Free will or Destiny?

[Spiderman]

I noticed you didn't address my statements about the president

Actually, I don't see why you can't drop out and be a priest. Do Catholics have to go to Seminary school like Protestant ministers do?

In any case, as I said, it's a roundabout argument. You say "this person is evil, so there's no way he can be Pope". I say "then he wasn't destined to be Pope."

You could say "this guy is Pope, therefore he led an exemplary life". And I could say "he was destined to be Pope."

In other words, you're trying to use the means to justify the end goal, when you don't know. If you take the end goal and look back and see what the means were, then you might be able to find a common theme. But as I said, some Popes in history were NOT exemplary, so a non-savory person might become Pope (for instance, if the Church became corrupted and some murderer either bought his way in or was voted in by his cronies). You just don't know...

 

[Rando]

And your statements do not address my asertation that destiny, if it exists, is a rigid path set at birth. I chose Pope on a whim...or was I destined to use Pope in my example!?!


So, let me ask you a question: Do you agree that in order for someone's destiny to be fulfilled, then that person MUST go through a certain set of events in life?

 

[Rando]

More sugested reading...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm

This one does not take either side, but tells of the history of this very debate. Very interesting stuff.

 

[Spiderman]

I did address it.

I stated another path by which one may become Pope, a different one from yours.

Put simply, did every past Pope follow the same path to become one? The same blueprint? I would venture "no"; thus the path to become a Pope is NOT rigid and can be reached by different means (since we are using that as the example).

Good stuff, that link. Too much for a casual read

 

[Rando]

Continuing with the Pope as an example...

I'm not saying that all Popes become Pope the same way. What I am saying is that for someone's life to have a certain outcome, then certain things must happen durring the course of that life.

Such as, the man destined to be Pope must be catholic.

 

[DÛke]

...don't like to be on the extreme side of one view and not at least consider the other, but before I do...at least *some* logic must be established.

Destiny just doesn't sound right to me, because it creates much more flaws than having free will. I asked who created this "destiny", and Ura replied with a somewhat logical answer which I partially agree on. Still, however, are some questions that roam my mind.

When exactly is each person's road to their destiny planned?

If a person's destiny is planned the second the person is born, than that's not fair: many babies dies just months, days, and heck, hours after they are born...in this case, if destiny is decided upon birth, than it's really evil.

If a person's fate is decided somewhere in life at a young yet mature age...than why is it decided in the first place?

Who or what decides these fates anyway? I'm not askin' the same question again, what I mean is: why is one guy's destiny is to be executed and the other's is to become the next Bill Gates? It doesn't sound fair *at all*.

...and now that I think about this destiny, I don't think I would have *ever* come to the United States many years ago if it wasn't for a major tragedy. So basically, somewhere in my "fate" it said that a tragedy will happen to me in order to move to the United States. *If* life where I lived wasn't good enough, than my "fate" has certainlly moved me into a better place...but why? If I had stayed, I would've been dead...the only escape was the United States. You mean to tell me that in NO WAY I was supposed to die without being in the United States? It *is* a major change. If it's like that, than my coming to the United States surely is important, and you better watchout, perhaps you'll see me as the next big criminal, or the next president even...after ALL, destiny saved me from a major disaster that is death.

 

[Spiderman]

Rando: Perhaps certain things need to happen. But there's variation among those certain things or even things NOT concerning being a Pope.

For instance, you could first start out as a missionary or first start out as a priest to a church.

The road is not mapped out to the miniscule detail and you can still make "choices" along the way.

DUke: Again, you ask questions that no one really knows the definitive answer. Why do some people end up "good" and some "not"? Who knows, maybe it's balance...

 

[Rando]

If I am able to make choices along the road of life, then wouldn't it stand to reason that I could make a choice that effects my destiny? Why would I be able to make some choices and not others?

What if Man-Who-Would-Be-Pope desides to convert to Hinduism?

To that you could argue, "Well, he's not destined to be Pope then, is he?"

But, let's pretend that we are indeed Fate it'self. What happens if the person to be Pope decides to do somethin that will keep him from being Pope. Does his destiny change? Has it changed? Do we force his hand in the matter?

Humor me here...

 

[Ransac]

I said "yes" because I believe that what WE choose directly effects our life and we can change it to our liking with effort. HOWEVER, there are some things in our lives we cannot control.



