Israel

[Mr_Pestilence]

There are no innocent parties involved in this confrontation.

Israel says it wants peace, but at the same time it treats the Palestinians as badly or worse than Hitler treated the Jews. Did you know the Palestinians have been living in "refugee camps" for more than 50 years?

Israel seems to have the attitude, "Beatings will continue until morale improves".

The Palestinians had their land forcibly taken away in 1948 to create a nation for Israel, and they were herded into glorified concentration camps.

Just something to ponder - has any war ever been started by aetheists?

This is the one issue that I believe can never be solved, as long as both sides exist.

Truly, neither side wants peace - they want to slaughter every human on the other side of the conflict, obliterate any evidence they ever existed, grind them to dust, and watch them be blown away.

America's best response would be to pull back to a safe distance and wash our hands of the whole mess. If they want our help, they know how to get in touch with us.

 

[theorgg]

Originally posted by Mr_Pestilence
Just something to ponder - has any war ever been started by aetheists?

As some have said, there really is no side. Too much history has elipsed.

As for this quandry of Mr. P's: We commonly study him in High School as "Hitler"-- unless you count Nazism as his religeon.

Athiests in war are probably worse than the rest-- they don't answer to anyone.

 

[Multani]

I've just gotta chime in on this one....


theorgg: Actually, I think Hitler was sorta Cathloic...not sure, but he did have a religion...at least in his younger days.

Spiderman: There's nothing wrong with having a mind filled with doubt, but this is simply ridiculous. In a situation such as this, source or no source is irrelavent. Also, keep in mind, not everything needs to be backed up with a source. If I said that Israel was killing Palestinians, would you ask me for a source, even though that fact is out there for anyone to see???

Hetemti:

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Course, America's been funding and supplying the Israilies for decades while they cheat the palistinians by breaking all the peace agreements they sign
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Eh? What's this?

I must now ask you whether or not you've been in denial, or whether you're just a hermit. Of course the U.S. is funding Israel! How do you think they got those M1-A1 MBT's and F-16's. How do you think they their Nukes? Don't ask me for a source. I refuse to show you a book or website with such common-knowledge information...

DUke:

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You know, I figured that any sensible human being would ask...what in the world would derive a teenage lady, who has her whole entire life ahead of her, to kill herself and end her life at such a young age? I mean, the girl must be fed up! And "fed up" probably is the greatest understatement of all time.
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Or has been indoctrined from birth/start of education that all Israelis are "evil"... "fed up" more assumes that she has actually had a chance to see peace.

Before you voice something like that, put yourself in that littleg girl's position, and then lets see whether you can still say that. Also, never doubt the openmindedness of a teenager...no matter what dogma has been inserted into his or her mind.

quote:
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Anyone who's been looking at the news would know that Sharon has been a clone of Hitler -- he's straight forward committing terrorism on the innocent Palestinians...and of course, when Palestinians hit back with the *only* thing they got ("suicide bombing") that counts as "terrorism."
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Again, eh? I'll take the position that the Palestinians are not "hitting back", they're just plain hitting.

Okay, I gotta give Spidey a bit of credit as he's partially right. The very first time that the Arabs hit Israel, it was TECHNICALLY unprovoked.
However, since Sharon started using Tanks and armored vehicles to attack Palestinians, "terrorism" is their only way of retaliation.

Let's start with this: The current Israeli military actions are in response to the attacks on Isreali citizens in the month of March, which has seen the death of about 120+ Israelis, the most since this started in 2000, including the Passover bombing that took the lives of most of them (I think). So if Israeli is guilty, the Palestinians are more so.

For every Israeli that dies, anywhere from 5 to 15 die in retaliatory attacks. So..multiply that number, and we see that in that month, at least 600 Palestinians have died....probably more than that actually....

Arhar: With a comment like that...you're a disgrace to humanity. If I were a mod, I would ban you. Feel lucky that I am not.
If the U.S. slaughtered the rest of the world, you would be up there supporting the government...how blind can you be.
Again, for people who missed it the first time:

I wish I was there in Israeli army right now... I just imagine having some fun with Arab families: hang the father by his entrails, and then rape the mother and daughter... Fun for the whole squad!

Absolutely disgusting...

...you'd feel right at home with Hitler...and you're almost as bad as Riva Iron-Grip....

