Deckdoctor help needed!!!

A

arhar

Guest
Hello

Could anyone, especially mr Gizmo, help me with this deck? It cheerfully and consistently loses to Black Discard and Opposition/Hermit, goes 60/40 with Stompy, 50/50 with blue, haven't played a single Bargain deck in 4 tournaments, but it eats red afor breakfast. Allright here's the deck.

4 Mother of Runes
4 Ramosian Sergeant
4 Ramosian Leutenant
2 Lin Sivvy
4 Disenchant
4 Steadfast Guard
4 Arrest
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Crusade
1 Glorious Anthem
1 Nightwing Glider
1 Thermal Glider
1 Jhoval Queen
2 Reverent Mantra
2 Exile
2 Seal of Cleansing
20 Plains

Maybe (probably) I got something wrong, but it should be 61 card

Sideboard:
4 Crackdown
3 Absolute Law
3 Absolute Grace
3 Erase
2 Seal of Cleansing

HELP!!!!!
 
T

The Magic Jackal

Guest
Since when does a rebel deck ever beat a ponza deck?
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
Well I can reply by saying "since when did anybody play Ponza?". Red decks with Wildfire have been gone from my metagame for over 6 months, replaced by stronger TecBreak decks and they cannot handle the WWeenie so well.
After sideboarding Ponza (even with Wildfire) is struggling with AbLaw, and if you expect Wildfire in your metagame the WWeenie just adds in 3 Reverent Mantra core and that`s a win there and then.
I would have to give WWeenie the edge in this match - Crusades and Protection do not make for a happy red deck.
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
Well this listing is similar enough to my own WWeenie listing that I guess I can justify simply putting that out to grass once more:

CAND!MAN Parallax WWeenie
v1.4
4 Ramosian Sergeant
3 Mother Of Runes
4 Longbow Archer
3 Fresh Volunteers
2 Ramosian Lieutenant
2 Nightwind Glider
2 Thermal Glider
1 Lin Sivvi
2 Masticore

2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Crusade
2 Seal Of Cleansing
1 Disenchant
1 Glorious Anthem
2 Armageddon
2 Parallax Wave
1 Worship

3 Gaea`s Cradle
19 Plains

The main noticable addition are the Gaea`s Cradles, which were my idea in the first place anyway - so there! But now Cradles are getting so widespread among WWeenie that it might be time to start rethinking their role, althouhg I guess you could always 'Geddon theirs away then quickly drop your Cradle in first. Cradles simply turbo-power the Rebel-search ability to a phenomenal extent.
Fresh Volunteers edge the Steadfast Guard out because their ability (to get cast when you only have a Plains and Cradle) is better than the Guard`s. The biggest creatures I run are Masticores, which are powerhouse in the mirromatch and combo superhard with Cradles.
Parallax Wave also joins the deck to make mine probably a more aggressive deck to play, able to quickly drop Rebels, Wave their blockers away and then Crusade for a kill before they get them back. This makes the Rebel search ability a secondary factor and the Lin Sivvi is rarely used, she`s mainly in here as a spoiler for the mirrormatch.

Basically our two decks are very similar, mainly I add Cradles and Masticores, and tinker with the spells a lot. But I don`t think this will do much to affect the matchups it faces, although I am surprised to hear you say it loses to black discard, especially given the AbGrace in the SB.
We see the WWeenie matchups as:
Numbers in brackets are with SB
Bargain - 20/80 (40/60) if Bargain expected 3/4 Scour in SB gives 60/40
WWeenie - 70/30 (65/35)
Stompy - 30/70 (70/30)
RedLD - 60/40 (75/25)
MonoBlue - 70/30 (65/35)
Black - 30/70 (60/40)

Although your sideboard seems poor compared to mine, which takes advantage of the Tutor`s flexibility and tackles the creature problem better than with Crackdown:

SB
2 AbGrace
2 AbLaw
1 Serenity (mono-brown)
2 Disenchant
3 Wrath Of God (mirrormatch)
1 Armageddon
3 Blinding Angel (Stompy)
1 Thran Foundry (Bargain)
 
D

Daenen

Guest
I have three cards in my sideboard that eat White Weenie for breakfast: Powder Keg, Thran Lens, and Distorting Lens. I just wait for the Keg to get two counters on it, then, POW!!, bye bye Crusade, and most of your creatures. Oh, darn, I lost a tapped Grim Monolith. What ever will I do.

All I'm saying, guys, is that even if your deck can beat Red, there is a red deck out there that can eat it for breakfast. Hell, I've seen my Wildfire deck get eaten by a White Weenie deck before.

10% Deck + 40% Player + 50% Luck of the Draw = Magic the Gathering.
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
Well Powder Keg doesn`t blow up the Crusades so I think you`re playing it wrong - it only nobbles Artifacts and Creatures. And white IS the color of Disenchant. But just so long as you accept that the matchup can at least go both ways.

29% deck + 49% skill + 29% matchups + 3% luck = success at Magic:The Gathering


[Edited by Gizmo (03-15-2000 at 05:10 AM).]
 
