Abuse of Ninja

[TheCasualOblivion]

I have currently 2 thoughts on abusing Ninja

U/B flying/shadow w/bounce + creature kill
U/G Gaea's Skyfolk, scryb Sprites, Skyshroud Ridgeback, Blastoderm, Birds of Paradise

Ninja just seem made to be paired with Blastoderm

 

[Limited]

I think Ninja''s are going to be a way to control combat and will win through boardcontrol and not through beats.. Though your green creatures will hit hard and fast, you will need your mana to ninjitsu and to play new threats, which seems unlikely
Combining bounce and removal with the Ninja's seems the way to go, IMO.

 

[Notepad]

UB has the only ninjas. UB has the best evasion currently (well, sorta...white kinda has better fliers). You can dig in the past for better blue evasion. Both master control and domination of the board, so you have lots of utility.

That said, the best ninja decks will be UB. Green is a nice choice, but beatdown green goes better with red, I'd say. Blue or black gum up the gears. Though that combo with Blastoderm is awesome. (Without red backup or lots of black kill, he's gonna get chumped a lot, I can tell you from experience)

Then again, Shivan Wurm is a better combo with a faster beatdown deck featuring Blastoderm. ;-)

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

I disagree completely with evasion being the key to Ninja and here is why:

Ninjas have two powers, one they come with a surprise first hit with Ninjutsu, and the second is that when they hit, something good happens. The second point is the one people speculating on the value of Ninja are missing. Ninjas attack, and they are of no use when they are not attacking. Ninjas belong in a deck that attacks every single turn, and I don't think Ninjas are really going to have much of a place in a control oriented deck. Ninjas are going to give aggro decks disruption.

Evasion gets you the first hit with Ninjutsu, but then the Ninja is stuck on the table with nothing to do. If all/most of your creatures have evasion, then your opponent just blocks your Ninja. That doesn't work out in the long run. Evasion/Ninja decks need more help, and would need either cards to give the ninja themselves evasion, and I don't think for a minute that legend is enough, or lots of removal/bounce. I think Ninja decks are going to have to devote way too many cards to creatures for this to work.

The real key to NInja I'm thinking is giving your opponent something else to block. The first thing that comes to mind is having a green rush deck with ninja support. You can block the Ninja, or the Blastoderm, your choice. Make them make painful choices about blocking, especially when you have Ninjutsu up your sleeve. Putting out piles and piles of creatures gives the Ninja you have already put out somewhere to hide, and lets them hit with their abilities again more easily. I'm thinking a Ninja deck with 34-40 creatures, with the Ninjas replacing Sorceries and Instants in the deck, and just being a beatdown/disruption deck, with the Ninjas for the disruption. Basking Rootwalla, River Boa, Wild Mongrel, Birds of Paradise for the sole evasion in the deck, Blastoderm and possibly Spiritmonger. Definitely pack Rancor, and don't be shy about putting it on the Ninjas to let the trample damage trigger their abilities.

 

[mythosx]

I think evasion is something to consider. Let's conisder say ornithopter. Both blue and black and use. Very hard to avoid on the second turn...bamph...low level ninja...get desired effect. Lay it down next turn and repeat.....

 

[Notepad]

Originally posted by TheCasualOblivion
Evasion gets you the first hit with Ninjutsu, but then the Ninja is stuck on the table with nothing to do. If all/most of your creatures have evasion, then your opponent just blocks your Ninja. That doesn't work out in the long run.

Agreed. Blue card draw and black tutors can easily fetch you the legendary unblockable pump guy.

Digging in the past, its possible to build a mockup of B/U madness (huh?...) but rather than madness, you can use the mechanism for dumping a wonder. Maybe even filth. From there, the extra cards bounced to hand can be discarded to the UB discard mechanisms. A very sloppy idea, but it just might work...(For once, something to use Putrid Imp!!! )

I honestly don't really know what ninja deck will work best. I don't care. I don't feel like playing the turds. Somone who does will find a way to abuse them, and everyone else and their dog will make a ninja deck. You can yawn at a line of four thousand ninja decks when you try to play casual on MTGO.

-Sefro, who still says the alternate costs of ninjas will prove most annoying at the very least, abusive to be likely

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

good point SeFRo, Whether anyone figures out how to make Ninja work or not, there will be thousands of Ninja decks on Online, bad ones and otherwise.

 

[Notepad]

Quote from Paul Sottosanti's guest spot in Latest Developments
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af49

At one point, the Ninjutsu costs in the set were aggressive enough that a deck nicknamed “Ninfinity,” combining an Ornithopter-based Affinity build with a number of cheap Ninjas, was the deck to beat in the FFL.

Well, looks like the Ornithopter prediction was correct. Looks too, like we have a clear idea on how to make a ninja deck work.