 

[arhar]

Originally posted by Multani

Arhar: With a comment like that...you're a disgrace to humanity. If I were a mod, I would ban you. Feel lucky that I am not.
If the U.S. slaughtered the rest of the world, you would be up there supporting the government...how blind can you be.
Again, for people who missed it the first time:



Absolutely disgusting...

...you'd feel right at home with Hitler...and you're almost as bad as Riva Iron-Grip.... [/B]

Actually, I posted that to make a point... but obviously, you're too stupid to get it. In my opinion, you should stop thinking - it hurts too much and you don't make any sense anyway.

 

[Thallid Ice Cream Man]

Woohoo! Massive Unending Flame War!!!Let's ban the forum while we're at it.

 

[Svenmonkey]

Yeah flame war!
So what if I started it, my intentions weren't to have you people make foolish comments at each other.

 

[Multani]

really? and what point might that be?
Are you trying to tell me that you care nothing for human life?
Please great Arhar! If I'm so ignorant, why not educate me and the masses with your unending rhetoric!

If it was a joke, it's not funny.
Seriously, what is your point?
I mean, at first I thought you were just being a sarcastic. But the lack of a "" and the words I WISH made me think you were serious....and considering the things you said after 9/11, well, I put 2 and 2 together.

Again, if you have a point, make it. But don't go degrading human life with comments like that while you're at it...

 

[Apollo]

You know what's sad? This is the most civil board I've ever been on. And we can't get a full page into a thread without screaming (figuratively) at each other.

Duke: If you're not going to tell us the reasoning behind your opinion, why do you keep restating it? All we ever hear from you is "The U.S. is scum" and never any reasoning. As somebody that gets half his information from CNN and the other half from Comedy Central, I really could benefit from your knowledge on the subject. Tell us why you feel this way; perhaps we will agree with you, then.

Arhar: I guess I miss the point. Ugh.

Spidey: Multani's kinda right. Not everything needs a source.

At any rate, I don't know a whole lot on the subject, so I don't think I'll chime in anymore. I'll just sit back and watch.

 

[MrXarvox]

With that said, I must declare that though I have personally read little about the history of Israel, that does not matter.
Look at the NOW.

We have Israeli tanks destroying property and people. We have Israeli soldiers shooting anyone who leaves their home. We have Palestinian people being detained with no cause other than their nationality. We have a whole nation (oh wait, they're not ALLOWED to be a nation, are they?) that has been given the shaft by high politicians of the entire world. We have people from there, with nothing left but a blind and violent religious dogma spawned by constant adversity, who feel that destroying themselves in the name of killing some Israeli scum (in their POV, of course) is the right, and only, thing to do.
We have an old racist jerk with a vaught towards all Palestinians running a country that does not (I cannot provide a direct source, but I read it in the news a week or two ago) even support him that much anymore due to his excessive measures.

Even the President of the United States, who was formerly chummy with Sharon, has been telling the scumbag to leave open a "pathway to peace".
Sharon does not listen. There is only one thing he wants to see, and it's exactly what arhar said HE would like to see, too.
Sharon is a filthy, stinking Nazi.

Then we have Hamas. These are the people that did a lovely job of giving Sharon a reason to obliterate their people.
These morons think that shattering cease-fires is a great idea.
These are people who can harbor a grudge throughout centuries by simply being dogmatic losers. Stupid, stupid people, who think that the way to stop Israel from squashing their towns is to provoke them further.

In short,

"Beatings will continue until morale improves"

is a philosophy adopted by both sides; but Israel has a huge, bloody broken-glass-covered scourge while Palestine has an annoying pokin' twig.

 

[arhar]

I wish you all had some relatives and close friends killed by suicide bombers.

 

[MrXarvox]

I wish you had some relatives and close friends killed by marauding soldiers backed up by the most powerful nations on Earth.

Then you might be able to see that "your people" aren't the only victims.

 

[TomB]

Originally posted by arhar
I wish you all had some relatives and close friends killed by suicide bombers.

But I can understand your pain if this has happened to you. Still, I think there's plenty of blood on the hands of both sides in this conflict, and I honestly can't say that either side is entirely in the right. I think it's a war that's been going on for centuries, guys, and I seriously doubt it'll ever end.

It's actually very sad...

 

[Spiderman]

Originally posted by Mr_Pestilence
Israel says it wants peace, but at the same time it treats the Palestinians as badly or worse than Hitler treated the Jews. Did you know the Palestinians have been living in "refugee camps" for more than 50 years?