T

The Magic Jackal

Guest
I've got a wierd red deck that can basically take care of anything. It's basically half LD, half Massive creature destruction (faultline, earthquake, wildfire, cave-in, etc.). It works pretty good. About half my sideboard is dedicated to killing artifacts.
Basically, Wildfire destroys me, So pulverize is a crucical card to pull out of the sideboard. WWennie does currently suck, and i have no idea why people play it, alright i do, becuase it's easy to build. and easy to play. Does this remind you of stompy?
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
I have to disagree. If you think WWeenie sucks then you are playing a poor version, or playing against a poor version, or against a poor player, or you happen to have a deck that creams WWeenie. (My mate thinks Masticore is a terrible card because his decks always run Exile so he never loses to it and just sees his opponent give away card advantage with the upkeep.)
It has been dominating the post-Nemesis tournaments and has no reall terrible matchups as it has a kick-ass sideboard for everything it faces. My CAND!MAN CradleWWeenie list has already won two 40+ player tournaments since March 1st.
 
D

Duel

Guest
I find rebel decks actually too slow for weenie to be played with them unless you ahve a quick method of protection (story cicle). However, with the right deck, you can dominate the midgame, a feat few weenie before ever accomplished.
BTW, maybe white weenie has gone downhill a little, but green stompy is currently flexing it's muscles. Between ridgback, seal of strength, giant growth, rancor, and a few other touchers, green can easily dominate. Red and black worry me, though. Those colors really don't have weenie. Fortunately, both have anti-weenie (plague witch, flowstone strike/overseer).
I do have a white weenie deck, just because I like taking advantage of the three other players, all of whome use crusades. White weenie is not fast enough right now to dominate in tournaments. on the other hand, I don't know how Lin Sivvi will change it. (A big advantage: it can be summoned! SO much for the Legend drawback.)
 
T

The Magic Jackal

Guest
I've haven't been playing against poor rebel decks, or poor players. I have beaten nemerous rebel decks with easy. If you leave them alone the first 4-5 turns, they will win, but that's not the case in the current environment. It's just too slow.
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
Hmm...
Why is it slower - it uses exactly the same mana curve as always, often accelerated by Gaea`s Cradles. It also now has all the removal it needs (Parallax Wave) to execute rapid victories against other creature decks. White Weenie has never been a particularly fast deck (except when Empyrial Armor was around), it wins with it`s control elements and they are just as effective now as ever before.

But I guess this is just somebody who has seen WWeenie cream everything trying to argue with somebody who has seen WWeenie get creamed BY everything. Welcome to the new Dojoless Type-2, where no good deck designers are operating and so there are no real 'decks to beat' because every deck has glaring weaknesses because they have been designed by Mr Joe Random.

Bargain is the best deck in T2 right now - so much so that it`s broken over the rest of the environment.
But the deck is fundamentally bad, and 12 months ago we would have laughed at it had it existed then as it does now.

Man, we need the Disk back SO bad!
Type-2 is almost pointless without the Disk because scrubs can happily play out their random junk safe in the knowledge that better players can`t blow it up and take advantage of their opponent`s poor play. It makes the whole game so random, and means that it is almost impossible to play a consistent control deck, which was previously the hallmark of a true quality player, now the only consistent decks are beatdown.
The whole of Magic strategy has been tipped arse over tit in favor of fast decks and lucky draws instead of control decks and strategic thinkers. When 6th came in we moved from an environment defined by Disk to an environment defined by Masticore, and that new environment simply isn`t as skillful.
 
T

The Magic Jackal

Guest
I would have to say the best decks are currently Bargain and Black control. Black control got a lot of good spells in nemesis-mind swords, parallax dementia, mind slash isn't bad, etc.

Land destruction, squirrel prison, enchantress, and wildfire are powerful, but if only used correctly with the correct player. Playing with only 6-10 creatures in a ponza deck is hard, so you must know wheater or not to pay the avalache riders echo. Many people don't give ponza decks the props they deserve.

Let's see, that leaves us with what rebel (WWennie) stompy, and accelerated blue? Stompy and rebel are pretty easy to play, and will be played, simply because of their simplicity to play and build.
 
D

Duel

Guest
As an extensive player who has never gone to a tournament, thinks a mana curve is the mana your elf produces befroe it dies, and knows not a word of magicspiek, I feel required to ask this: What the hell is "ponza"?
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Gizmo: This is the second time I've seen you rail against the exclusion of Nev's Disk and its loss of impact on the environment. Speaking as an observer, why is having so many decks ("bad", as you term them) not good? You say that the Disk helped good players beat bad players. In that case, they are seemingly relying on ONE card to get them through their matches, which leads to everyone wanting one, which leads to dominance (not that I'm saying it happened, but how trends will go). Why can't good players beat bad players without the Disk? Especially if the bad players are playing with their "crazy" decks anyway.

