Barbarian Invasion

[FoundationOfRancor]

Barbarians (26)
4 Barbarian Outcast
4 Balthor the Stout
4 Pardic Collaborator
4 Hell-Bent Raider
4 Balduvian Barbarian
4 Shivan Zombie
2 Kamahl

Fun Spells
4 Unholy Strength
4 Chainers Edict
2 Restless Dreams
4 Urza's Rage

Lands (20)
4 Sulfurous Springs
10 Mountain
6 Swamp

Anythoughts on the deck? I think the land count should be a bit higher, and I think the swamps should go higher if Im to play Outcast and Collaborator succesfully. Any thoughts?

 

[Demon]

I'd suggest swapping out Unholy Strength for Reckless Charge, if for no other reason than it frees up your swamps to pump the Pardic Collaborators. Plus, you can use each copy twice, or they can be relatively painless fuel for Restless Dreams.

I don't know if that would be enough to smooth out the mana base like you're talking about, but it would swing the ratio of red-to-black spells away from swamp dependence. Any thoughts/reasons why Sulfurous Springs instead of Urborg Volcano? I'm guessing it's the tempo loss from coming into play tapped, yes? Just wondering if it's worth taking damage for using coloured mana versus the cip tapped drawback.

Just some ideas, hope they're moderately helpful

 

[Dune Echo]

... is one of my favorite Legends of all time, just on art alone, however, you can't seriously expect to get 4RR in time to cast him before the game is over or your opponent has stablized.

At most, I'd play 1. That or give yourself some more lands. Also, you are playing black, is there a good way to recur him besides Life/Death? You can always discard him to Restless Dreams just like the above suggestion of Reckless Charge.

 

[FoundationOfRancor]

Reckless Charge is a good idea Demon! Ill use that one instead.

Dune, I just threw in Kamahl as an afterthought (Not to mention its one of my favorite legends too....), I'll slim it down to 1 I guess.

 

[Demon]

Hey thanks! I always thought I had a little skill for this game, now I've got proof!

After trimming one Kamahl from the deck, you've got one card slot left. With the discarding from Restless Dreams, and with the idea of recurring creatures brought up by DuneEcho (good point!), have you thought of using Malevolent Awakening?

Trade an Outcast with opponent's creature in combat, sac it to Awakening after damage is assigned, and bring Kamahl (or whoever) back from the dead? I know it doesn't really fit perfectly with the Barbarian theme, but it's useful, and you really only need the one in your deck.

Just some more thoughts,
Demon

 

[Dune Echo]

Malevolent Awakening 1BB
Enchantment OD(U)
1BB, Sacrifice a creature: Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand.

You want to throw Kamahl or your other cards back into the fray, and not your hand. Strands of Night does what you're thinking of, but it's activation requires you to sacrifice two swamps. This is not an easy solution. And Life/Death would be a hefty life loss to recur Kamahl.

 

[Demon]

I see what your'e saying, and you're right; Strands of Night puts the card back into play (you only sac one swamp, but you do have to pay 2 life btw) instead of into your hand, so it would be better for getting extra/surprise blockers or avoiding summoning sickness (if necessary).

I was thinking of using the Awakening on the opponents turn as a way to use your chump blockers/even traders to retrieve necessary cards so you can cast them on your next turn. That way you don't lose your momentum in the game and can use your mana the way you want to on your turn.

You're 100% right about Life/Death: a hit for 6 is waaay too much to take.

How about Zombify? No life loss, no creature sac, and card goes into play. With just one it would be a last call type of spell, but to get Kamahl into play again it *might* be worth it.

Just as a goofy thought, and one in which there is no seriousness whatsoever, what does everyone think about Twilight's Call? If you were playing this deck in a casual situation, this would be a crazy late game spell! With Kamahl's natural haste and some granted with a couple of Reckless Charges (it's casual, so let's assume you've got lots of mana sitting around) that would be a bloody turn that (hopefully) will have you dealing some damage and putting opponents' creatures back in the graveyard while still keeping yours! or most of yours anyway

I'm definitely a casual player through and through, I love bizarre plays like that!
cheers,
Demon

 

[Dune Echo]

you only sac one swamp, but you do have to pay 2 life btw

Oops! Thanks for rectifying that. Hrm, that doesn't sound too terrible now. However, the Swamp count in this deck is pretty light.

