Is the CPA... dying?

[Zadok001]

YJ - First of all, the CPA was founded after Waylay's errata, on the basis that it was probably a "quick and dirty" fix, and not one that really fit with what needed to happen. (At the VERY least, the errata was wrong. Should have been "At the beginning of any player's upkeep, remove those tokens from the game" or something similar.) We basically formed because WotC was acting far too often in benefit of the tournament scene. Since then (actually, very quickly after we became visible), that's fallen off quite a bit.

Masques dropped the power level. Bannings almost ceased to be. Extended was smoothed out (though they keep banning the wrong fruggin' cards!), and everything started going quite well, in my eyes.

I think that's part of why the CPA goes quiet every now and then. We're winning. We're happy. What's to complain about except the thrice-damned overpowered and expensive rares that should be uncommon?

 

[Spiderman]

All the stuff you mentioned has to do with the tourney scene. So why wasn't this called Tourney Player's Alliance?

 

[Zadok001]

"We basically formed because WotC was acting far too often in benefit of the tournament scene."

Implying "and not on the behalf of the casual player, us."

 

[Spiderman]

Sorry, I misunderstood that sentence

You say "far too often", yet you only mention Waylay. From my rememberance of that era, 6th rules were also debated over, yet that didn't have to do with the tourney scene specific but just play issues.

So how else were they acting in the interests of tourney players and how did that affect "casual" players? I assume you're thinking that "casual" players still follow the Banned and Restricted Tourney Rules so are you thinking Academy and such?

Is the lack of bannings due to more balanced cards in general, or the tourney environment specifically? If it's the former, why aren't people here making more decks with the wider pool of cards?

 

[Mikeymike]

Yes, I've noticed the quiet also. In the 1st 3 forums are slow and more importantly (to me at least) so are the Deck and Single-Card-Strategy sections.

However, I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing per say, its just cyclical. We have nothing to complain about and idea generation is in a rut.

I think Gizmo touched on a big point. On the whole, our interests seem to be shifting towards competitive play. But how many of us know what the hell is really going on in the competitive scene? Not that many. There is a difference between being good at magic, knowing the card interactions, etc. and really knowing the environment, the local metagame, player tendencies, deck matchups, and such. Its a full time job. I think the majority of us know we could compete, but we don't have the time or the desire to really get in deep. I know I fall into this category, but I (like others here) still enjoy discussing both the Casual and Competitive aspects of Magic and will continue to do so.

Odyssey has PLENTY of interesting and powerful effects that have been included in the set almost specifically to make life interesting for casual players. It seems, however, that the Casual Players Alliance is no longer casual enough to care.

I unfortunately have to agree, there definitely is a lack of cool Casual-Odyssey ideas floating around (except about Verdant Succession which has gotten around the CPA like a bad case of the Flu). Long live Verdant Succession, dumbest green enchantment ever!

Istanbul, there definitely is a casual Magic, it is far from dead. It probably is the greater majority of the Magic players in the world. At my local WotC store we always get 4+ player games going, type anything. I feel for you that your local scene sounds much more cutt-throat. However, in regards to the online Magic community your statement is nearly dead on. Its the nature of the beast. Tourney players need tech, tech, tech and they need to stay on top of the ever-changing landscape. Casual players know that 3 months from now Aura Shards is still going to be a cool card and they aren't going to involve themselves in discussions of Memory Lapses' viability in the Neo-U/W builds. Casual-tech is nearly non-existent so you rarely see examples of it online.

Personally though, I really miss the extended conversations and awesome decklists displaying why Varchild's War-Riders is the coolest card ever printed.

 

[Spiderman]

I'm not so worried about Voting or Magic Issues, I kinda consider them sub-categories of Magic talk in general. It's the General, Decks, and Single Cards that should be rarin' to go.

And I don't think it's cyclical, unless you mean yearly. I've noticed for a while, at least since spring, that no new "talk" has been going around (concerning fun and "casual" stuff). The only thing that gets talked about in General are closings of other Magic websites, really. And spoiler stuff. Single Cards just lags. And Decks is probably 3/4 towards competitive.

 

[krichaiushii]

Well, I don't know what happened to my first response to this post, but let me summarize it.

