Discussion in 'Casual Decks/Variants/Etc' started by Griffith_se, Aug 24, 2000.

  1. Griffith_se Queen of the Sub-Optimal

    I see that Lobotomy is reprinted in invasion. Does anyone have a Lobotomy deck that I can look at.

    I love to play Black and Blue, and want to get some ideas for a T2 Lobotomy deck when Urza's rotates out.

    I think Invasion is going to be fun.
  2. Purple_jester New Member

    Lobotomy is a very evil card. I combined it into my blue/black discard not too long ago, and until Masques came along (with its strictly mono-color emphasis), it worked even better then Persecute.

    The problem of suggesting a deck idea right now is that I don't know what other cards are coming out in Invasion. I know there's a black mana-converter creature, as well as another version of the drowned, but I still don't know about any other cards which might be perfect for the deck.

    So tell you what, I can post up my old Extended deck, and you can just find Type 2 substitutes once Invasion rolls around, okay? However, I'll suggest substitutes whenever I can. :)

    4 Underground Sea / Underground River
    2 Rootwater Depths
    2 Gemstone Mine
    2 Reflecting Pool
    6 Island
    5 Swamp
    1 Wasteland / Dust Bowl

    Gold Spells:
    4 Lobotomy

    Black Spells:
    4 Hymn to Tourach / Stupor
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Order of Yawgmoth
    4 Hypnotic Specter / Abyssal Specter
    3 Wall of Souls / Ravenous Rats
    2 Duress / Coercion
    2 Eradicate / Dark Banishing

    Blue Spells:
    4 Counterspell
    2 Boomerang / Hoodwink

    1 Disrupting Scepter
    2 Jester's Cap
    4 The Rack / Wheel of Torture / Rackling

    The object of the deck is to remove key cards from your opponent's library. The Lobotomy and Cap can eventually cripple any combo-based deck. If you're lucky, you can cast a Lobotomy by the second turn. If they've already put down a key permanent, you can return it to his hand during their discard phase with Boomerang/Hoodwink, then Lobotomize it during your turn. The discarders fill the rest of the deck up, and the Walls of Souls are meant to provide an excellent defense against weenies or single huge creatures. If no such equivalent exists by Invasion, you could just sub in any legal discard-type creature.

    Of course, this is a somewhat slow deck, and it will usually lose to weenies and sligh unless you can get the Walls out. But it's a lot of fun if it gets going. Any deck that's based around one or two cards will lose to this deck at least 75% of the time. I've used this deck on Tinker decks, and believe me, they usually concede after you've removed their Voltaic Keys or their Tinkers. It has the same lovely effect on Wildfire, Hermit and Replenish. Also, just once, I put in a single Denying Wind, just for fun. I've only gotten to use it about 2 to 3 times, but when I did, I won the game. ;)

    BTW, Thanks a lot for the signature. I'll be using it soon.
  3. Griffith_se Queen of the Sub-Optimal


    Thats just the kind of thing I'm looking for. I just want a kind of template to work with when Invasion comes out.
  4. Riva Iron-Grip da Kandy Man

    god i cant wait for invasion to come out. hopufully incasion will be another mercmasques. that was one of the best sets ever. not only that, but invasion has lobotomies. and those kick a**. you can screw up someones day with just 1 of them. so all i can say is YEAH FOR INVASION. now prophecy was ok, but MM was MUCH better
  5. Griffith_se Queen of the Sub-Optimal

    Purple Jester

    This was My atempt at an Extended Lobotomy deck. There isn't much in MMB That could replace some of these cards.
    Like You said, until We have spoiler there isn't a whole lot I can do. Just trying to plan ahead a little bitty teeny tiny bit.:) I can't wait to see a spoiler list.

    To anybody:

    Ah forget about future T2 for now.:) Could I get a critique(sp?) on this deck as is?