The Palestinians had their land forcibly taken away in 1948 to create a nation for Israel, and they were herded into glorified concentration camps.

Acoording to this Brief History of Israel and Palestine, the reason why they had their land taken away is because the Arab states attacked Israel. Before that, Jews and "Palestinians" or Arabs were coexisting and the Arabs would not agree to a separate Jewish state.

Truly, neither side wants peace - they want to slaughter every human on the other side of the conflict, obliterate any evidence they ever existed, grind them to dust, and watch them be blown away.

I still think that the Israelis have been more open of cease-fires and it has been the Hamas who have been continually breaking them with suicide bombings (until shown otherwise).

America's best response would be to pull back to a safe distance and wash our hands of the whole mess. If they want our help, they know how to get in touch with us.

Since America has a vested interest in the Middle East, for oil if nothing less, the best response would be to use its economic influence in some way. There was some opinion article about that but I lost where it was on the Net.

Multani:

There's nothing wrong with having a mind filled with doubt, but this is simply ridiculous. In a situation such as this, source or no source is irrelavent. Also, keep in mind, not everything needs to be backed up with a source. If I said that Israel was killing Palestinians, would you ask me for a source, even though that fact is out there for anyone to see???

Sources in this case for forming Duke's opinion are pretty unimportant, which is why I dropped it. I was just asking for curiosity's sake since he self-admitted he was forming it on little evidence and that he has taken a seemingly strong stance that Israel bears the majority of the blame (for what, I'm still unclear - the whole conflict or just the events in the past couple of months). Your question to me is undisputed fact, which is why I don't ask for verification. It's when something IS disputed is when usually I would like something else.

I must now ask you whether or not you've been in denial, or whether you're just a hermit. Of course the U.S. is funding Israel! How do you think they got those M1-A1 MBT's and F-16's. How do you think they their Nukes? Don't ask me for a source. I refuse to show you a book or website with such common-knowledge information...

I knew I should have not included the first part of that sentence to which you are responding to but I thought the whole sentence would be not understood. What I was actually questioning was "while they cheat the palistinians by breaking all the peace agreements they sign "

Before you voice something like that, put yourself in that littleg girl's position, and then lets see whether you can still say that. Also, never doubt the openmindedness of a teenager...no matter what dogma has been inserted into his or her mind.

I've read a few "documentary" articles on the education process of Israelis and Palestinians which is why I say that. And again, I'm not saying it's an absolute certainty, I was just raising an additional motivation as to why someone might become a suicide bomber, in response to Duke's question about it.

However, since Sharon started using Tanks and armored vehicles to attack Palestinians, "terrorism" is their only way of retaliation.

I will be willing to bet that there have been more suicide bombers than response with tanks and armored vehicles.

For every Israeli that dies, anywhere from 5 to 15 die in retaliatory attacks. So..multiply that number, and we see that in that month, at least 600 Palestinians have died....probably more than that actually....

That's true. I was just stating that as a starting point. But again, I will be willing to bet that if the Hamas ceased sending their sucide bombers in AND protests were actually peaceful instead of throwing rocks and whatnot, there would be no need for retaliatory measures.

To all: I did not close this thread in response to arhar's post because I got the sarcastic message and he's done similiar sarcastic postings in other threads. I did feel it was a bit out of bounds and asked him and DUke indirectly to stop the mudslinging in that fashion.

 

[DÛke]

...

Apollo -- To be honest, I have restated my opinion over, and over, and over, and over, *and* over again. Did anyone agree? No. Does anyone really care? I wouldn't think so -- because we keep falling into this roundabout.

My opinion is that, basically, both sides are guilty of killing. That's already established. However, it is my opinion which I formed from facts that, if you want to talk number of deaths, than Palestinians have lost far more people than Israelis. Second, if you want to talk violence and aggression, again, Israel wins by a great vote. You want to talk about military capability? Israel wins by all counts thanks to the U.S.. Those things are *all* proven, all have been said in *these* very boards...yet believe me, Apollo, someone out there wants me to get "sources." To say that a teenage lady, and other kids and teenagers that commit suicide are basically just following a radical dogma is something so ignorant. Nobody is like that. Not Israelis. Not Palestinians. Those teenagers are you like and I...they want to live and enjoy their lives, sadly, they have to end it because metaphorically (and even literarily), it had already ended in all senses. I would do the same to if I was repressed to such limits...

