Hall of Shame Nominations: Tempest

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by BigBlue, Mar 24, 2009.

  1. BigBlue Magic Jones

    Seeing as this set should be fresh on ByoS players minds...

    Abandon Hope
    Advance Scout
    Altar of Dementia
    Ancient Runes
    Ancient Tomb
    Angelic Protector
    Apes of Rath
    Armor Sliver
    Armored Pegasus
    Avenging Angel
    Barbed Sliver
    Bayou Dragonfly
    Bellowing Fiend
    Benthic Behemoth
    Blood Frenzy
    Blood Pet
    Booby Trap
    Bottle Gnomes
    Bounty Hunter
    Broken Fall
    Caldera Lake
    Canopy Spider
    Canyon Drake
    Canyon Wildcat
    Chaotic Goo
    Charging Rhino
    Cinder Marsh
    Circle of Protection: Black
    Circle of Protection: Blue
    Circle of Protection: Green
    Circle of Protection: Red
    Circle of Protection: Shadow
    Circle of Protection: White
    Clergy en-Vec
    Clot Sliver
    Cloudchaser Eagle
    Coffin Queen
    Coiled Tinviper
    Cold Storage
    Commander Greven il-Vec
    Corpse Dance
    Crazed Armodon
    Crown of Flames
    Cursed Scroll
    Dark Banishing
    Dark Ritual
    Darkling Stalker
    Dauthi Embrace
    Dauthi Ghoul
    Dauthi Horror
    Dauthi Marauder
    Dauthi Mercenary
    Dauthi Mindripper
    Dauthi Slayer
    Death Pits of Rath
    Diabolic Edict
    Dirtcowl Wurm
    Disturbed Burial
    Dread of Night
    Dream Cache
    Dregs of Sorrow
    Echo Chamber
    Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
    Eladamri's Vineyard
    Elite Javelineer
    Elven Warhounds
    Elvish Fury
    Emerald Medallion
    Emmessi Tome
    Endless Scream
    Enraging Licid
    Ertai's Meddling
    Escaped Shapeshifter
    Essence Bottle
    Evincar's Justice
    Fevered Convulsions
    Field of Souls
    Fighting Drake
    Flailing Drake
    Flickering Ward
    Flowstone Giant
    Flowstone Salamander
    Flowstone Sculpture
    Flowstone Wyvern
    Fool's Tome
    Frog Tongue
    Fugitive Druid
    Furnace of Rath
    Gaseous Form
    Gerrard's Battle Cry
    Ghost Town
    Giant Crab
    Giant Strength
    Goblin Bombardment
    Hand to Hand
    Hanna's Custody
    Heart Sliver
    Heartwood Dryad
    Heartwood Giant
    Heartwood Treefolk
    Helm of Possession
    Hero's Resolve
    Horned Sliver
    Horned Turtle
    Imps' Taunt
    Jackal Pup
    Jet Medallion
    Jinxed Idol
    Knight of Dawn
    Knight of Dusk
    Leeching Licid
    Legacy's Allure
    Light of Day
    Lightning Blast
    Lightning Elemental
    Living Death
    Lotus Petal
    Lowland Giant
    Maddening Imp
    Magnetic Web
    Mana Severance
    Manta Riders
    Marble Titan
    Marsh Lurker
    Master Decoy
    Maze of Shadows
    Metallic Sliver
    Mindwhip Sliver
    Minion of the Wastes
    Mirri's Guile
    Mnemonic Sliver
    Mogg Cannon
    Mogg Conscripts
    Mogg Fanatic
    Mogg Hollows
    Mogg Raider
    Mogg Squad
    Mongrel Pack
    Mounted Archers
    Muscle Sliver
    Natural Spring
    Nature's Revolt
    Needle Storm
    No Quarter
    Nurturing Licid
    Oracle en-Vec
    Orim, Samite Healer
    Orim's Prayer
    Patchwork Gnomes
    Pearl Medallion
    Pegasus Refuge
    Phyrexian Grimoire
    Phyrexian Hulk
    Phyrexian Splicer
    Pincher Beetles
    Pine Barrens
    Pit Imp
    Power Sink
    Puppet Strings
    Quickening Licid
    Rain of Tears
    Rampant Growth
    Ranger en-Vec
    Rathi Dragon
    Rats of Rath
    Reality Anchor
    Reckless Spite
    Reflecting Pool
    Renegade Warlord
    Rolling Thunder
    Root Maze
    Rootbreaker Wurm
    Rootwater Depths
    Rootwater Diver
    Rootwater Hunter
    Rootwater Matriarch
    Rootwater Shaman
    Ruby Medallion
    Sacred Guide
    Sadistic Glee
    Salt Flats
    Sandstone Warrior
    Sapphire Medallion
    Scalding Tongs
    Scorched Earth
    Screeching Harpy
    Scroll Rack
    Sea Monster
    Searing Touch
    Seeker of Skybreak
    Segmented Wurm
    Selenia, Dark Angel
    Serene Offering
    Servant of Volrath
    Shadow Rift
    Shimmering Wings
    Sky Spirit
    Skyshroud Condor
    Skyshroud Elf
    Skyshroud Forest
    Skyshroud Ranger
    Skyshroud Troll
    Skyshroud Vampire
    Soltari Crusader
    Soltari Emissary
    Soltari Foot Soldier
    Soltari Guerrillas
    Soltari Lancer
    Soltari Monk
    Soltari Priest
    Soltari Trooper
    Spell Blast
    Spike Drone
    Spinal Graft
    Spirit Mirror
    Spontaneous Combustion
    Squee's Toy
    Stalking Stones
    Starke of Rath
    Static Orb
    Staunch Defenders
    Steal Enchantment
    Stinging Licid
    Stone Rain
    Storm Front
    Sudden Impact
    Tahngarth's Rage
    Talon Sliver
    Thalakos Dreamsower
    Thalakos Lowlands
    Thalakos Mistfolk
    Thalakos Seer
    Thalakos Sentry
    Time Ebb
    Time Warp
    Tooth and Claw
    Torture Chamber
    Tradewind Rider
    Trained Armodon
    Trumpeting Armodon
    Unstable Shapeshifter
    Vec Townships
    Verdant Force
    Vhati il-Dal
    Volrath's Curse
    Wall of Diffusion
    Whim of Volrath
    Whispers of the Muse
    Wild Wurm
    Wind Dancer
    Wind Drake
    Winds of Rath
    Winged Sliver
    Winter's Grasp
    Wood Sage
    Worthy Cause