Twilight's Call just seems too expensive. It's like Kamahl, once you've reached that much mana, you should be already winning or your opponent stablized. Maybe in a slower environment though, it might work. Also, it's just going to be hard to pay it's casting cost.

Malevolent Awakening is possible to swap blockers with, but you really don't want to be tying up 1BB each turn on the hope that you'll win some sort of card advantage (also, the deck is mostly red instead of black). Unfortunately, that kind of thinking is more reactive than proactive, which does not have synergy with red. Also, due to the massive cost of using Malevolent Awakening multiple times per turn, I don't see you being able to use it more than once a turn (2BBBB for two uses), which doesn't make it as useful as it could be.

Zombify seems like an idea, but it's a Sorcery, slightly expensive, and this deck doesn't have a lot of room for it currently. It's really up to the player and what they want the deck to be able to do. Also, are there any other creatures really worth Zombifying in the deck?

 

[Demon]

No prob on the clarification; I agree that it isn't as bad as you first thought, but is still too costly to use with the low swamp count in this deck.

The more we discuss it, the more I agree with you. Malevolent Awakening is a very reactive card, and this deck is more of an aggressive nature. Also, you're right about the mana cost, the deck is more red than black so the black mana will likely be needed for other things, Collaborator's for instance.

I just threw in Twilight's Call as a fun card for casual play, it is pretty expensive and gives your opponent too much help for serious competition.

As for Zombify, yeah really the only guy you'll really want to bring back is Kamahl, so it isn't the best choice.

I can't really think of anything else to fill that last card slot - Vampiric Dragon briefly crossed my mind, but it's grossly expensive to cast. I might just suggest using that last slot for an extra swamp.

Ooh, wait! How about Flaming Gambit? Instant speed damage straight to the dome (unless they deflect it, of course)! Flashback to get him/her again, or take out another threat! Whaddaya think?

 

[Dune Echo]

I'm not too fond of these for one reason: They all essentially read "<Card name> does <this>. Opponent may counter <card name> if they do <this>."

The 1 slot should either be another land, or a additional finisher card. That's what Kamahl is anyway. I'm out of ideas other than Ghitu Fire.

 

[Demon]

I'm running out of ideas too, but I may have just had one last good surge of energy through the ol' noggin: Seize the Day.

Kamahl pokes something out of the way , everyone else attacks, Untap Kamahl, attacki for 6! Next turn, if there is one repeat the process and say "Next!"

I'm not bashing the ghitu fire idea btw, it's definitely a viable option. The only thing I don't like about it (versus STD) is that if it's countered or discarded, it's gone for good. STD at least has flashback to cover those possibilities.

Okay, I'm not going to use that acronym anymore, I'm creeping myself out

 

[Dune Echo]

Seize the Day is truly inspired for this deck!!! Heck, even if you can't use it for Kamahl, it's just a good card in general for the amount of high power creatures you have. Untap whatever survives and attack again.

 

[Demon]

I guess that first cup of coffee really does jazz up the brain waves! Too bad I didn't have it until 2:30 this afternoon

So, we may have us a winner in the contest for the final slot in the deck. It all now depends on what the creator says.

BTW, great deck FoundationOfRancor! I think a sign of a well-designed, tight deck is exactly what happened here in this thread: a strong debate about finding that one final piece to polish it off, with many different options (some more viable than others) but only one true solution. Well, at least currently it looks like one true solution.

Well, FoundationOfRancor, whaddaya think?