I can't remember if you spoke about this before, but beatdown pretty much waxed and control started to wane around Tempest. And in response to THAT (so they say), WOTC tried to slow the environment down with US and MM. I'm guessing from your post that they didn't go far enough to suit you :).
 
Z

Zadok001

Guest
Duel: Remember my short-lived Wildfire deck? That's a version of Ponza. Red land destruction, burn, and creatures, often accelerated by artifact mana.

"And, in my case, Caltrops and Dragons."
 
A

arhar

Guest
Well.. getting back to the original topic why I started this thread.. and that being HELP WITH WW DECK :) sorry about that

I didn't include Gaea's Cradle and Masticore in this deck for an obvious reason... if I could include Gaea's Cradle in any deck I play, I would obviously not be a member of CPA, and be a tournament player. It's pretty simple: I don't own any, and I never hope to acquire any number of those. The best cards I own are two Italian Eurekas, Underworld Dreams and Island of Wak Wak. In theory, they are supposed to cost $20-40. But - guess what - no one wants to trade their Masticores and Cradles for them. Oh well, that's really off-topic. So getting back to my deck, I figured out the power of Gaeas Cradle in this deck a long time ago, but as I can't use it, what could be the replacement for this and Masticore? Also, what do you think about Reprisals? I think they're quite awesome. As for the topic about WW beating any kind of red deck, Absolute Law and Sanctimony pretty much solve all problems. And I thought about it and you guys can't really help me with the sideboard - my sideboard is tuned for the decks I play against, and so is yours. Anyway, here's the question: What do I replace Masticore and Gaea's Cradle with, and if there's nothing to replace it, is there some kind of useful spells that I haven't thought of?
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
Well I think we might need to call a judge to forfeit this match, Spiderman, because I think we are about to disagree about reality.

"In that case they are relying on one card to see them through their matches. Why can`t good players beat bad players without the Disk?"

They do, but they cannot be as reliable. The good players will always float to the top in any environment, but their consistency in doing so has dropped since Disk left. No matter the field or environment you would expect the good players to outperform the bad, but the matchups/luck index has risen since Disk left.
A good player used to relish meeting a bad player, he used to relish the sight of his opponent throwing out his cards in a mad rush because he knew the Disk would arrive and win the game for him there and then. Now the matchup against bad players can be scary because you have no sure way of dealing with their cards - bad play is positively rewarded in the new Type2 because the chances are not only will you avoid losing to Disk if you empty out early, but you will catch some players with a mana screw and win games you might have lost by playing technically correctly.

Example:
Opposition is THE WORST card. Okay, it`s an enchantment that does nothing by itself, and in fact requires you to have a mass of creatures in play to use it. But in the new Type2 not only is it good, but it rewards playing without token generators (the only acceptable way of playing Opposition when Disk is around would be with a rapid generator) as they are vulnerable to Powder Keg.

"Control started to wane about Tempest"

Hmm, that would be because it didn`t get any good spells like Whispers, Forbid, Tradewind, Capsize, Phoenix, Survival, Weaver, Legacy`s, Oath, or Edict?
I`m afraid I have to disagree on a basic level.
I think the major sea change came much earlier, it was the printing of Fireblast in Visions which first kickstarted beatdown decks into the first Tier when Magic had preivously been ALL about control matches.
But control was always the number one deck (Ophibounce, Forbiddian, 5cU, Draw-Go Oath, Counterphoenix, Draw-Go again, WillNecro) right up until the Disk went in 6th. From that point it has been impossible to build a truly consistent control deck.
The control decks have had to accelerate their attack window by around 10-20 turns and are now largely dependent on Masticore as both defence and kill. This means they cannot possibly be as solid because Masticore is nowhere near as solid as Disk when it comes to removal and defence. Control is the most skillful decktype to play, it requries thought and planning and is basically the hardest type to play, but if control is unreliable compared to other decktypes then good players are forced to throw themselves on the mercy of playing beatdown and topdecking in tight mirrormatches, or try to get lucky with control decks and actually use their playing ability if the cards fall right for them.

"WOTC tried to slow the field down with US and MM, I guess they didn`t go far enough for you"

Well I don`t think this is really an essential part of my point - I would never complain about rotation as I see it as a player`s job to keep up and evolve. I don`t think I have ever complained about a rotation or banning before, but the loss of Disk has had such a harmful effect on the viability and popularity of Type2 that I cannot avoid commenting.
For your information I don`t generally play control decks, the loss of Disk has not personally hurt me very much. But I do appreciate very fully how much Type2 is suffering as a format in the Disk`s absence.
 
T

The Magic Jackal

Guest
TRANSLATION: This is what we like to call an intellectual flame. Gizmo never directly flames spiderman, but it's pretty aparent that he thinks that spiderman is missing a few marbles.

What do i think? Well, anyone that can stick to wall is okay with me!

[Edited by The Magic Jackal (03-17-2000 at 11:44 PM).]
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
I`m not trying to make him feel bad, which I think is the point of a flame.
I`m trying to make him agree with me, which I think is the point of a discussion.
 
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