Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by seveninchcowboy, Jun 21, 2000.

  1. Apollo Bird Boy

    There's a darn good chance that instead of the groan, you should insert one of these phrases:

    "Force of Will"
    "Force Spike"
    "Blue Elemental Blast"

    or in a few turns:
    "bounce it and counter it when you recast it"

    Sure it's good, but it's only if you play first, and it's definitely not a sure thing.

    I personally like "Mountain, Jackal Pup" as a pretty good way to handle blue. But it's not exactly foolproof either.

  2. Cateran Overlord New Member

    Tag Guard

    Well Gizmo, I have to disagree with a lot of the things you say as well. First off, black discard is not a deck, nor is blue counter. Both of them have a secondary element which is to complement the first. Black discard I almost always supplement with black LD, which keep them from casting that which I cannot discard yet, leavin it in their hand. So to an extent, discard can be viewed as a preemptive counterspell. So too can Zur's Weirding, which basically pays life for instant speed discard. Blue's secondary element is Bounce, which makes blue work in the opposite direction of Black. While black destroys the board to get things from getting there, blue prevents things from reaching the board at all. Everything can't be countered, so this leads to Blue returning that which it can't yet handle. Ultimately, blue lets things on the board if it can't handle them , then sends it back. Black handles things before they hit the board, and prevent something from reaching it if they can't handle it yet.

    Black discard strategies have a field day against bargain. They need to have certain cards in their opening hand to go off. Granted, you cannot keep Bargain at bay forever, but Unmasking the Rector or Tutor from their opening hand can be devastating. At the same time, I find that blue countermagic has a very easy time against Bargain, assuming you play the way I do. #1 Misdirection can be outright devastating to bargain if they try to Duress or Soul Feast you. #2 Foil can be devastating if you manage to get a Skirge or a Rector with it.
  3. Cateran Overlord New Member

    Sorry, but I had to cut this into two parts. I kept getting a server error until I cut this down to a more manageable size :D

    However, there is a crippling way to stop Bargain cold for both of these Bargain's massive weak link is that recently many of them have been playing only one Will in their deck. If you can manage to get the Will from them, then they basically lose. The only thing left for them to do is to try and beat you down with the skirge, and that doesn't bode too well. Similarly, if blue Quashes Soul Feast, that likewise is game pretty much.

    Stompy, however, if you've ever seen the match, is absolutely TERRIBLE vs. bargain. I'm not sure what Bargian decks and Stompy decks near you look like, but where I am bargain typically goes off very fast against stompy due to a simple lack of disruption. Once Bargain goes off, Stompy is the one deck that is completely unable to stop them as it has no discard against them like Black, so it cannot stop element sof the combo early. It has no counters like Blue, so it cannot stop Soul Feast and Will from going off. It can't get rid of the Bargain like White, unless they were lucky and got a Lyrist on the board, although that merely delays Bargain, and just can't hurt them as fast as Red, nor can it keep one land untapped to bluff or actually use a shock or have a seal on the board.

    However, you are massively correct in that Bargain is kept in check because it IS terrible :D

    Now, when I look at replenish, I see discards and counters as not gunning for the enchantments obviously, but rather gunning for a) the Replenish or b) the tutors or c) the attunement. Once again, Black's LD and Blue's bounce come to the rescue. Replenish MUST hit 4 mana to go off, but rarely does even then. Blue and Black take advantage of this by bouncing back and destroying those lands to set themselves up. Then, when Replenish tries to go off, either blue will counter it or black will have prevented it from going off. Right now though, I've written a lot, so tell me your thought/arguments to all of this.
  4. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Force of Will - Touche.
    Daze - I play T1. Nobody uses it.
    Force Spike - I play T1. I'm the only guy I know that uses it.
    Foil - I play T1. People use Force of Will instead.
    Hydroblast/BEB - Only in sideboard, and by then I have Pyroblast/REB.

    And very few blue players bounce as much as they should (I do).
  5. Apollo Bird Boy

    You're playing the Scald. Obviously you've already been to the sideboard. And you're playing it on the second turn, so You have no mana for Pyro or REB. It is good against blue, but you made it sound like it was an auto win, and it definitely isn't.

  6. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    It's not an auto-win against blue. Nothing is. Never said it was. But it IS hard to counter on the second turn, and if blue doesn't, it becomes a near auto-win.
  7. Almindhra Magic's Bitch

    Why wasn't blue #1?...What was #1?...If it was white I'm going to piss my pants...