 

[Dune Echo]

Black:
4 Chainer's Edict
2 Restless Dreams

Red:
4 Balduvian Barbarian
4 Balthor the Stout
4 Barbarian Outcast
4 Hell-Bent Raider
1 Kamahl, Pit Fighter
4 Pardic Collaborator
4 Reckless Charge
1 Seize the Day
4 Urza's Rage

Gold:
4 Shivan Zombie

Lands:
12 Mountain
4 Sulfurous Springs
4 Swamp


One final idea: you could include Barbarian Rings, but this isn't neccessarily a faster deck, so it might not be so great because you could potentially take a lot of damage early and you don't want to ping yourself to death. Also, I changed the mana mix based on ratio of black to red cards.

Also, as useful as Balthor is, I'd suggest going down to 2 and upping your mana base by two more or adding two Fire Diamond.

 

[FoundationOfRancor]

Wow, Dune and Demon, thanks for taking my deck so seriouslly here.

You guys argue about all the ways to get kahmal into play from the graveyard, but is it really that strong even if you found the perfect card? We've allready decided more than one Kahmal is bad; it wouldnt make sense to put in cards that revolve around one card in your deck.

Death/life:
I like death for a different reason on the deck; all your creatures are relatively cheap, and it brings them back efficiently. What do you guys think about that?

Less swamps:
If theres less swamps in your last deck Dune, the Collaborators should go.

Seize the Day:
I REALLY like this suggestion, it could be the more efficient breaking point that Kahmal was supposed to be. I propose we completely cut kahmal for some more of these.

Heres my suggestion for the best deck:

Black:
4 Chainer's Edict
2 Restless Dreams (Easily replace this with Death anytime)

Red:
4 Balduvian Barbarian
4 Balthor the Stout
4 Barbarian Outcast
4 Hell-Bent Raider
4 Pardic Collaborator
4 Reckless Charge
2 Seize the Day
4 Urza's Rage

Gold:
4 Shivan Zombie

Lands:
12 Mountain
8 Swamp

As you can tell, no significant changes from Dune's last version.

Anyway...what are your thoughts?

 

[Dune Echo]

No problem, FoR. This looks like a fun deck to me, and it just caught my attention.

Life/Death instead of Restless Dreams is not a bad idea. You don't discard anything with it, and if you cut Kamahl entirely then you have a relatively painless and cheap recursion spell.

About the less amount of Swamps:
I forgot the condition of Barbarian Outcast. Your switch to more Swamps is a good idea. Sorry about that. You could try replacing Mountains with Tainted Peak or Sulfurous Springs.

I'm not sure if you should cut the Pardic Collaborators or not. There are technically less Swamps, but if you have two Swamps out, he's a nice threat to your opponent and you don't have to worry about over extending your hand to mass removal. However, if you're playing in Type II, there isn't as much mass removal as efficient targetted removal in most decks: AEther Burst, Chainer's Edict, Innocent Blood, Recoil, Repulse, etc. Depending on what you face most often, I would suggest you cut him. Think of him as having an optional upkeep of BB or B and you'll see how effective this card really is to you. If you cut him, consider the following as potential replacements:

Halberdier, 3R, Creature — Barbarian 3/1, Odyssey Common
First strike
His reputation precedes him-and so does his weapon.

Possessed Barbarian, 2RR, Creature -- Barbarian 3/3, Torment
Rare
First strike
Threshold - Possessed Barbarian gets +1/+1, is black, and has "2B, T: Destroy target red creature."

They're not great, but they're at least the same cc and a higher power. I mention the common because it will be easier for you to get your hands on.

I also still suggest cutting out at least one Balthor the Stout. He's strong in a Barbarian deck, yes, however, he's a 3cc creature in a deck full of 3cc spells. Also, since he's a Legend, you can't have more than one in play anyway. You really want to space out the potential of drawing him a little bit. Unfortunately, he's not as strong as Crusade or even Glorious Anthem.

Also, given the high mana curve of the deck, I'd suggest either some additional mass removal (Earthquake or Volcanic Spray), or some sort of way to speed up your mana.

- Dune Echo

Seize the Day... Also known as STD now... Purile humor: "I swing for X, give you an STD and I'm swinging for another X!"