Fortunately, yes, they have increased the ninja costs. But when you think about it, the ones we've seen aren't that expensive. In fact, R&D likes to claim they've fixed stuff when really they only sort of fixed it.

Did they actually succeed in fixing this mechanic? Or, like Wild Mongrel and Affinity, will it prove to have slipped through some *other* loophole? Time will tell.

With this quote in mind, though. One has to beware.

 

[Istanbul]

I'm going to disagree with both CasualOblivion and SeFRo. Yes, I will agree that you'll see a bajillion crapulent ninja decks, where the ninja would have been better off being some other card. But I also feel that Ninja DO belong in a control build. Think about it...what have we seen? Card-drawing. Reanimation. Creature killing. These are all abilities you often see as one-shots, but control decks will love slipping a Whispersilk Cloak onto a ninja and sniping a creature every turn, or having their own personal Howling Mine, or...well, you get the idea. Honestly, I compare these things to Necrites and Ophidians and such...I don't even care about their Ninjitsu costs.

 

[jorael]

From Paul Sottosanti at www.magicthegathering.com:

The following things may or may not be true about Betrayers:

At one point, the Ninjutsu costs in the set were aggressive enough that a deck nicknamed “Ninfinity,” combining an Ornithopter-based Affinity build with a number of cheap Ninjas, was the deck to beat in the FFL.

If this piece of information is true, some kind of aggro deck was running rampant. Myr Enforcer is 4/4. Block it, your blocker dies, don't block: NINJA'S!

Enforcer is probably a bit cheaper to put down than a Blastoderm, but in green that should not pose a problem. The question is: is this still viable now that the ninjitsu costs are higher?

I think both aggro and control could work with the ninja's. We'll see if that is true after BoK comes out.

 

[Captain Caveman]

I probably be one of the four thousand that tries a Ninja deck, if I get the cards. I'm always looking for simple ideas to work with(caveman and all) so my first few attempts will be:

C.I.P. Ninja's(ninja and creatures that have comes into play abilities.)
Such as:
Chittering Rats
Ravenous Rats

or...
Eternal Witness
Viridian Shaman

Of course, this only matters if its unblocked. But if my opponent does not block then its additional card advantage.


Then I'll move on the silly stuff like: Samurai and Ninja as a team.(block my Samurai or face my Ninja)


Last but not least, I'll do you BlueSkies Ninja thingy.


Betrayers looks like a fun set. I'm looking forward to Shoals, Ninja, Genju(sp), and a Toshio Umezawa for my 2HG deck.

 

[Mikeymike]

Originally posted by TheCasualOblivion
I disagree completely with evasion being the key to Ninja and here is why:

Ninjas have two powers, one they come with a surprise first hit with Ninjutsu, and the second is that when they hit, something good happens. The second point is the one people speculating on the value of Ninja are missing. Ninjas attack, and they are of no use when they are not attacking. Ninjas belong in a deck that attacks every single turn, and I don't think Ninjas are really going to have much of a place in a control oriented deck. Ninjas are going to give aggro decks disruption.

Evasion gets you the first hit with Ninjutsu, but then the Ninja is stuck on the table with nothing to do. If all/most of your creatures have evasion, then your opponent just blocks your Ninja. That doesn't work out in the long run. Evasion/Ninja decks need more help, and would need either cards to give the ninja themselves evasion, and I don't think for a minute that legend is enough, or lots of removal/bounce. I think Ninja decks are going to have to devote way too many cards to creatures for this to work.

The real key to NInja I'm thinking is giving your opponent something else to block. The first thing that comes to mind is having a green rush deck with ninja support. You can block the Ninja, or the Blastoderm, your choice. Make them make painful choices about blocking, especially when you have Ninjutsu up your sleeve. Putting out piles and piles of creatures gives the Ninja you have already put out somewhere to hide, and lets them hit with their abilities again more easily. I'm thinking a Ninja deck with 34-40 creatures, with the Ninjas replacing Sorceries and Instants in the deck, and just being a beatdown/disruption deck, with the Ninjas for the disruption. Basking Rootwalla, River Boa, Wild Mongrel, Birds of Paradise for the sole evasion in the deck, Blastoderm and possibly Spiritmonger. Definitely pack Rancor, and don't be shy about putting it on the Ninjas to let the trample damage trigger their abilities.

Great points all around, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss their control abilities as well, which make a dangerous combo with their natural aggressive nature.

All you need is a reusable way to make all your creatures unblockable, and then their attacking abilities aren't wasted. Then you have yourself an aggro-control deck.

Freaking ninjas, another mechanic that makes Wonder better.

But, that is a cool creature mechanic, lots of different directions it can be taken effectively and for fun.

How about Bedlam? Hook it up with some ninjas that help control opposing creatures, and/or Propaganda. You get damage and (hopefully) multiple effects every turn and outrace their aggression.