Now that I am done with school and the Army, it has become difficult to find casual players. Between that and the pay cut, I have found little reason to stay current with the sets - not even glancing through the spoilers.

Every time I've been to my local WoTC store, my timing has been bad, resulting in Vampire players or a Pokemon tournament. Dream Wizards, my local game store, has expensive drafts and type 2 only mindsets - I went there once and felt the enthusiasm drain - quickly.

My attempts to get together with a certain nearby webslinger have so far proved abortive, though I will continue to try, if only for the priviledge of meeting Spiderman...

Even when I go home for visits, the old group (both for me and in age) rarely gets together, and then its just to visit or play hearts (doubledeck hearts, blood on the first trick is some good).

Circumstances - some my choice, some fate - have pretty much ended my Magicking. It gets tough to even post on the casual decks, as they now crop up as "Type 2 MP deck" which scuttles even my attempts at deck advice.

Maybe I will dredge up old posts, in an attempt to make things as once they were...

All told, those still in school generally have more time and an established circle of gaming friends. Moving to a new area means finding a new circle, which can be difficult if your job or town is not conducive to good gaming.

Did any of this make sense?

 

[Dune Echo]

... just one hiatus. I think there are a number of factors going on, and it's not just here.

1) 9/11 pretty much shot everyone's day. I have seen so many security memos at my work since that day it's really bothersome.

2) The sets are balanced for the most part towards creature battles. Combo is there and so is control. This is the most balanced I can remember it being in a very, very long time.

3) There have been no controversial cards made in a long time. There have been no bannings. There has been no errata.

4) Odyssey is the first set in a long time with a different flavor and feel, much like Legends to me. This makes me happy. This is what I have been asking for for a long time.

5) Economy. The economy is bad right now, people aren't being paid as much, it's harder to find jobs. People aren't spending on cards like they used to. People aren't stumbling over wacky combos either. Also, Christmas is coming. You're more likely to get a post from someone cracking a pack of Odyssey and seeing Zombie Infestation for the first time than someone looking over the same old cards.

6) Video games... Hear me out... There are 2 new game systems coming out shortly - Xbox and Gamecube. Those are pricey, I'm sure some people are saving their money.

7) Tourney scene. Right now it's the week before States. Everyone clams up and focuses on that sort of thing.

8) 5-Color Magic. The 5-Color Magic scene is kicking. You literally have 250 cards to decide upon and I'm telling you, my 5-Color deck has gone through 35 or more different cards in its list in the space of 2 months. There is nothing like bouncing Radiant's Dragoons 7 turns in a row to stall a beatdown deck. If any of you are getting the "dirty-tourney feel" (), give this format a try! I have had a lot of fun with it. 5-Color Magic really feels like the roots of Magic all over again.

9) Lack of support from the DCI (not R&D). Yes, this means I'm advocating regulating casual play, an oxymoron if I ever wrote one. People like to play by strong established rules, and supported formats feel accepted and worth trying. 5-Color picked up a strong following and people really are seeing it as fun because of the Magic Invitational. If the DCI started to support such formats (very unlikely), we probably would have people discussing here what cards rock in Peasant Magic for example and fun decks to play. Tournaments are a strong place for gathering players together.

10) Interest in Type 1. I've seen a strong call for reprints of all "good" cards for people to play Type 1 and get hold of strong cards instead of having to pay an arm and leg for them. There is more nostalgia than cash flow right now.

To 5-Color Players: Speak up, start posting your decks and discuss it here. I'll be posting mine shortly. Maybe we can generate interest here.

That's my 3.14159 (approximate value of pi) cents.

 

[Spiderman]

We're gonna meet one day, krichaiushii!

Dune: All good reasons, but :

1) Like I said, I've been noticing this trend before 9/11.

2-4) Why does controversy have to equal Magic talk? What about how cards can be used, or themes, or something?

5-6) this is probably true.

7) Again, tourney environment shouldn't affect the casual environment too much.

8-10) Those are good, I'd like to try 5-Color Magic.

All: Anyhoo, have you noticed that the CPA is pretty stagnant in terms of membership? We get the occasional new member but I can't think of ONE who has stayed and regularly participated, it's been so long. We just have the same old regulars.

