Interesting rant article worth reading...

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by Notepad, Jun 23, 2005.

  1. Notepad Seffy Sefro

    An interesting article concerning "our most honorable" Hall of Fame:

    I completely agree with Chad on this one. If Long gets on, looks like everyone should just become rampant cheater badguys, all WWE style and make it to the top that way.
  2. Crackdown New Member

    Rosewater is out of the mainstream on this one. Mike Long might have been a colorful character, but golf also has it's colorful characters and doesn't appear to be worse for enforcing stiff rules requirements.

    This is not unlike steroids in sports. The honest players had to compete on an uneven field. Who can say how well a cheater would have performed had they been honest. Card cheats have been around a long time, but they're not usually rewarded with accolades.
  3. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    I'm awfully disappointed in Mark Rosewater. If he wants to honor Long for his "contributions" to the game, he should start up a Hall of Shame.
  4. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    As sent to one Mr. Mark Rosewater.

    Mr. Rosewater,

    I have played Magic: The Gathering for a very long time now. I have been playing almost since its inception; I was a week too late to buy Arabian Nights boosters, but I've been a regular customer ever since. I have given everything to this game; my apartment is littered with commons that may never again see the light of day, the #1 thing that always stays in my backpack is my trade binder, and I have enough war stories from multiplayer games, tournaments, and other such things to fill up an entire e-mail of my own.

    That's not the only way in which Magic has influenced my life. I was trading online long before there was a MOTL, in I far predate the Casual Players Alliance, though I am a moderator there (Istanbul) and am a regular contributor to MTG Salvation (same name). I wrote the prize-winning tutorial on how to play Magic (intended for someone who was searching the web for magic tricks and just sort of stumbled across the site) for the now-defunct I have organized tournaments in local game shops, I have organized casual get-togethers in which multiplayer games took place that were so large that you could end your turn, stand up, walk to the store, buy a drink, and return before your turn came around again.

    And that's not even all for online. I was one of the original people in the Magic Online beta. I cheered when each and every Odyssey card got coded in, I was present for the Onslaught pre-release. I snickered to myself when Chuck's Virtual party (you know, the one to make up for all the crashes) crashed, I stared slack-jawed as the price of a Pernicious Deed hit the triple-digits in dollars.

    I've been there. Black Summer, ProsBloom, blinding speed in Tempest and Urza block, the parachute that was Masques block, and the slow recovery of Magic that Invasion, Odyssey, Onslaught, and yes, even Mirrodin block represented. I've stood by Magic through its highs and its lows, played combo and control and aggro and loved all three of them, gone to conventions to play, discussed the game with people who didn't even know what Magic was. I've taught countless people to play the game - yes, I was a Guru - and bought box after box of product. I even collect Kezzerdrixes - 119 of the little fellas and counting.

    So this is the part where you wonder what the heck I'm getting at. (Actually, that probably came quite a while ago, but bear with me.) This e-mail is in regards to the latest article in which Mike Long is nominated - yes, even being nominated is enough - for Hall of Fame status.

    I am WOUNDED to the core, Mr. Rosewater. It cuts me to the quick to know that the game I love, the game I've dedicated more than a decade of my life to, has been reduced to this. Are we to welcome with open arms as one of the greatest people ever to play the game a man who might never have even gotten that far if he hadn't cheated? Let me say that again: CHEATED. There can be no denial that Mike Long was a good player, but if he had never cheated, or if he had been caught and enough action had been taken soon enough, he might never have gotten to where he did.

    Was Mike Long influential? Oh, yes. Very much so. Mike Long was the first person to teach me that professional play came down to who could cheat the most without getting caught. He taught me that professional players could and would do anything, absolutely *anything* to win, including but not limited to cheating, harassment, and any of a number of other depsicable acts, and that Wizards of the Coast would politely turn their heads and just mutter under their breath, "Yeah, but look at the publicity he's generating!". Mike Long showed me that professional Magic play was not for me; that it was a cutthroat, no-fun, nasty version of Magic where you did whatever it took to win, bar none.