 

[Demon]

I've been having fun with this too, and I love to help out when I can, FoR. I only wish I owned most of these cards so I could try it out too!

As another possible replacement for the Collaborators, in addition to those suggested by DuneEcho, I suggest Pardic Arsonist. Same cc, 3/3, and I prefer the threshold ability to that of the Possessed Barbarian. Personal preference, I guess.

Pardic Arsonist - 2RR - Creature--Barbarian - Torment uncommon Threshold - When Pardic Arsonist comes into play, it deals 3 damage to target creature or player.

I'm not too keen on the idea of Volcanic Spray (too little damage, hurts your own guys) or Earthquake (hurts your own guys) but DuneEcho (btw, am I spelling that right) does make a good point, a little more dd or removal wouldn't hurt.

I kinda like Shower of Coals for that purpose, espcecially after you reach threshold It is expensive, but I think it's versatility compensates for that nicely. Again, I think this is a case of personal preference.

On that note, anyone have any thoughts on the use of 1 or 2 Scorching Missiles as possible finishers?

 

[Dune Echo]

I did look at the Pardic Arsonist, but considering that this deck isn't a burn deck and is kind of slow, I'm not expecting it to make Threshold quickly.

If I am wrong, I would say that Pardic Arsonist is a better choice.

Volcanic Spray - I suggested this because it only deals 1 damage to all creatures, which wipes out all Elves, Goblin Soldiers, and other creatures that might make it out early with only 1 toughness, but leaves all your creatures intact. Also, it has Flashback. Earthquake however is variable and also can function as a kill card.

DuneEcho (btw, am I spelling that right)

Yeah, you are. Thanks. Just add a space inbetween the two.

Shower of Coals

Color= Red Type= Sorcery Cost= 3RR OD(U)
Text (OD): ~this~ deals 2 damage to each of up to three target creatures and/or players. ; Threshold - ~this~ deals 4 damage to each of those creatures and/or players instead. (You have threshold if seven or more cards are in your graveyard.)

Whoa, powerful stuff! Didn't they call this Cone of Flame at one point? This has potential, yeah, it's definitely a nice sweeper. It's up to FoR on this one.

Scorching Missile

Color= Red Type= Sorcery Cost= 3R OD(C)
Text (OD): Flashback {9}{R}. ; ~this~ deals 4 damage to target player.

Personally, I'm never fond of burn without versatility. If it can't remove a creature and your opponent can take the 4 easily, it's not a good card, IMO. Also, the Flashback is just a teensy bit too high for this already high mana curve deck.

 

[Demon]

Oops, quoted one card and not the others! Sorry

Dune Echo, good call on the scorching missiles re: flashback cost. As late game head shots they're not bad though, especially if there's a creature stall happening.

About the burn versatility of it: you're right about that too, it is limited that way. I'm just not really used to thinking about using burn spells on creatures (I've actually gotten into the practice of avoiding all burn that cannot target players; both targets is good, but I never use anything that can only hit creatures; is that bad? )

I like both the cc and the flashback of Volcanic Spray, I'm just wondering if it makes FoR's army more vulnerable than it needs to be to stuff like Afflict, Mutilate, random burn, etc.

 

[FoundationOfRancor]

Ok, I've been thinking about it.

I think the deck can go two ways: Keep Collaborator, and put in Shower of Coals. Possibly increase the land count, and since the deck would be geared for later game, 3 dwarves is probably enough.

The other is to cut the colaborator, and us Volcanic Spray. I think this is the better option, and I'll shoot out a new version:

Black:
4 Chainer's Edict
2 Life/Death

Red:
4 Balduvian Barbarian
3 Balthor the Stout
4 Barbarian Outcast
4 Hell-Bent Raider
1 SLOT
4 Shock
2 Volcanic Spray
4 Reckless Charge
2 Seize the Day
2 Urza's Rage

Gold:
4 Shivan Zombie

Lands:
12 Mountain
8 Swamp

I like Shock in here, mainly just to get off the 2 and 3 mana slot. I need to make it now, and playtest!