 

[Dune Echo]

Originally posted by Spiderman
We're gonna meet one day, krichaiushii!

Dune: All good reasons, but :

1) Like I said, I've been noticing this trend before 9/11.

Yes, but I still think it's certainly increased what it is we are perceiving now.

2-4) Why does controversy have to equal Magic talk? What about how cards can be used, or themes, or something?

Because players like to argue... a lot, and about various and sundry things. Anyone is much more likely to just look at the Shadowmage Infiltrator and play than look at Waylay and try not make a sour face. I think things have genuinely reached a positive plateau in the tournament vs. casual battle and fun vs. broken cards. The is no one "deck to beat." There aren't any combo decks that absolutely rule the Type II format.

7) Again, tourney environment shouldn't affect the casual environment too much.

Shouldn't, but it does. Not to beat a dead horse, but just look at Waylay and the CPA as an example of how much the tournament scene does affect the casual environment. But it goes both ways too. Look at Type II now... This didn't just come from the tourney players.

8-10) Those are good, I'd like to try 5-Color Magic.

It's worth a shot. The most fun play I've seen against me so far is someone playing a Dauthi Mindripper with Fires of Yavimaya in play and then saccing the D.M. to make me discard 3 cards. Not a bad card in that instance. Also, where else are you going to find people arguing over whether or not to use Spite/Malice vs. Feast or Famine?

 

[Mikeymike]

I'm dying to try 5-Color myself but I need some mental preparation. It takes me 2+ hours to build a 60 card deck let alone a 5-Color deck. And I've got to find someone to play against.

However, I love that in 5C the simple-tech combos are unlimited, you can turn any card into a good card, and no matter how unlikely the gamestate may look you've always got a chance to pull that 1 card you need to turn the game around.

If you post decklists I'll comment and I might make some of my own.

 

[Spiderman]

Dune:

Shouldn't, but it does. Not to beat a dead horse, but just look at Waylay and the CPA as an example of how much the tournament scene does affect the casual environment. But it goes both ways too. Look at Type II now... This didn't just come from the tourney players.

Yeah, but my original thinking if you remember was that the ruling on Waylay shouldn't have affected the casual scene. I mean, casual players should have been playing with the card before the ruling. They weren't, and all of a sudden some tourney guy finds the loophole, and then everyone jumps on the bandwagon. And when the ruling came down, casual players were moaning and groaning when they shouldn't have been.

Yeah, I know tourney shouldn't affect the casual scene and that it does, but I think it's shortsightedness (for lack of a better word) and the perpetuated dependance on the part of casual players.

 

[Dune Echo]

The tourney scene is just a very visible set of rules everyone can refer to. I think that's the main reason it has had such an effect on the casual side of the field.

But also notice this, the decks today really remind me of the casual decks of 3 and 1/2 years ago... People playing creatures and trying not to build combo decks. I think that the tourney scene is starting to resemble a more casual scene than it has since Ice Age/MiViLight.

 

[Zadok001]

Which is great, IMHO!

 

[Mundungu]

I'm using so quiet time at work to catch up with the recent events.

Magic is also for me in a quiet phase. As TheOrrg ( I think it was him) put it, many of the older posters (like me) have evolved, started working, or moved on to other things and so on.

Two years is a long time.

Anyhow, to the point.

I think that the mentality of the Magic community has indeed much shifted toward competitive play, which is in fact a success for WotC. Friday Night Magic and the posibility for random scrubs to "taste" competitive play has certainly had a lot of influence.

I agree that it is extremly difficult to find games "for fun" and that Magic is now much more competitive. Together with the ease of use of internet resources, creativity is left aside and most players just look at what the "pros" are doing.

Also, the level of Masques especially left very little room for creativity. It all came down to efficiency. Invasion was a little bit better, with more varied options and open field, but not much.

Although I havent seen a lot of Odissey cards yet, I also have a feeling that it has a somewhat different flair and more possibilities.
I think that at the latest when the second expansions rolls around more attention will be geared toward Odissey block, and that cerativity will reappear.

But that is only my 2 cents.

I think the CPA isnt dying, nor is it going astray of its purpose. It is just settling down, for the moment.