    Is that the kind of person you want to commemorate in the Hall of Fame? Do you really want the first inductee to the Hall of Fame to be the man who forever soiled the concept of professional Magic: The Gathering play with subterfuge, chicanery, and other such behavior? In any other sport, they sure as heck don't reward you for cheating. In the Olympics, if they find out that you've been doing drugs, guess what? Those gold medals you won? GONE. In chess, if your opponent turns around and you switch the position of two pieces? You just forfeited the match. Mr. Rosewater, even CHILDREN...young children, playing on a playground...know that cheating is wrong and shouldn't be rewarded. Take a child to his peers and tell him to cheat, and you can count the minutes until he comes back crying because nobody will play with him anymore. Cheating removes the honor and honesty from a sport. It should never be celebrated or welcomed, and it should certainly never earn you a spot among the highest ranks of a sport's players! I consider cheating to be a cardinal sin, Mr. Rosewater. Akin to murder, if you like; rather than destroying a life, you've destroyed a game. And since the game, and the love of the same, is what we're talking about here...isn't that what the most relevant criteria should be?

    The fact that Mike Long is even being considered seriously, truly hurts my feelings, Mr. Rosewater. It says a lot about Wizards of the Coast as a company that you would consider someone who has dishonored the game for its highest accolade. I urge you - I PLEAD with you - change your mind, don't further erode what respect I still have for Wizards of the Coast as a company.

    Don't turn the Hall of Fame into a joke. Do the right thing.
  5. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    What an extraordinary and well-written letter.

    Well, if Long does manage to garner an induction, perhaps WotC can resurrect the old "Be Like Mike" slogan. With a new twist of course.
  6. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Will there still be Gatorade? :D

    Seriously though, that's a good letter.
  7. orgg Administrator

    Mike Long is an opprotunistic and calm faced bastard.

    If you ever meet his (short) nonvirtual representation, he's genial, calm, and self-effacting. Then he'll try to sell you something that seems like a good deal. Currently, he's selling 'be better at Magic' DVDs. Previously, he was trying to get a huge e-bay rating by giving 'amazing deals.' He pushes the rules... and in some places, probably broke them.

    I also disagree in Mike Long's nomination. I do, however, understand why. Ever seen the video of him playing his Pro's Bloom deck? It's entertaining. Magic still wants to be on ESPN2 once again, and camera friendly people are one thing that will help that.
  8. Reverend Love New Member

  9. evan d New Member

    If he didn't would he be any bit as succesful?
  10. DarthFerret Evil Sith Weasel

    good question there evan_d. Maybe that is the real issue. If he played and acted honestly, would he still be up for consideration? Would he have made a Pro Tour?

    I know very little about any of this. I have not been to a tournament in about 8 years. I have never made it to any conventions. I have played maybe 10 games of Arena League. I have never done MOL or any other thing, althoug I did download apprentice, but I have not actually played it.

    However, I was a BETA - tester for the actual game itself. It was around the end of my Freshman year at college. All we had for rules, was a little booklet that came in the starter boxes, of which we understood very little. We helped define certain power limits, and even came up with a couple of the nicknames...(Tim for one).

    I have, since then, pretty much played causually. Does the Hall of Fame thing affect me? Probably not. Do I have an opinion? As a matter of fact I do. When I catch my opponent cheating, I have only one solution. I pick up my deck, and walk away. There is no, and has never been any room in the game for that kind of nonsense. Maybe it is because we are all pretty much casual players, and think the same way, but I think just about everyone of us agrees with this.

    Ok, that was my 2 cents.
  11. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I think so, but it's not as though that makes up for anything...
  12. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Yes. Mike Long would have been successful if he hadn't cheated. He is a skilled player, let there be no doubt about that.


    1) We'll never know how successful he would have been, had he been honest.
    2) The fact that he preferred success over ethics means that both are irrelevant.