I like a little Shadow Rift backup too.

Hmmmm....

Getting a deck idea. Hi-Ya.

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

I'm really starting to think that whether or not Ninjas are themselves effective, its not going to be possible to make it mana efficient. The biggest problem I see for a deck really focused on Ninja is mana. You're bouncing stuff, and while you're gaining card advantage, control, and disruption, you are losing tempo a bit. You do have to recast the old creatures, you do have to play evasion effects. Also, you're playing a deck that has the ability to be wildly inconsistent. I tested one with 12 Ninja, and that wasn't enough for a deck that was built around them and depended on them. I'm not sure what going to 15-20 will do to the mana curve/tempo.

I'm not saying at all that Ninja are unplayable, I'm thinking right now they're perfectly playable, having a few in a deck. I'm thinking a Ninja deck might not be. That's why I went with Aggro-Ninja. Its the only mana and tempo efficient way to do it, if its possible at all.

Having Ninja in a control deck, or any deck should be just fine. I'm trying the concept of a dedicated Ninja deck.

 

[Striking Dragon]

What about Cover of Darkness, and then run some artifact / black hate? Or, Dauthi Embrace?

Cloud of Faeries also works as an evasion creature, and thalakos seer has the added bonus of a leaves play ability.

 

[Mikeymike]

Great call on Thalakos Seer idea, that's two abilities in one card that help the ninja. Cover of Darkness should be pretty effective too, though there are still a bunch of artifacts running around to block.

Dauthi Embrace is a solid card, but it activation cost with interfere with the Ninjitsu cost (likely XBBUU every time you want to successfully Ninja).

Cloud of Fairies isn't bad, but it doesn't truly allow you to crack out ninjas faster (that I can tell). You attack with it and Ninja-swap. You still need 2 extra mana to play it this turn. Or you can play it the next turn and get your lands back for free, but they don't have haste so you can't really take advantage of the Free mana to use on Ninjitsu.

 

[Reverend Love]

Bounce the Unblockables of Soldier or Artist, OR Ornithropter for Ninjas. Use Vial out your critters at their EOT. Use shard as either on defense or to bounce a Ninja to hand. Playing something with Tolarian Winds, Careful Studys and Wonder/Filth is probably easier but this is what I came up with while falling alseep last night.

Creatures: 23
2 Higure, the Still Wind
1 Ink Eyes, Servant of Oni
2 Mistblade Shinobi
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Throat Slitter
4 Escape Artist
1 Metathran Soldier
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
2 Ornithropter

Spells: 4
4 Chainer’s Edict

Artifacts: 9
4 Head-Butts of Doom A.K.A Cranial Plating
2 Crystal Shard
3 Aether Vial
1 Oblivion Stone

Lands: 23
4 Seat of Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
11 Other lands of your fancy

 

[Striking Dragon]

Cloud of faeries works because you cast it for free, and attack with it the next turn.

Shrieking Drake has very interesting interactions with ninjas, especially if they can be vialed in (prevents targetted removal).

Will-o-the-wisp is nice because it can survive being blocked.

Equilibrium may or may not work in this deck, a three drop that requires more mana to actually be useful, but holds much promise.

 

[Rooser]

Here is my rough draft on a UB build.

Land (24)
Insert land here

The Ninjas (20)
Mistblade Ninja x4
Ninja of Deep Hours x4
Okiba-Gang Shinobi x4
Throatslitter x4
Hegure, Still Wind x3
Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni x1

The Pre-Ninjas (16)
Shrieking Drake x4
Cavern Harpy x4
Ornithopter x4
Flying Men or Cloud Sprite x4

Use Shrieking Drake and Cavern Harpy to Keep Ninjas in your hand. Once you get out Hegure, you can make whichever ninja has the most utility at the moment unblockable and forget the whole bouncy combat trick business. Don't forget that ninjas can replace other ninjas!

This build gives you recursive bouncing and destroying, as well as recursive drawing and discarding. Eventually you will sap your opponents of resources, all while continuing to beat them down.

 

[Gizmo]

In the end Ninjitsu are exactly like every other 'saboteur' creature. Play them the same way you would any other saboteurs.

Ninjitsu is, I believe, a Limited format mechanic like Morph. It doesn't really warrant paying much attention to trying to 'abuse' it, because it's not really abusable in the slightest,

 

[Rooser]

@Gizmo: You're the same wrongasaurus that said Ornithopter would never make it in Affinity.

This is the casual players alliance. Let us dweebs have fun with our theme decks. The title of this thread wasn't "OMG I WILL WIN TEH PTQ WIT TEH NIJJORRZ!!1!!~!"

Also, I think these guys are a bit more versatile than your standard saboteurs. They act in a way that makes all of your creatures sabotuers, and the return to hand action makes them usable with things that have CIP effects.