Ransac, cpa trash man

 

[DÛke]

Spiderman, the whole destiny versus free will is fragile, and we're talking about it. My questions maybe indefinite, but they strongly support the nonexistance of destiny. I have no prove that free will exists, but I do have many questions to disassemeble the idea of destiny. I wouldn't believe you can ask a question that could disaprove of free will...

*My* idea is that if destiny somehow exists, than so does God, and so does Satan. This is the reason why some are born destined to have a bright future, and others blessed with a dark, malicious one. If God exists, than so does Satan...it's, as you refer to it Spiderman, just "balance".

 

[Ura]

Spidey: To answer your question about having to finish school first the answer is no, simply because most Popes of the catholic church are chosen from Europe and Rome itself where people enroll in the priesthood at a much earlier age. Its like very intense sunday school insted of seminary school.

Rando:
If for some reason your choices in life lead you away from your destiny then you simply don't reach your destiny. As I've said before, you don't have to get to your destiny, at least not on the first try. But your destiny is signified as being the best you can achieve in life or as as effect that when you go has profound ripple effects on others, your destiny isn't always about just you.
Also with the Pope example continuing.
Yes, you are correct that in the simple term that in order to go from point A to point B, you must take a path of steps, however those steps may be very broad and distinct from person to person.
Besides that, this very argument can prove that destiny could exist. As you are stating you must go from point A to point B to get to destination C. Therefore you have a set path you must follow and no free will about it. And as I'm sure many history books will show, we've had quite a few popes over time. Therefore they must have been destined to be popes.
The other thing that you should consider is that becoming pope or president even, is not something we simply choose to do on a whim. Human nature forces us to think about it and consider it and plan a path to reach our desired end result, thus removing free will as once again we must go from point A to B, to reach destination C.

What if Man-Who-Would-Be-Pope desides to convert to Hinduism?

Then you could still become pope. As the very definition of pope does not limit to being catholic. For instance the following are two of the several definitions of pope.

3; The male head of some non-Christian religions: the Taoist pope. (could also be a hindu pope as well)
4; A person considered to have unquestioned authority: the pope of surrealism.

Also, destiny isn't so precise to say, "You will be Pope." It will say something more like, "You will become a religious leader of peoples."

Duke:
I'll try to give you some answers, or at least theories that can explain in a way your questions.

When exactly is each person's road to their destiny planned?

No one knows for sure, I personally believe its when your soul comes into existence. Destiny is very much a force that goes with your spirt/shen/katra depending on what you wish to call it.
I don't believe it could be at birth because your around for about 7 months before that, technically 9, but your nothing but goo for the first 2.

Who or what decides these fates anyway? I'm not askin' the same question again, what I mean is: why is one guy's destiny is to be executed and the other's is to become the next Bill Gates? It doesn't sound fair *at all*.

Well, how many times have we heard that life isn't fair, or thought it. I know I have on hundreds of occasions and find that its a generally accepted theory that life isn't fair.
The force of destiny isn't fair by our human terms, its not politically correct or biased in any way. It just exists with no form of definable boundaries.

many babies dies just months, days, and heck, hours after they are born...

Then they simply don't reach their destiny. Remember that destiny is a spiritual force, it can't make us with perfect bodies all the time and when that happens our physical existence is ended prematurely. Our spirits simply get in line to be born again unless it was our destiny to die that way. Its not fair or nice at all I know, but very few things in life are.

 

[Rando]

You are not really going with the example I have given. I said Pope, not someone like the Pope.

"If for some reason your choices in life lead you away from your destiny then you simply don't reach your destiny. As I've said before, you don't have to get to your destiny, at least not on the first try"

Then what you are talking about is not destiny, but some mish-mash spiritualisim you've concocted.

"The other thing that you should consider is that becoming pope or president even, is not something we simply choose to do on a whim."

I think Ross Perot would disagree.

"Also, destiny isn't so precise to say, "You will be Pope." It will say something more like, "You will become a religious leader of peoples." "

This statement also avoids any real definition of destiny. In order to argue something, you have to know what it is you are arguing for. Please give me your definition of what you consider destiny to be.

 

[DÛke]

...Thanks Ura. Your answers do make sense, but they arise more questions.

Then they simply don't reach their destiny... Our spirits simply get in line to be born again unless it was our destiny to die that way. Its not fair or nice at all I know, but very few things in life are.

