities that triggered at the start of this step, or during the Untap step are placed on
    the stack (see Rule T.2) at this time, then the current player gets priority to play spells and
    abilities. See Rule T.3 for details. [CompRules 99/04/23]
    P.6.Ruling.1 - If an ability triggers at the beginning of upkeep, removing the permanent that
    generated that ability from play after that will not stop the ability from resolving (see Rule T.6).
    This means you cannot destroy a permanent in order to avoid its "at beginning of upkeep"
    ability. [D'Angelo 99/05/01]

    That's it.....that's the end of this phrase.....the drawing rule doesn't interfer with The Rack's ability because Upkeep step and Draw step are two different steps (phrases)

    Is that correct?
  9. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    The Rack and Black Vise both trigger at the beginning of your draw step now.

    Unless The Rack receives errata to change this (don't bet on it*) then it will almost never deal more than 2 damage to its target, since she will always draw her normal card before The Rack's ability resolves.

    *(FYI: Changing it to trigger at the end of upkeep wouldn't make any difference. Since triggered abilites only go on the stack when a player would receive priority, such an ability would wait until the beginning of the draw step to go on the stack anyway. That's why there are no end-of-step triggers now.)
  10. TomB Administrative Assistant

    But how exactly does it make sense that an ability like The Rack's that occurred during the Upkeep "step" (pre-errata) wouldn't actually go on the "stack" until the Draw "step"?

    CT, I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me. Is that why they errata'd those 2 cards? Because, otherwise, I just don't see the point in messing with 2 old cards that aren't eligible for anything but T1 play anyway.

    :confused:
  11. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Almost every phase/step now begins with the active player having priority (a couple exceptions are the Untap Step and the Cleanup Step). One of the rules of triggered abilities is that they go on the Stack the next time that a player has priority. If The Rack kept its old wording of "at end of upkeep", it would trigger at the end of upkeep (which is ambiguous now, since there isn't a "definite" end unless someone says they're leaving it) but wouldn't go on the Stack until the next available moment, which would be the beginning of the Draw Step where it is explicitly defined as 'At beginning of Draw Step, the active player has priority'.

    So yes, I think they changed the wording to match the 6th rules. But of course The Rack, Black Vise, and probably some others have BEEN changing wording as the rules evolved, because they began as "During upkeep" which got really hairy.

    Did that help? Bottom Line: There's nothing explicit in the rules that have an "At end of <whatever> step, active player has priority" so triggers that would have said it would have to wait until the beginning of the next step (and as Chaos Turtle[/i] mentioned, they probably changed all such wording so they all say "at the beginning of <the next> step" now).
  12. rakso New Member

    Er... so is it legal?

    The Rack dealing 2 damage instead of 3 is NOT a slight change, btw. :)

    That's like saying Lightning Bolt and Shock are almost identical!
  13. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Is what legal?

    I don't know if it's "seriously junk", but then, I don't play regularly with it. Just play with more Black Vises :)
  14. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    Text(4th+errata): As ~this~ comes into play, choose target opponent. ; At the beginning of the chosen player's draw step, ~this~ deals X damage to that player where X is the number of cards in his or her hand fewer than three. [Oracle 99/09/03]

    Sheesh. :) Happy?
  15. TomB Administrative Assistant

    But it's not THAT big of a deal. It's just that The Rack/Black Vise were meant to take effect at some point during the Upkeep "phase". Otherwise, why did they use the word "Upkeep" right on the cards? I understand that with 6th Ed. there might very well have been a need to errata the cards - I guess what I'm asking is "Why not change it over to say they take effect at the beginning of Upkeep, since it makes the cards behave more like they were intended to prior to the rules changes?"

    You know, this does tie into the thread Dune Echo started in the General Forum on cards affected by the errata. Interesting...
  16. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I am actually wondering the same thing, why they couldn't just put the trigger at beginning of upkeep rather than the draw step, because I got caught on it while answering a rules question in the Rules forum. If you've played a while, you just don't think of it triggering during the draw step when all the previous incarnations said upkeep.

    Maybe it's like Fog :)
  17. Lotus Mox New Member

    What's the deal with Fog?
  18. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Fog went through at least three different incarnations, each one acting a different way.

    Unlimited: "Creatures attack and block as normal, but none deal any damage. All attacking creatures are still tapped. Play any time before attack damage is dealt."

    Revised: "Creatures attack and block as normal, but none deal any damage or otherwise affect any creature as a result of an attack or block. All attacking creatures are still tapped. Play any time before attack damage is dealt."

    Fourth: "No creatures deal damage in combat this turn."
  19. theorgg Slob

    The rules team is now officially on crack.

    APNAP-- active player, non-active player.

    Since the "Draw A Card" is a triggered ability built into the phase, the active player(the one who's draw step it is) would have to put onto the stack his/her draw, and any other triggered abilities that happened at that point. The Non-Active player, the Rack controller(assuming!) then has to put his effects on the stack. The rack therefore would go on top of the draw effect on the stack.

    If the Level 2 running the 1.5 tournament is on crack in a similar manner, that will suck. I'm trying out a simi-pox deck, and that screws it over-- MAJORLY!
  20. Jake74 King of Worthless Trivia

    The 'draw a card' ability isn't controlled by either player, so it goes on the stack last, after all triggered abilities...

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