    I don't like blue, but it is the best colour...

    ( see above Gamalon )
  8. Lythand Veteran CPA Member

    I like blue. Its the best because of its controle enviroment. But if any one is watching, blue is actually taking a turn towards a blue beatdown. And Quash I have to say is one of my favorites

    Istanbule: Blue can counter on the first turn before it even plays any land using either Foil or Force of Will
  9. Seeker of Truth New Member


    Blue wasn't #1, but it was a close second, perhaps because (or despite) this thread. Actually, I think white was one of the lowest colors, which also surprised me because white was always (I thought) the color beginners gravitate towards because it's like playing the "good guys" (or black if you're one of those twisted antisocial types :p). One of the first real constructed decks I made was a mono-white Sacred Mesa deck, and it took me weeks to find four Crusades to fill it out. I've always liked white, since I'm a "good guy" kind of person, but apparently that sentiment isn't shared by the people who voted.

    Green was #1, by a slim margin, because stompy is easy to play and big creatures are fun to play with. Plus, people who came into Magic during, say, Ice Age or so probably took pity on green, which at that time really was at its weakest point, and the "green got screwed" complaints are still a part of Magic even today, when there are so many powerful green cards out there.

    Cateran Overlord:

    I've posted in another thread about a tournament caliber player where I live who bragged about his Turbo-Bargain deck that consistently wins on turn 3. I've figured out most of the decklist and I think it is pretty darn fast, but he still lost a match to (guess what?) a Stompy player. The Stompy player did 13 damage by turn 3, and even though the Bargain player could lay all the cards in the combo, he couldn't fulfill the "going off" portion because he was only at 7 life and could only draw 6 cards, a far cry from the 19 he could normally draw. Stompy, played correctly, can deal a lot of damage quickly, and against Bargain, where a player needs to keep a high life total to draw cards, dealing early damage can stop the combo cold.


    Your portrayal of tournament-level Magic once again reaffirms my suspicions that the top level of competition is far too brutal for me.


    So why do you people like blue so much? I'm still baffled. Is it the power? Complexity? The satisfaction of knowing you're playing a deck the average stompy-playing newbie wouldn't be able to make heads nor tails of? The sadistic pleasure of watching an opponent play spell after spell only to find you saying, "Counter that. Bounce that. Counter that. Counter that. Bounce that. Morphling."? Enlighten me, because I personally still don't have a clue.

    Actually, why doesn't everyone just explain why they voted the way they did? I'd be interested in seeing why people like certain colors over another. And just for fun (emphasis on FUN), why don't we all tell everyone our least favorite color, and why we feel that way, too?

    I voted for green because I'm still a newbie at heart, and I'm a sucker for all those green mana producers, even if I have nothing to cast with that mana. Back in the days (of Mirage block) I liked Rogue Elephants and Mtenda Lions, and before that, Elvish Rangers and Fyndhorn Elves. The article in the Duelist about tournament-caliber Stompy was my official conversion from white to green, and I've been a fan of green ever since.

    My least favorite color used to be blue for a long time. I'm still bitter over a 5CG deck I lost to that contained several Tradewind Riders. I remember that another person was watching the game, and when the Riders hit the table, he told me, "You might as well concede already." I didn't, of course, and I watched as his Riders began to bounce all my creatures back to my hand, and I was eventually beaten by a pair of Spike Feeders.

    Now, however, I think red has to be my least favorite color. Red has just lost so much of the energy it had during the Tempest and Mirage days, and all the decks involving red these days seem to be LD decks, and I don't particularly care for LD. Actually, I don't think I care much for control decks in general, but right now, I'd say red is my least favorite.
  10. Ura Feline Lord of the Pit