Basically, you think that some are just born to die, and that's their destiny? That's what I understand...and *that*, Spiderman and Ura, is *not* humane. I'm tellin' ya people, if destiny exists, than so does a supreme power. God. Satan.

If destiny exists, than it, itself can't be free-willed. It has to have a fate of its own.

 

[Ura]

Rando:

You are not really going with the example I have given. I said Pope, not someone like the Pope.

And why aren't they a pope? The very definition of the word means that they are. They aren't the roman catholic pope, but they are a pope. Its just religious bias that assumes there can only ever be one pope in the world and the rest are just "wannabe's" for lack of a better term.

"If for some reason your choices in life lead you away from your destiny then you simply don't reach your destiny. As I've said before, you don't have to get to your destiny, at least not on the first try"

Then what you are talking about is not destiny, but some mish-mash spiritualisim you've concocted.

Actually it very much is destiny. Many faiths believe that destiny is something that must be accomplished before ours spirits can move onto another level. If you screw up and don't reach your destiny then you just have to be reborn and try again until you do. Several branches of buddism believe this line of thought for instance. Destiny also isn't a sole force that exists by itself, but in conjunction with other "unprovable" theories like reicarnation.

"The other thing that you should consider is that becoming pope or president even, is not something we simply choose to do on a whim."

I think Ross Perot would disagree.

From what I remember he also isn't president and dropped out of the election race. I also really doubt that he just woke up one morning and said to himself, "Today I'll be president." There was probably much more thought and consideration behind his move to go into the election race.

"Also, destiny isn't so precise to say, "You will be Pope." It will say something more like, "You will become a religious leader of peoples."

This statement also avoids any real definition of destiny. In order to argue something, you have to know what it is you are arguing for. Please give me your definition of what you consider destiny to be.

As I've stated before, destiny isn't a precision instrument like a lazer scalpel. To give it a solid definition of anykind completely defies the essense of it as its something that can't be clinically defined with clear borders and rules as many other things can be in science. We may as well sit around and debate creationism vrs. darwinism, one is based in science and one on faith. Though it doesn't avoid a real definition either, it simply says that destiny isn't precise, its broad and open to interpretation.
What I'm arguing here is that we are not totally free willed as you would state, but that we are free willed to make choices as we see fit in life, but that there are "invisible" or unknown goals set for us to achieve and that depending on our choices we may or may not reach our destiny.
As I said before as well,

But your destiny is signified as being the best you can achieve in life or as as effect that when you go has profound ripple effects on others, your destiny isn't always about just you.

Duke:

Basically, you think that some are just born to die, and that's their destiny?

No one is born simply to die, though the quote certainly makes it look as though thats what I was implying. Remember my other statement that sometimes destiny isn't just about you, but the ripple effects you have on others when you die.
For instance, that child that only lives 2 weeks or 3 days will seem like the life was pointless, but perhaps it wasn't that child's destiny to live for itself. When it was born it brings, (or at least should bring) a life time of joy to the mother and father and that simple memory and bit of incredible happiness that it brought with it can sometimes be more profound on a person then the accomplishments of an entire life time.

Destiny isn't humane, it not even human. Its simply a force that exists, just like a god and devil. It doesn't have it own boundaries, it just exists in an eternal form. Like gravity will always exist as long as there is a universe. Its a constant.

 

[DÛke]

...
Ura:

Its simply a force that exists, just like a god and devil.

So you're sure that destiny exists? I'm sorry, I agree with your point of views, but I don't agree about the existance (or its nonexistance) of destiny. There is no way any of us can verify and of this information.

The simple *facts* are that if destiny does exist, than it is not divine in *any* way...this fact comes from the many pains "destiny" could lead people into, making life "not fair." And why!? Why inflict pain upon random people...why give different people different fates, some where that are completely unfair? Spiderman says it's to balance...but balance what? Balance the existance of humanity? What, is there a rule somewhere that says humanity can't live in complete peace and happiness...and some *must* suffer?

And the question after all this remains...why? Why live in the first place if what you end up is determined by an unknown force.

My opinion: like everything else, destiny has to have a creator. There is simply no such thing as free-existance. It can't just "be there." Everything, every image, every thought, every change of heart, wether enforced by destiny or not, has a creator, and the creator is the person owning these thoughts. I don't believe in God, but I don't dismiss such existance...I don't believe because I question the creator of God, and the creator of the being who created God...etc...

