Deckdoctor help needed!!!

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Daenen

Guest
to Arhar:
I have some advice on your deck.

-1 Jhovall Queen (Too big)
-1 Disenchant (5 is enough, Sideboard the rest)
-2 Ramosian Lieutenant (two is perfect)

+2 Thermal Glider
+2 Nightwing Glider
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
Actually in my opinion Jhovall Queen is perfectly fine now that Lin Sivvi is around, but you might need Cradles to justify her. I would certainly want to add in a couple of Rapelling Scouts and having played my WWeenie for a while I think that any WWeenie running Tutors HAS to pack a Spiritual Asylum - it`s SO good in so many matches, like a maindeck AbGrace+Law.
But I think Arhar`s deck just has too much removal, Exile in particular is something I would try to leave in the SB, and Arrest is a little expensive to run more than 1/2 of especially seeing as you can Tutor when you need it.
So let`s try to build a WWeenie without Cradles and Masticores.

4 Ramosian Sergeant
3 Mother Of Runes
4 Longbow Archer
2 Steadfast Guard
2 Ramosian Lieutenant
2 Lin Sivvi
1 Devout Witness
2 Thermal Glider
2 Nightwind Glider
1 Rapelling Scouts
(having said I like the Queen I actually don`t use her)

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Disenchant
2 Humble
3 Crusade
1 Arrest
1 Glorious Anthem
2 Parallax Wave
1 Spiritual Asylum

3 Dust Bowl (beat CradleWweenie)
19 Plains
 
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The Magic Jackal

Guest
Where's the story circle? It works so good in this deck. Also, worship is good. I would take out the arrest, and the humbles, and add the anthems to the sideboard, for mirror matches. Actually, if your going to play all those enchantments, adding in a couple of rectors might not be a bad idea.
 
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Daenen

Guest
I played a Rebel deck before that used Artifact mana to power the Rebels, and Armageddon as a kill card. Here's a rough draft, with a few cards from Nemisis. What do you all think?

Lands (22)
4 Crystal Vein
2 Remote Farm
16 Plains

Creatures (1 :cool:
4 Sergeants
2 Lieutenants
3 Thermal Gliders
3 Nightwing Gliders
4 Steadfast Guard
2 Lin Sivvi

Artifacts ( :cool:
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo

Spells (12)
2 Story Circle
2 Disenchant
4 Armageddon
2 Parallax Wave

It's probably just crap, but you never know. It could be good with a little tweaking.
 
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The Magic Jackal

Guest
ha,ha, your 8 ) turned into a :cool:

Anyway, i have been thinking about a rebel control deck myself. there are a lot of controling white enchantments in the current enviroment- worhip, parallax wave, spirtual asylum, ivroy mask, story circle, armageddon, etc.

Trow in some rebels, crusade, and reverant mantra for the kill.

I have even been thinking about adding in fountain watch to protect all those enchantments. You could even put in conspiracy to allow your rebels to get the conspiracy, and put in some rectors to get the conspiracy.

This deck could work, only porblem is that all those enchantments are expensive, and it would take 2 or 3 of them to get a lock. sigh...
 

TomB

Administrator
Staff member
Gizmo,
WELL SAID! :D

I don't think anyone here is trying to "flame" anyone. I think we're only providing occasionally differing viewpoints and allowing others to make up their own minds.

Intellectual discussions between opinionated people are funny that way.

That said, I feel the need to point out that I feel the weakening of the control archtype by WotC is a direct result of their listening to players complain about (near) creatureless decks dominating tournament play.

Yes, that's right. I just said WotC listened to us, the players. Pretty unusual for me, huh?

Too bad they forgot about combos powered by card drawing engines. :(

Sorry about going off topic for a minute there. As far as the deck idea is concerned, I think EVERYONE is trying to build a good rebel deck right now, if for no better reason than to use as a test deck. I hadn't thought to use the Cradles like that, but if I did I'd probably add a couple of big green fatties into the mix, or more copies of Lin Sivvi and Sky Marshals. Either way, it's some good food for thought.

TomB
CPA Member
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Man,I hate posting on a Friday; I don't get to respond until Monday and miss all sorts of stuff in between.

Gizmo: Thanks for your point of view. As I have not been in the tourney scene I really have no idea how control is doing/how it is affected by the loss of the Disk. My opinions were formed by reading the Dojo and my own observations and it's always good to get more information. I just really wanted to know more in detail why you thought the Disk was necessary to bring back.

The only thing I'm still stuck on :) is your assertion that good players seem to have the "right" to beat bad players. Perhaps that's not what you're saying, but that's what I'm getting. I agree that the luck factor has risen, but I think that's what happens when you play with cards, don't have identical decks, and have to shuffle. Sure, you can try your best to minimize it by including 4 of a card, but in the large scheme of things, you should be able to handle whatever your opponent's deck throws out, bad card or not. Waiting for a gamesaver and topdecking a Disk doesn't seem to me like a good reason to bring it back.

Again, this is just for the sake of argument; just like you, I don't play control decks a lot. Just interested in your views. You give good reasons on the other points :)
 
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Gizmo

Guest
Well, in a perfect world Magic would be a game of skill - it would reward good play and punish bad play. But Magic is also game of chance, and so it will never occur that good beats bad 100% of the time, that`s just the way it is.
BUT
That does not make the luck part a good thing. Refereeing mistakes are a part of football and can swing games, but that doesn`t mean they are a good thing. In many ways my argument IS that good players should beat bad players, that`s why they bothered practising to get good in the first place.