    First off I'll say that blue is my favorite color, and has been for a LONG time. But there are reasons why. Most people and its sounds like alot of the people who have been posting only consider blue for counters and bounces, but if thats all you can consider blue for then its no wonder you don't like it. If thats all it was I wouldn't like it either. But blue is far more in depth than just countering everything and bouncing what it can't. Blue is the manipulator, the monkey wrench in your battle plans. Blue is the color that uses stealth and subterfuge in its tactics far more than any other color. Blue is the color that can do with a 3/3 creature what most other colors need a 7/7 for.
    I personally have never liked green, its far to simplistic for me. I use it as a support color but could never use it by itself, I'd bore myself to tears. I just find nothing exciting about, play big creature, attack with big creature, deal damage and kill with big creature. Theres no real thought involved in it, no subtle tactics, its either live or die, attack or not.
    I understand why most new players gravitate to green because it is simple to play and understand.
    Blue is the color that really makes you think about every little thing you do and forces you to think 3 or 4 turns ahead. Even if you have counters you have to consider everyone as if its your last so you don't squander it on a lawnmower elf when the thorn elemental is coming next.
    One of my favorite blue cards is Whim of Volrath cause its fun to screw around with the colors and color words and use some bizzar combination of cards to victory rather than a plain boring creature beat down.
    Blue introduces confusion into the environment and makes the opponent think about what he or she is doing and can often make them second guess them selves. It basically comes with built in mind tricks. Which although most people don't like, are part of the game.
    War isn't meant to be pretty or easy, its meant to be challenging and thought invoking. Its also meant to be fun and I think blue has certain qualities that no other color can come close to having that make it unique and help to keep the environment from dying into dullness.
    Things like Shimmer and Reality Twist give the game that wonderful monkey wrench that makes your opponents groan and grumble but makes them feel good if they can get around it and defeat you anyways.
    Blue is far from impossible to beat, I wish that weren't so, but if you keep your cool and think, blue can be beaten.
  11. Lythand Veteran CPA Member

    I like blue because it was one of the 3 colors I had in my first deck of about 150 cards. Yes some of us who didnt have a clue on how to play magic made some of these outrageous decks with well over 40 (that was the standard deck size then). I didnt have any magic friends to teach me how to play. I picked up the rules book and taught myself. Played in my first tournament and got beat down by weenie green. Anyway I tried making a blue deck and someone told me blue sucks and it will never win. From that point on i was determind to show he was wrong. I was on a personal commitmnet to make ole blue the domaneering factor. So blue and I got to be good friends. Now that I am a more advanced Magic player with a braoder spectrum of colors and combos under my belt, I see where blue can be boring. All it is is Counter go..counter..go..for like 7 rounds and the its Morphling go.. I think what little excitment I get from playing this sort of blue is the intensity to be in complete controle. You have it in your mind you will dominate..and you do so for 7 rounds. Its a feeling of power. People say there is no strategy to blue, but there is. Its knowing what to handle in the situation and thinking 3 turns ahead.
    So with all respect, I like blue as a deck to play. But since I am a veteran player, I can play anything. Just hand me a stack of cards and some land and I can compete.
  12. Almindhra Magic's Bitch

    Blue should have been voted #1...i hate to say it, but its true...And green?...Thats so boring...Oo, big creature...Oo, lots of mana...Oo, big creature get even bigger...Blah...Blue is the freakout colour...It just sits...And you're thinking about what to play next even more attentively than against any other colour...

    And when I started I chose white and black, duel coloured deck...But blue always prevails when the Magic player grows in maturity
  13. nodnarb24 Supreme Overlord/The Rat King

    whenever i play with or against blue i know it is going to be a long game. Because when someone trys to play something that will make the game faster or turn the game in someones favor blue comes along and counters it. Also it hard to win a game in blue within 20min because there aren't many good creatures. Also no one will play anything good until the person with blue is tapped out hoping they don't have a force of will or anyother alternate casting cost counterspell. Which makes the game even longer. On plenty occassion the game ended with someone drawing out or the person with blue makes a mistake or good play.
  14. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    ...those are the very same reasons I love blue. Your opponent is forced to THINK. How much mana does the blue player have untapped? How many counterspells have I already seen, and how many more is he likely to have? Assuming that I have three cards in hand and the blue player has two, can I cast all three and thus force one of them through? If so, which one should I force through? Will the blue player fall for it?

    It also makes the blue player think. My game improved significantly, for example, when I stopped countering stuff like people casting Swords to Plowshares on my Archivist. It's not just knowing how to counter, it's knowing WHAT to counter that turns a blue player from an irritation into a serious problem.

    Blue also has to consider how it's going to go about dealing with threats that hit the board early; I realized rather quickly that sheer countermagic wasn't going to be enough, because if my opponents played first or second turn threats, I was going to have a hard time dealing with them.