    3 Masticore
    3 Powder Keg
    4 Cursed Scroll

    4 Ophidian
    1 Morphling
    3 Disrupt
    4 Force Spike

    4 Lobotomy

    4 Duress
    4 Dark Ritual
    2 Demonic Consultation

    4 Underground Sea
    8 Swamp
    12 Island

    [Edited by Griffith_se on August 25th, 2000 at 06:19 PM]
  6. Purple_jester New Member

    I love the powder keg idea. It works well since your creatures are at least casting cost 3. You'd wreck yur Cursed Scrolls, but few people can use more than 1 anyway, and you 4 main deck anyway.

    One question: Since you have 12 Islands and 4 Underground Seas, why not use conventional counters like Counterspell, Arcane Denial or Force of Will? I know the Disrupts are annoying little cantrips, but I'm wondering about the Force Spikes. If you insist on using the micro-counters, then Daze is a better card than Force Spike. Returning an Isalnd to your hand can also help with Cursed Scroll or Masticore.

    The Masticores (wow, you have 3 of them) will make certain that you get full use out of your Cursed Scrolls, and they're good backup creature control. It's interesting to see how these two cheesy and hated artifacts will interact.

    The Demonic Consultations are a nice touch. You could also use Vampiric Tutor for about the same effect, at a cost of only 2 life. I can see that it is possible to have a Consultation/Tutor in your opening hand along with either Dark Ritual or Lobotomy.

    1st Turn: Play Swamp. Consult or Tutor during opponent's turn. Search for Dark Ritual or Lobotomy (whatever is missing from your hand).

    2nd Turn: Play Island. Cast Dark Ritual. Cast Lobotomy.

    I like the control-beatdown aspect of the deck. Nasty. What do you call it? :D

    Oh, and I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that there's nothing in MMB that can replace the cards in this deck. But for me, it just raises my hopes that there's something juicy in Invasion. Other blue-black cards, other than Lobotomy, which I hope to see reprinted: Lim Dul's Vault and Essence Vortex. Or, at least, something equivalent. ;)
  7. Griffith_se Queen of the Sub-Optimal

    My Hubby Help build this for Me, I wish I could take full credit for it. :(

    Yes, as a matter of fact I am now the humble owner of four. :)
  8. rakso New Member

    Purple_jester, I really can't recommend Arcane Denial. It gives your opponent more cards, and it is most useful in multi-color weenie decks that need to protect tempo at a key moment, or in combo decks where the opponent won't live to draw the cards.

    Anyhow, I think one aspect to Lobotomy that is missed is its fun if you play bounce, like the old Tradewind Rider. Imagine this deck with Type II legal equivalents from Hoodwink to Waterfront Bouncer to Temporal Adept (though this one is rather fragile).

    Another part of the story is a couple of good Lobotomy hits will screw up the opponent's draws, since he will end up with a higher percentage of mana in the deck.
  9. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    I always loved invasion in black-blue mana denial, becasue they always ended up with their good cards in their hand...

    Oh, and I do recommend Arcane denial. It's no cards for you, and they trade oen card they like for two randomly. Almost all counterspell decks can capitalize on that. You don't like'em? Send 'em to me. I'll take them.
  10. rakso New Member

    No, I like Arcane Denial because I think Richard Kane-Ferguson is one of the best and the new breed of artists just don't capture the same flavor. :)

    However, two "random" cards doesn't necessarily mean two "bad" cards, and a slow blue deck full of counters is one of the worst at capitalizing on openings. Why? It's slow, has very few threats, and has to gain complete control then look for a finisher.

    With that argument, a creature deck that splashed Arcane Denial would be better since it can counter something like Wrath of God then keep beating down without skipping a beat. Or, even a combo deck where one more draw can mean drawing into the last combo component.

    But again, for a pure blue deck, one more card might just mean that thing that will slip through the wall of countermagic, so I'd stay with Mana Leak or Misdirection for the 2-mana category for a counter deck. Even Flash Counter could probably cover that hole nicely.
  11. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    No, two random cards doesn't mean two bad cards, but denial is less situational thatn mana leak.
  12. rakso New Member

    Definitely not.