    I was talking to someone about this on MTG Salvation. EvilDuck, he calls himself. And he said,

    I think it's the best expression of my viewpoint that I replied,

    And that's all I have to say about that.
  13. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Great letter Isty...

    But before I pass judgement, I'd like to see the total correspondence where Mark said the things that Chad says he did, to make sure nothing was taken out of context (I assume it was private emails or something).
  14. EricBess Active Member

    I have a different take on this...I've actually met Mike Long and seen him play.

    I'm not going to claim he didn't cheat. He did and he did his penance for it. He is not the type of oportunist that will take advantage of a situation. He's a strong advocate of playing it fair and, in my opinion, has learned from his mistakes.

    Having said that, he is simply an amazing player. Mike Long more than anyone else is single-handedly responsible for turning Magic into a mental game. I've seen how he can take a no-win situation and, with a couple of well-considered words, convince his opponent to make the one play that would actually give Mike a chance at winning. That's not bending rules. Call that unethical, but you can't call it cheating.

    There is no question in my mind that Mike Long belongs in the hall of fame. I do agree that, given his past, he may not be the best choice for the first inductee.
  15. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Oh, he cheated, and he did his penance for it. Then I trust he got several years of suspension. Then at least many of his ill-gotten gains were stripped from him, right?
    ...still no? Surely, he at least wasn't allowed to profit from all the misdeeds he undertook to get where he was.
    ...oh, wait. That's right. He didn't, they weren't, and he was. He may have seemed penitent - the best cheaters/liars usually do - but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if he were snickering on the inside about how gullible you were to believe him.

    I'm not calling mindgames cheating. They may make him a jerk, but they don't make him a cheater. And sometimes, being a jerk IS part of the game. (Not a very welcome part, but a part nonetheless.)
    Holding cards in your lap, things like that...that makes him a cheater.

    Oh, he belongs in the Hall of Fame, all right. I'm just not saying WHICH ONE.
  16. Notepad Seffy Sefro

    Damn good article, Istanbul! You made the case a lot better than I've seen others do. It looks like Maro won't be swayed by such good points, though, as his articles seem to show how stubborn he is on the idea of infamous faces.

    Oh, and Spidey (and anyone else who wants to see what set this off) here are Maro's articles on the topic:

    Here is the first article by Rosewater where he talks about his votes. If there is a case to be made in favor of Long, it would be here, and it falls into the argument for celebrities in Magic being more important than having ethics(something I gotta say I totally disagree with).

    This week he went on to defend his perspective on the whole "we need bad guys in Magic." (Yeah, in stories and entertainment you need bad guys...duh. But is the Hall of Fame really so much about villany?)
  17. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Ooo, I actually forgot I was off for two weeks and there were two weeks of articles at magicthegathering to read. Oops.

    I'll get to it. Thanks.
  18. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Okay, I caught up with all of the past articles. And I have to say that I admire Mark for his convictions and his reasonings.

    Simply put, which I think a lot of people are missing (and as he said may have been his fault the first time around, but not in subsequent articles), is that the ballot is his own personal opinion and not that of Wizards. As such, he's certainly entitled to who he thinks belongs in the Hall of Fame and who doesn't.

    Blast him if you want, but don't make the mistake of entangling his opinion with that of Wizards.
  19. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    After reading the mega-thread at the forums, I've come to respectfully disagree with Mark Rosewater's decision. Lots of disagreement...plenty of respect too.

    All in all, it seems quite unlikely that Long will be inducted this go-round. A number of members of the voting panel have made it known that they have no intention of ever voting for Mike Long for the HoF.
  20. jorael Craptacular!

    I find it kind of amusing. This whole Hall of Fame looks very american to me. I certainly could care less and I think this is true for most players in the Netherlands and perhaps Europe.

    Mike Long makes the HoF voting really interesting. The game has a history and it appears it has hero's and villains. I don't care whether he gets in or not, it maked the debate much more real. I think it is ok if the HoF includes a villain.

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