If you have some time and are up for a challenge..

Discussion in 'Casual Decks/Variants/Etc' started by Modus Pwnens, Mar 10, 2009.

  1. BigBlue Magic Jones

    What about a UB reanimator using looters to drop the fatties - that would seem better.

    I love the Library - and I can see how it would work, but I do see Oversoul's point as well...

    Or is there something in G which is integral?
  2. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Well, there's Survival, but it was pretty far down in his pick order and seems like it would be someone's first or second pick. Well, we have the benefit of hindsight because he already said someone snagged it early on, but it seems like such a powerhouse for this sort of format...
  3. BigBlue Magic Jones

    So, G is mostly in there for Survival of the Fittest, Deed, and Birds/Elves?

    I guess those are solid...

    My BG reanimator deck isn't really a reanimator deck - other than it includes Life/Death...

    It's mostly Spiritmongers, mana elves, Blastoderm, and Deed. I've never turned it into anything more, but I think it would work really well with the Wurms from your Wurm deck and Recurring Nightmare if I had any...
  4. Modus Pwnens Eligible for User Title

    Yeah, I definately underestimated people's preferences, and indeed survival was a first pick, just like recurring nightmare. While discarding with the library is definitely suboptimal, the tempoloss that was mentioned is absolutely irrelevant when compared to the insane cardadvantage. I've won games with monowhite weenie where I went turn 2 scroll rack, turn 3 rack for 7, play library and end my turn.
    Regardless of your deck, and active library will almost win you every single game. My guess for the Singleton draft is that the cube is less powerful (no P9), and this kind of cardadvantage is unmatched..

    The green in my list was primary for the Survival/Genesis synergy..
  5. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    The card advantage is only insane in the long term. Tempo is the whole reason Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Mana Vault, Dark Ritual, and Lotus Petal are good cards.

    You were playing Library in an aggro deck? And you held back, purposely putting yourself at a tempo advantage to keep an active Library? I mean, I'm sure it's quite possible to win doing that, especially if you're using really good cards like Library and your opponents aren't (or if you're a better deckbuilder than they are or if they're bad players or if any number of other things).

    Maybe I should give an example. Okay, here's a Top 8 decklist from a Legacy tournament just last month. I'd say it's a fairly normal White Weenie deck in the format.

    2x Celestial Crusader
    2x Icatian Javelineers
    3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    3x Jotun Grunt
    4x Mother of Runes
    4x Savannah Lions
    2x Serra Avenger
    4x Soltari Priest
    3x True Believer
    1x Whipcorder
    4x Enlightened Tutor
    1x Aura of Silence
    3x Crusade
    1x Runed Halo
    1x Story Circle
    1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
    1x Pithing Needle
    1x Umezawa's Jitte
    1x Ancient Den
    4x Flagstones of Trokair
    3x Flooded Strand
    6x Plains
    1x Tundra
    4x Windswept Heath
    Sideboard:
    1x Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
    1x J├Âtun Grunt
    1x Meddling Mage
    1x Serra Avenger
    1x True Believer
    3x Eye for an Eye
    1x Absolute Law
    1x Runed Halo
    3x AEther Vial
    1x Uezawa's Jitte

    Now then, that's the sort of thing I think of when I think of White Weenie. Maybe not as many singletons, but it's the same idea, anyway. Library is banned in this format, but how would this deck be improved by it? Sure, it could forgo playing a creature to keep a full hand, but then what? It doesn't have draw spells. It's stuck constantly giving up tempo advantage to gain card advantage. That would be fine if it were supposed to be a slow deck, but when this deck sacrifices speed, the control deck it's up against has plenty of time to build up resources, gaining a stranglehold the more turns go by.

    Library is legal in Vintage. In my experience, the decks that run it there are almost invariably control decks (I add "almost" because I'm sure there's some exception to the rule, although I don't know what it might be), and not even all of those do it. There are simply better cards to use most of the time. Basically, it's Mana Drain decks, and only some of them, that are using Library. It makes sense because these decks like to sit on their cards. Most other decks, like Oath, Shop decks, Dark Ritual fueled combo, and such have no need for Library. Look at the statistics. Most Vintage decks just aren't using Library, even though deckbuilders could if they wanted to. I just checked a top 8 from a recent tournament. One Ichorid, one monored, one Dark Ritual storm combo, one "Fish" (U/W aggro control in this case), one Drainless Tezzeret deck, and three Mana Drain decks (one Bomberman and two Tezzeret). Only one of the decks, one of the Tezzeret builds, had Library.

    It's still a good card and will always be one of the most iconic lands in the game, but it just isn't something every deck wants and it does not always win games.
  6. Modus Pwnens Eligible for User Title

    Wahey, I think we're talking about different formats now ;)
    I'm still talking about the Cube, which is some sort of Eternal Limited format. I completely agree that Library is a lot less good in constructed than it is in limited. Although I have played a powered cube once as well, and Library got me to an easy 3-0 record there as well, and that wasn't because I'm an awesome player ;)

    In a white weenie limited deck, you basically play your dudes a turn later, so the tempoloss is small, but drawing an extra card/turn is just incredible..
  7. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Well, looking at the cube now, a lot of the best cards in the game are missing. Even among lands, there's no Academy, no Workshop, no fetchlands. The two strongest picks in that section are definitely Strip Mine and Library.
  8. Modus Pwnens Eligible for User Title

    There are fetchlands, but workshop and academy would put the tinker deck over the top, it's already extremely powerful as it is. Remember the owner of the cube has to buy/trade those cards as well, and they aren't cheap (well, workshop isn't).
    The choice for leaving out the P9 are both financial and because we believe the cube is just as much fun as it is now. Library was a recent addition (which I was opposed to, since I believe it's indeed more powerful than perhaps is wished for).
    It's not a format in which you play the most powerful cards, it's supposed to be a limited format that gives you a very diverse choice of strategy, and that guarantees a great time every time you play :D
  9. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    Awesome box. If it wasn't for the money involved I'd make a box myself. Between me and a friend of mine I think I'd already have half a box. This guy even has 7 out of P9 lying around.

    Let me know if you plan to draft on a friday :cool:

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