Do they have a 'right' to win games?
Perhaps they do. Certainly they have a right to EXPECT to win those games, they should certainly feel that the game is going to reward their effort and expense and time and abilility and concentration and practice and the networking that goes into becoming a good player. They should certaily feel that at some point they will be given an opportunity to show their ability and win because they were better than their opponent.
Luck is a part of Magic, and every player accepts that. You will NEVER hear a good player bemoan his bad luck, at least not seriously - perhaps he`ll say "Man, he topdecked AGAIN!" and throw his cards down, but five minutes later the frustration is forgotten and logged under 'Shit Happens'.
A good player knows better than anybody that over the course of his career he has been lucky more often than he has been unlucky, and he knows better than any beginner that Magic games are often decided by luck.
But that doesn`t mean that we should embrace luck and try to increase it`s influence over the game.

If I wanted to play a game where every game was decided by ability, and good player always beat bad, I would play Chess and watch Men`s Tennis. If I wanted to play a game where every game was decided by luck I would sit and flip coins all day long. For money.
Magic is neither Chess nor coinflipping, thankfully, but taking the Disk out made it more like the latter and less like the former.
That is something I, personally, disagree with.
You might not, and that`s fine - if we all agreed the arms industry would collapse and screw up the economy so it`s probably a good thing anyway.
;)

*****

I have a totally seperate point about the Disk, which I will just outline here briefly (ie, less than 1500 words).
For me one of the main strengths of M:tG as a game - the reason why despite the fact it was the first it is still the best (think about how unique this is - is the Model T the best car ever, is the mud hut the best house?), is that it is a very diverse game to play, far more so than it`s competitors. So many of the other games on the market feel as though you are playing a black deck against a green deck, it`s all creature interaction.
In my experience only Netrunner works hard to break this trend, although as I understand it Star Wars was so poorly playtested that you could often build broken combo decks and avoid creature interaction. In Magic you can play virtually-creatureless control, combo, creature rush - almost every other game is entirely creature based (L5R, B5, Deadlands, Rage, Pokemon, Star Trek) and they are uninteresting to me because of how vanilla-like their games are. Look at the current rebel deck, never has a deck been more likely to degenerate into 'L5R Magic' as I dub it (both players continue to lay permanents until the table collapses under the weight of cardboard, and the last person to lay a permanent when that happens is the winner).


I enjoy the diversity of Magic decks, I enjoy living in a metagame with Bargain, Hatred, and Necro. If, by taking the Disk, WotC killed creatureless control, and if they then (as many people want) kill combo as well, then you simply reduce the mighty game of Magic - first and best of the CCGs - to the same level as it`s competitors.

THAT would be the real tragedy.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Well, I enjoy reading your thoughts and you surely have a better grasp of the scene than I do. There's not much more I can say to contribute to this...
 
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galtwish

Guest
Of note would be the fact that the current metagaem may contain upwards of %25 WW/Rebel decks so Crusade should probably be a sideboard card.

My Disk rant;
Disk allowed control decks to play the fine line and take maximum advantage of an opponent, much like U/W with Icy Manipulators forcing an opponent to play multiple creatures until they could Wrath. Unfortunately, Disk allowed Necro and Draw-Go to Wrath and destroy Winter Orb as well as Circle of Protection: You Lose. It was unfair in that it help certain colors more than others. And this made it the hallmark of superior players, as they could exploit colors who were natually strong at doing other things while reling on Disk to do White and Red's jobs. It was appropriate for Disk to rotate out, but it has hurt the viability of certain archtypes. This is compounded by Monolith and Cradle making "overextention" easier and more rewarding. No one would play 3rd turn Morphling if 4th turn Disk was a threat.

Erik
 
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Gizmo

Guest
Welcome to my esteemed colleague, Mr Berg!
You`re right about the WWeenie qoutient - notice that I have dropped to 3 Crusades. But Crusades are still great and necessary against 75% of the field, and can now be used in WWeenie mirrormatches thanks to Parallax Wave, so I think moving them entirely to the SB is a bit of an overreaction.

You are right that people would not play Monolith/Morphling if Disk was around - but they would play Disk/Morphling instead. WotC took out the Disk because it was the lowest common denominator in T2 at that time - it simply WAS the metagame - and they deliberately sought to shake the metagame up with Classic, it was their design brief.
Now the metagame IS Masticore. I simply feel that the current metagame of control decks that are virtually beatdown (Accel Blue, Black Control with Negators) is not as enjoyable, varied, or balanced as it would be if the Disk were around.
But I feel like I`ve said all that before so this will be my last comment on the subject unless somebody has a really good point that hasn`t been made yet.
 
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galtwish

Guest
I forgot to include "...play 4 main deck Glorious Anthem" when I recommended taking out the Crusades. And yes, Parallax Wave is HUGE for this deck, almost as important as Lin Sivvi.

Erik
 
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The Magic Jackal

Guest
what about the story circle? Doesn't everyone remember how lame it was when your opponent would side out a card for a cop red against your burn deck? the only problem with the cop's where that they couldn't be played main deck. Now they can. boohoohoo, they cost an extra mana, and you can only pay white mana to activate it. It a small price to pay for preventing the 5 damage delt by rhox.
 
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