    Let's go through April Fools Day for nominations.
  2. BigBlue Magic Jones

    Boy, this is a tough nomination... By the time Tempest rolled around they had started making pretty decent cards...

    I'm going to go with Torture Chamber - If you want to kill a 1/1 every turn, it's adequate...

    Otherwise, you're taking damage to have it sit around with pain counters.

    I almost went with Kezzerdrix - but with White, you can negate the damage w/ a Spirit Link rather nicely...
  3. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    Starke of Rath is pretty bad. I remember pulling him a few times and being very upset. Sure, he can kill creatures and artifacts, if you use him, then you've paid the mana to give your opponent to do the same thing. Pretty bad by my standard.

    Ransac, cpa trash man
  4. Shabbaman insert avatar here

    Mogg Squad is pretty terrible. You can't play it in a deck with creatures or against a deck with creatures. You can only play it in a control deck against another control deck, but in that case it's in the wrong color. And it lacks evasion or any other useful ability, so even for a control deck it's a poor choice.
  5. Melkor Well-Known Member

    Actually, several good options in my opinion, a lot of them Red
  6. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    BigBlue brought up Torture Chamber, which I forgot about because it really is pretty bad. You don't need to be killing 1/1's with it, though. If your opponent it playing Dauthi creatures, being able to cheaply and repeatedly take them out is really helpful. I'd prefer other cards to do it, but since those guys often have a toughness of two or less, Torture Chamber works. I don't understand why this card needs to damage you. It seems like it would be a semi-viable and ultimately forgettable card even if the counters never hurt you.

    Starke doesn't strike me as bad at all. Sure if you and your opponent play a game of send him back and forth, it's killing equal amounts of your stuff and his stuff, but that would be dumb. Many opponents would never want to use Starke in the first place, because their own creatures are too valuable. So they're stuck with a chump blocker or something and you got to destroy their most threatening artifact or creature. You could also kill him after passing him, preferably using something that doesn't give you card disadvantage, which red can totally do, but even if you waste a spell killing him, you still got a nice targeted removal out of the deal. Not amazing, but not the worst card in the set either.