 

[Spiderman]

I agree that two years is a long time for the old-timers; I stopped a while ago and recently started again. But like I said before, no one's replacing them. Our "death" (or quit) rate is greater than our "birth" (or playing) rate, so it seems...

 

[Rando]

Originally posted by Mundungu
I agree that it is extremly difficult to find games "for fun" and that Magic is now much more competitive.

Don't know about anyone else, but I find competative Magic to be very much fun.

Although I have no delusions of ever being a "pro" player, I still attend a couple PTQ's a month, always go States and all the pre-releases, and never miss a local tournament. I think it's great.

I also think playing a Thalid/LordOfThePit deck at home on the coffee table against my wife's "Uber-Pheonix" deck to be an equal amount of fun.

My point, if I even have one, is that I find playing to be fun, and it does not matter where the game might be.

Now, what does this have to do with the conversation at hand, you know, the one I have up until this point ignored? Well, I'm not sure, but I think it has something to do with the fact that, baring a few of us, we either did or do enjoy playing the game of Magic. That's who started this orginization, right? People that liked to play?

Then why does it matter if the Magic we talk about here is competative? It is a game of winners and losers after all, so that makes it inherently competative, whether you're at home with Kobolds and Killer Bees or in a rented hotel room with 100 other guys and a Morphling each.

I am proof that a casual player can be, or try to be, competative. And why not? I do not make my living at this game, and I have no asperations to. Therefore, I am not a "pro", and by defalt "casual".

So, what I think I'm trying to say, maybe, because I've only been at work for 1/2 an hour and have only had 1/2 a cup of coffee, is that you should not use the type of Magic conversation going on around here as evidence that the site is dieing. You should be glad that there are still enough people here that enjoy the game enough to talk about it at all.

"Strugling Tournment Players Aliance" huh? Oh well, until those players make the big time, they're still casual players to me.

or something like that.

anyone seen the Popeye cartoon where he is Sinbad? It's cool. The old Popeye toons kick ass.

 

[Spiderman]

So, what I think I'm trying to say, maybe, because I've only been at work for 1/2 an hour and have only had 1/2 a cup of coffee, is that you should not use the type of Magic conversation going on around here as evidence that the site is dieing. You should be glad that there are still enough people here that enjoy the game enough to talk about it at all.

My point was that there wasn't ANY Magic talk going on, tourney or not. People were saying the tourney scene is quiet, everyone's happy, etc., which may be a reason for the lack of tourney talk. But the CASUAL talk shouldn't be at a standstill either.

 

[FoundationOfRancor]

You guys should all come to Okemos, Michigan. Its great here.

It's the absolute basis of casul play, it's so much fun. None of us care about winning...at all. Yet all of us have been playing magic for about 3 years, and were very good.

Back on topic, I think the CPA is not dying exactly, but in a state of hibernation. It's been that way for quite some time. It might wake up again, it might not. That all depends on us.

 

[Gizmo]

My point was that there wasn't ANY Magic talk going on, tourney or not. People were saying the tourney scene is quiet, everyone's happy, etc., which may be a reason for the lack of tourney talk.

If you want to get advice about tournament magic you dont come to the CPA - theres very few people here capable of offering good advice. To be honest I`m not sure where you go, the situation appears to be the same everywhere - the volume/noise ratio is low on all BBS/channels you can visit.

Go to Brainburst and theres maybe only four or five people making rational comments. Go to #Apprentice on Mirc and depending on whose online you could run into four or five people giving five-star advice, or four or five people talking complete nonsense, and unless you are good you won`t be able to tell the difference.

What would get this place shifting would be people deciding to build decks around the wierd cards in Odyssey. Whether you are a 5-colour, a struggling tournament, a casual, or a Choc-Mocha kind of player the people around here know how to innovate and evolve deck designs. We AREN`T a population of sheep, here at the CPA. If interesting designs come up I think we`d throw our two cents worth in.
Nobody seems to be interested in building those decks though.

I think a long long time ago, on a similar debate about what 'fun decks' were, I made the distinction between decks that weren`t really fun just suboptimal versions of good decks, and actual 'fun' decks. I think that distinction still holds, and its been a long long time since real fun decks were discussed in any great numbers.