    Blue is the color of thought, according to theme, and that's what it provokes in the game as well. I'm all for it, instead of mindlessly casting fat creatures and burn and just swarming over and over.
  15. Ura Feline Lord of the Pit

    Once again I have to say this,


    If all you think blue is is counters then its obvious you don't know how to play it. Yes counters are an integral part of blue but they don't win games by themselves, its like burn being a part of red but that burn can kill you and nobody complains about dealing 20+ points of damage in 3 turns from burn spells. But if one counter pops up in defense look out, the dung is gonna fly now.
    I very rarely ever put more than 6 counters in a deck at all if I'm playing blue. 6 out of 40 non-land cards isn't that much. Blue is also the best card drawing color by a long shot. Black is good with necro and bargain, but it can't beat blue with things like Stroke and the gyser around. Or dare I say it, Ancestral Recall.

    Blue has plenty of good creatures, things like Mahamoti Djinn or Siblant Spirit. As much as I'm sick of seeing it, its got Morphling, its got all the shapechangers like Vesuvan Doppleganger and Clone. Its got some great little flyers like Phantom Monster and its got lots of great effect creatures like Ophidian and Tradewind Rider.

    Blue is about more than just beating your opponent mindlessly, its uses strategy and thought to win. If you can't get beyond the simple "Me Grogg! Me bash!" tactic then you'll never be able to truely appreciate blue and you'll never ever like playing against it cause the first thing you'll always think is, "Great counters, I'm dead.".
    Try going all out against blue and just dumping your hand, you'd be surprised how well it can work if you make blue backpeddle quickly to the defensive, especially if blue player is totally depending on counters, one creature on the table can be game over for them. I've seen it happen more than once.

    *jumps around having a fit and pulling his fur out*

    Isn't there any reason to hate blue besides counter spells?

    [Edited by Ura on July 2nd, 2000 at 03:26 PM]
  16. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    21x Island

    3x Arcane Denial
    4x Mana Leak
    4x Counterspell
    2x Abjure

    4x Lord of Atlantis
    3x River Merfolk
    4x Manta Riders
    3x Rootwater Thief
    4x Seasinger
    4x Tidal Warrior
    4x Merfolk Looter

    Merfolk beatdown....oh yeah, and it has a little countermagic, too. :)
  17. Lythand Veteran CPA Member

    Green can just be as mindless as blue. Creature attack..creature attack..creature..attack...It is just all on what style you like playing..thats why blue is is green..and red is red..hey all have a just happens to be slow and time consuming..on the other hand its more of a chess game with blue..where as red its burn go. Take a rising waters deck. There is some counter but it is an intense deck to play. I know I couldn't just pick up a rising waters deck and play like I been playing for 4 years. I would have to practice because thats the intensity of blue. There is more to blue then counter go.
  18. manchot_13 New Member

    Blue is my favorite color, but it's more challenging than most antiblue people realize... If you're playing around where i play many people let the island hit the table then cede... but stompy isn't that much different, and it takes far less mind power... none at all really... it's like playing a wall... you never look at what your opponent is doing, just attack, attack, and hope he doesn't tell you you lost before you deal 20 damage with your rancored creatures...

    Yes, blue does take more thougth then that, and you'll at least know what deck your opponent is playing. With blue, it is a constant uphill battle to keep yourself ahead in cards and land, for the second you fall behind (or your opponent plays scragnoth (which is the most broken card ever made) you lose. sure, there's boomerang and unsummon and such but for the most part, once it get's through, unless you have a lot of creatures, you're in trouble...

    So ultimately, it takes a lot to perfect blue, to fine tune your deck and keep you prepared. And as the urza block cylcles out a lot of the blue everyone hates is leaving, and will leave room for the blue in mercadian block, particuarly prophecy (which i love).

    That is my rant
  19. Jaws10387 Hiding

    Blue is my favorite color too but it surprised that it is the most popular color. I'm going to ask aboutwhat the most popular color is at another magic website. I'll post the results tomorrow.
  20. TomB Administrative Assistant

    ...go take a look at the vote now! Blue is ahead in the re-vote by a lot!

    BTW, I am really sorry about the need for a re-vote. The Booth messed up on me, and I tried to fix it by clearing everything, but in the process I lost the data on the color vote. :(

    My personal vote was for Red, mostly for nostalgic reasons. I've always gotten a charge bolting something (pun intended), and I guess I still do.

    I'm really surprised Green didn't make a stronger showing in the 1st vote. I've never really liked Green because of it's lack of removal (surprise, surprise), but I know many casual players who can't stop talking about it. Blue, to me, is more for the seasoned Magic player, and, I thought, was in bad odor in these parts due to the Academy/Tide thing. I guess I was wrong about that, but then, I think that's the whole point about having these votes.

    So we can see what we, collectively, think about stuff like this.

    Interesting, huh? :D

Share This Page