    Mogg Squad is a great nomination. It's a 0/0 creature in any realistic situation, making it arguably worse than Wood Elemental (but at least it doesn't kill your lands).

    I thought about some other really bad cards in this set. Segmented Wurm is a 5/5 for 3RG and your opponent can easily make it smaller just by targeting it. In contrast, Shivan Wurm costs the same, is a 7/7 trampler with gating as the only drawback, and gating is usually exploited so that it's actually to your advantage. That, gentlemen, is how you do a red/green creature. I don't know what they were thinking with Segmented Wurm.

    Excavator can make a creature temporarily unblockable, which seems nice, but you lose a land and your opponent has to be using that same type of land. Simply not worth it.

    In the past, I have on occasion used the card Catalog. It's mediocre. I've never thought to myself, "if only I had a reusable version for a bit more mana." If I had, I would probably have thought that making an artifact version cost more than 3 would make it too crappy to use and making its activated ability cost more than 3 (in addition to tapping) would be out of the question. Behold: Emmessi Tome. 4 mana to play and 5 mana (in addition to tapping) for its activated ability. Sorry, but I don't hate myself enough to ever use this in any format.

    But I don't think any of those cards are quite as bad as Mogg Squad. Even if they were, Mogg Squad gets bonus points for being such a slap in the face. It's a goblin, making it associated with decks that play several creatures. It's a 3/3 for 1R, just like Mogg Flunkies, which goblin decks love. But it requires you not to use other creatures, because even two other creatures in play make it a regular old 1/1. And you can't use it like Steel Golem because if your opponent uses creatures, it still dies or shrinks down to worthlessness. Mogg Squad is a card that pretends it could be good, then blocks off all possible options to ever using it in a deck.

    I do think there is one card in this set that can rival Mogg Squad for sheer disappointment, and so I nominate Duplicity. I love Parallel Thoughts. And before I ever discovered it, I used the inferior artifact version, Mangara's Tome, all the time. Duplicity manages to look like it's in the same category as those cards, but taunts you at every turn. It only gets the top five cards of your library, so you're not choosing anything. Well, that's bad. Wait, there's more. You don't get to look at the cards. They're face-down. They could be absolutely useless for your purposes, but you have no way of knowing. You have to wait until your upkeep to switch your hand with the cards under Duplicity. No emptying your hand and then getting a new one right away like you might with Memory Jar. You have to wait until your upkeep. And then for some reason, regardless of whether you make this ill-advised switch, you're discarding a card from your hand at the end of your turn. Why? That last one just kills me. At the very least you could play this expensive enchantment and leave it alone until you feel like using it, but now if you do that, your hand it bleeding cards as long as Duplicity is in play. Why would they take such a cool concept and bog it down with stipulations until it's useless?
  7. BigBlue Magic Jones

    I think the answer to that lies in playtesting.

    When they originate a card - it doesn't have all these wierd drawbacks. But, if someone breaks it while playtesting it - I think that's when they start turning it into a bad card...

    That said... How do cards like Masticore NOT end up with worse drawbacks?
  8. Melkor Well-Known Member

    I really hate Deadshot and Thumbscrews. They both kill me as Rares. I just wish Deadshot could have been an instant, would it really have been so overpowered? It would still be unusable in Constructed but at least it would be semi-Rare level in limited. I think I will nominate Thumbscrews though. It just doesn't really do anything. It doesn't go in any decks. It doesn't do something weird that just ends up not working. It is just weak and it was weak when they made it and it can never become anything but weak.
  9. BigBlue Magic Jones

    Last Call...

    So far we have:

    Duplicity - Oversoul
    Mogg Squad - Shabbaman
    Starke of Rath - Ransac
    Thumbscrews - Melkor
    Torture Chamber - BigBlue
  10. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I've gotta say, I think Tempest is one of my favorite sets - it's just pretty well-balanced and has lots of good spells and creatures and stuff. So I can't really see a Hall of Shame card in here for me...
  11. Melkor Well-Known Member

    Really? I like Tempest but I think there are several really bad Rares and I remember getting several of them in packs back when I was still buying cards.
  12. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Yeah, Tempest is a great set and one of my favorites, no doubt. But it has some absolute junk.
  13. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    <shrug> I just glanced through the rares. None are absolute junk; all have a niche where a deck can be built around them. None are absolutely *totally* useless, as in deserving of a "Hall of Shame".
  14. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I find Duplicity unplayable. I know I also found Malignant Growth to be even worse and BigBlue disagreed. Whatever. You wouldn't use it in a deck.