    So we were talking in the context of blue counter decks, right?

    Arcane Denial gives your opponent more cards than you get, meaning it is useful only in very specific deck types. Definitely not mono blue.

    Mana Leak basically functions as a counterspell in the first few turns of the game, or during counter wars when the opponent has tapped most of the mana. By the time the opponent can pay the 3 mana, you can use the 3cc and 4cc counterspells, and chuck Mana Leak to Forbid.

    You need the 2cc slot early, anyway, when gaining control, and you'll burn the Mana Leaks here and use the more effective spells later on.
  13. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Honestly, Mana leak never made my list. Miscalculation is, by my logic, better. If they tap out (very common) they're both as good. But if they learn not to tap out, the chance they'll leave 2 but not three mana open is small. Then, you can cycle it. Sorry.

    Oh, and I run 4 denials in my mono-blue counterspell deck. They work wonders. Especially with arcane laboratory.
  14. rakso New Member

    When the Pros needed splashed counters for Extended decks, if I remember, they picked 4 Mana Leaks and only added Arcane Denials for Slot 5 and later. I think some even stuck the fifth counter just to make the opponent think they were using eight counters. They probably playtested a lot, so this must have some value.

    Try playing Arcane Denial against another counterspell deck and I doubt it will work wonders.

    Arcane Lab is fun, but I think more card drawing offers more flexibility. You'll play Arcane Lab at a point where you should have some control over the game and an advantage in card drawing and mana, and I figure you lose more flexibility in the deal.

    You'll have to use card-drawing permanents instead of spells like Whispers of the Muse and manipulation instants, and if you're not drawing more cards, he can keep playing cards until you run out of counters because some cards drawn will be land.

    And if you need to play nonland permanents to deal with man-lands, you also create an opening. There is a reason why Mishra's Factory was the traditional enemy of mono blue.

    But I'm not saying Arcane Laboratory isn't fun, as it kills some combo decks and is solid in some CounterPhoenix decks that have a sure counter each turn with Forbid buyback.
  15. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    you know, I don't know why mishra's factory is the enemy of mono-blue. Two of my mono-blue deck run it.
    oh, wait, that's in case of a mirror matchup.

    As to Arcane Denial. I tested with mana leaks, and found they were less likely to suceed. Then miscalculation, then arcane denial.
  16. rakso New Member

    Mono blue just doesn't like man-lands. Uncounterable creatures against a color that doesn't have removal and has to use stuff like Desert, Quicksand, Powder Keg and Disk?

    Okay, I give up. Explain why you thought this happened.
  17. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Well, miscalculation was easy:
    Chances are, they're either gonna tap out (dumb) or leave plenty of land open. The chances that they'll leave 2 but not 3 mana available is not high.
    So, miscalculation's cycling ability can be used to let me draw cards when I need to counter a spell and they have alot of mana.

    As to arcane denial, that's more of how my deck functions, not a comment on the card.
  18. rakso New Member

    I don't think this is very accurate, considering the difference one or two turns makes. But if you can cycle Miscalculation, you can chuck Mana Leak to Forbid or save it for a long exchange of counters later on. Force Spike is a usable card in counter-heavy decks, by the way.

    Going back to the original question, so how DOES your deck work, then?
  19. Purple_jester New Member

    Lookie! Lookie! <points eagerly at last few posts>

    Duel and Rakso are casting verbal counterspells at each other! Who will win? When will the fast and furious verbal countermagic stop? The actions shows no signs of ceasing! What fun! What excitement! What a wonderful example of near-pointless ranting by two dedicated blue mages! :D
  20. rakso New Member

    Nah, it's just habitual annoyance due to having to constantly correct T1 players who feel that Arcane Denial is an all-purpose counterspell.

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