While I don't agree about many issues, I don't dismiss them. Though I find it hard to see some believing in such things as destiny, especially where there's no prove. At least keep your mind open about it, but don't go in and believe in it.

 

[Hawaiian mage]

We have to beleive in free will. We don't really have a choice...

 

[Ura]

Duke:
All very good points, especially this one in perticular.

There is no way any of us can verify and of this information.

neither side can be proven and its simply a case of conjecture and theories that can bring a possible meaning to it. I don't push aside any idea myself either, however there are things that I believe more than others.
You are correct that destiny if it does truely exist is not a divine force such as god is made out to be. I think of it as a non-sentient force like gravity, but on a much more metaphysical level. Its like chaotic order in a way in that it in itself is ordered as is its purpose, however its means of acomplishing this purpose is random, its like pulling names out of a hat.
Spidey's balance in the universe theory is also a possibility, though I like mine more.

And the question after all this remains...why? Why live in the first place if what you end up is determined by an unknown force.

Why live? Because we don't know what destiny has in store for us, and as you state, we can't even prove it exists. But as I said much earlier in the thread, life isn't about where you are in the end, its the journey to the end and thats whats worth living for.
Also the same question can be asked for the free will theory as well. Whats the point of living if your just gonna die in the end and nothing happens. Nothing to accomplish and no goals set for you, whats the point?
I like to put faith in the destiny theory because in a way it gives me a goal to try and attain while I live. I don't know the goal, or when I'll reach it, or even if its really there, but it gives me something to work towards when I've got nothing else.

Sometimes proof isn't needed for people to believe in it, look how many people go to church on sundays. I can pretty much gaurantee that none of them have met god personally. But some things are based around faith rather then factual evidence.

 

[magicman_moe]

wellllllllllll


ok we do have free will. i seriously think that if everything was predestined that we would be talking about this right now cuz more than likely we wouldve met it already.

i do belive that we are destined for something we just dont klnow what it is just yet. but i think that its gonna be a universal desnination.
armageddon? time travel? some sort of sped up evoloution perhaps? who knows. it just comes to show sometimes pardon my language
poop happens!
now while said poop might have been predetermined it probly did not. there are things that do surprise god sometimes.

 

[Landkiller]

All of this post is about destiny, as I theorize it.

Destiny to me is no lofty concept.

Destiny is that what you get has been determined before even your parents were born.

Destiny doesn't care about you ; you don't get what you deserve, you get what you get.

Your very thoughts exist to propel you to this destiny, your thoughts come from your genetics and your life experiences, which are the only two things that you are, and you never had any control over them. Each life experience guides you to the next one.

Each time you make a decision, you make the future you were destined to make.

Your own free will submits to destiny. You were destined to decide such. If in the future, you decide against doing something, you are not rebelling against destiny. What you are doing, some motive compels you to do. You react to what is presented to you.

Now, destiny can inherently never be known. Some basic contradictions arise if you could predict the future with 100% accuracy; namely, that if you see the future, that future will not be able to compensate for your knowledge of it. If you truly saw the future, you would be able to predict not only what will happen, but everything that can happen given actions you take to alter the future. Changing the future makes the future you saw not the real future, as the events you saw did not come to pass.

Any knowledge you retain changes you, since it becomes part of you. Your knowledge changes the way you think. If you think differently, then you will act differently.

Since destiny can never be known, how can destiny affect you? Simple. Know that what happens to you is fate. It was your fate to come across this information. Realize that you have limitless options, of which only one will come to pass. That option will be chosen by you.
Your experiences in life have guided you here. Everyone will do what they feel is right. Even if sometimes what they feel is right is actually wrong. Your thoughts affect what you do, what you do affects other's thoughts(and will eventually come to affect your thoughts, as their reactions manifest). Decide what it is you value, and promote it. You gain no benefit through self-pity, since what is, is. Live with it. Decide now to conciously change the world around you into a better place. There's nothing stopping you from deciding to do so, except your own life experiences and genetics. All I can hope is that the experience of reading this can set you on a brighter path.

 

[Griffith_se]

Originally posted by Hawaiian mage
We have to beleive in free will. We don't really have a choice...

LOL