    So from you're saying, you ignored what should probably be the front-runner because it's not a rare? Or do you think Mogg Squad is also a niche card? I mean, if you have some argument that Mogg Squad fits into some deck, please tell us. I was considering voting for it instead of my own nomination, but if someone has ever actually used Mogg Squad successfully, I want to know about it.
  15. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    With Duplicity, I can see it being used as a way to replace your hand - you just need that artifact that lets you sac one of your permanents to get rid of Duplicity right after.

    Or if you have an infinite combo and you got your deck down to the necessary cards (perhaps with that deck-thinning spell(s)), you can draw into it.

    It's not unplayable. You probably aren't using your imagination.

    Malignant Growth - you just prevent the dmg in some way to yourself and use either Black Vise type effects or Sudden Impact effects to hurt your opponent. And maybe "play-one-spell-a-turn" so he can't take advantage of the extra cards while you use Seismic Assault-type effects (or discard cards for effects) to help you get around it. And/or reanimator.

    Mogg Squad is a niche card; you just play creature-removal to make sure it's the only creature. If you want to know who's used it successfully, you'll probably do better asking on a site with more than 10 active members.

    So no, I'm not ignoring the "front-runner" because it's not a rare. I'm saying none are really Hall of Shame worthy. I guess it's a good thing you're not in charge though, because obviously those three would be already in.
  16. BigBlue Magic Jones

    To me, the only card with a bad enough drawback for inclusion is my own nomination...

    Goblin decks have uses for 3/3 fast played creatures they can sacrifice if need be... Plus it's only an uncommon and to me, I'm all about shameful cards are crap rares... When you open a pack and you're disappointed because the rare sucked... If you open a pack of Tempest and got a Rathi Dragon, you wouldn't care if it had 3 mogg squads for uncommons...

    Duplicity is fine in a deck where you want to discard - or you don't care if stuff is in your GY - like a reanimator deck... or a madness deck... Yeah, it's pretty expensive for those 5 cards... but it isn't "horrible".
  17. Melkor Well-Known Member

    It has gotten a little contentious I must say. I am in %100 agreement with BigBlue, the rare makes the pack. I think Tempest had several rares that were obviously bad rares to begin with and didn't have sort of interesting effects that you could go casual with. They were just bad and that kills me because it is a true failure of design.

    Anyway, I stand by my nomination. It is just ridiculously underpowered but it also doesn't have any ins and outs to exploit. It can only go in very few (read no) decks. Just a bad card that will never be anything but. At least with some of the other cards you can concoct a scenario where you get something good, Thumbscews best case scenario is 1 damage to your opponent a turn. Now there is a clock.
  18. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're the best cards or even average cards. They're situational/specialized cards. But none are truly the "worst of the worst", i.e. Hall of Shame worthy, IMO.
  19. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    It costs five mana. It gets five cards. You have to wait until your next upkeep. Sacrificing it to Claws of Gix would get rid of the annoying drawback, but you'd still be using a two card combo to not even really refill your hand.


    I'm not pretending a terrible card is a good one.

    Malignant Growth doesn't damage you. It makes you pay for your opponent to draw cards. And yes, we can put on our imagination hats and imagine a scenario in which we've locked our opponent down and have plenty of spare mana and Malignant Growth is actually hurting him. In that situation, we should already win even without the card, so it's superfluous, just like in the scenario you're describing.

    And then your opponent plays another creature and you've got a 2/2?

    Why bother? People would either be confused or rightly assume it was a joke.

    Why are you even posting in these threads anymore if you're just going to say that there are no bad cards in the set?
  20. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    And then you remove it...

    You underestimate people.

    But saying "if someone has used Mogg Squad successfully, I want to know about it", that's where you'll find it. Not here with 10 people, which is hardly a real sampling of Magic card usage. Yeah, you might get lucky and find someone here who's used it, but NOT having anyone say they've used it and/or successfully isn't a reason to conclude that it's no good.

    Because people are still saying stuff. Why are you posting in the thread when you've already given your reasons why you think the cards are bad?

    And you misstate my position: I said I don't think there are any Hall of Shame-worthy cards in the set, not bad cards in general.

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