That is why I say, if you know some history, and have been following the story, you'd easily see that Israel is really getting overboard. It is redefining viciousness as we speak. They've broken many rules, they don't listen to anyone -- at the moment, Israel sees itself as the greatest country in the world, because it is doing what it likes without bounds.

This stuff I said so far needs no source at all. If you disagree with me than you're disagreeing with the stuff out there.

The problem is, this is called a war.

The 9/11 act was rejected as being a war *because* the U.S. wasn't ready. It had no army ready. Basically, it was one force over the people, not another force. Well now, this "war" has only one army, and that's the army of Israel. Pardon me when I say that a war needs two (or more) opposing armies! The Palestinians army is absent from this picture. Heck, it had been absent for long now. Palestinians are dying, fighting *with* their lives. Do you call that a war? It seems much more like the terrorism, as defined *by* the U.S., by Americans, and by many, many others all over the world. Why some of you don’t see that really goes beyond me…

When I get Arhar calling me a liar, that really shows how much *he* knows. If what I'm saying is a lie, than every other news media in the world (even the CNN) has been lying! His level of communication (with me at least) is so low...that he doesn't take a chance at listening *before* he goes out and accusing me of lying -- which is something I *don't* need to do since I'm sure of what I'm saying. And if this is "twisted" truth, than please...than I'm sorry, but you're in self denial.

I think this whole deal *will* end. It's getting out hand. People are talking. Israel is not going to stop just yet. When this finally ends, it will end with a big bang...with either Israel or Palestine being completely destroyed out of the picture. People are mad, levels of terrorism are high. Who knows what happens...but you know what? When a *real* terrorism act happens to Israel or the U.S., let's not call it terrorism anymore. We have to call what Israel is doing to Palestine terrorism before we call anything else by that foolish word...

And Spiderman, I didn't start any "mudslinging."

Spiderman:

I still think that the Israelis have been more open of cease-fires and it has been the Hamas who have been continually breaking them with suicide bombings (until shown otherwise).

Key word there, you "think." When are you going to stop thinking and start actually knowing? You got to *know*, not think. Know it.

Spiderman:

I will be willing to bet that there have been more suicide bombers than response with tanks and armored vehicles.

You're willing to "bet"? Uh, no. Why "bet" when you don't have to gamble? See, I don't have to say "I think..." or "I bet..." or anything like that anymore. Well, instead of taking a gamble, maybe you should check more resources?

 

[Spiderman]

Sorry, you're right, you didn't start any mudslinging, you guys just keep trading insults so I wanted to nip it.

Key word there, you "think." When are you going to stop thinking and start actually knowing? You got to *know*, not think. Know it.

You're willing to "bet"? Uh, no. Why "bet" when you don't have to gamble? See, I don't have to say "I think..." or "I bet..." or anything like that anymore. Well, instead of taking a gamble, maybe you should check more resources?

What, no one's willing to take up my bet?

I can't know because no one's helping me. I've checked out all the resources I can, which is why my opinion is the way it is. If someone else has something else to offer, go for it.

 

[Mr_Pestilence]

Hitler was not an aetheist. I don't know what label to apply to his beliefs, but they involved some type of "mystical" practices, along with lots of paganism and astrology.

Also, Hitler himself had jewish ancestry. How this affected his religion, I have no idea.

 

[Lotus Mox]

12 Conventional Lies

 

[Spiderman]

Interesting I guess, but no facts or resources to check on it or back it up.

 

[DÛke]

Question for Spiderman.

In this thread, I noticed that you're always interested in facts. That's hip dogg, but still...I must ask, if you were given the facts, would you still ask for facts to back up those damn things? I mean, when do you know when you're facing an absolute fact in order to not ask for the "facts"?

If you don't know the facts, than obviously, you gonna question everything else that is important to you; correct me if I'm wrong. Since you "don't know the facts," how would you know what is a fact, and what isn't? When do you stop questioning the validity or relativity of a source or of a "fact"? Who has to say it; what's is the deal? What would give you the right to say that something aint a fact if you don't even know what is and isn't a fact?

Do you just know or somethin' er what?

[This aint Duke, by the way; call me his mate, if you want.]

 

[Lotus Mox]

Spidey, since you're so interested this page contains some facts about the history of the Palestine-Israeli-conflict.