Discussion in 'CPA/WOTC Magic Issues' started by avengingangel, Feb 14, 2000.

  1. Exactly. I have an Unlimited Black Lotus, Time Walk, and Mox Ruby, and I payed BIG bucks for them. Not as an investment, but to play with them. I would love to be able to rip new copies from any given set, even if they weren't Type II legal.

    I thought this was the "Casual Player's Alliance"? If so, then you shouldn't care about the "book value" of your cards, but rather how much fun you can have playing them.

    I have one Type I deck with my 3 authentic Power 9 cards and proxies of the rest. Let me tell you, they are incredibly fun to play with! It's like you're playing a different game.

    So, I would love for WotC to reprint the Power 9. As for the retailers, think about this - how many times can you sell the few Power 9 cards you have, versus what kind of sales would you have if Power 9 were available in packs? And, earlier versions of popular cards are almost always more sought after, and therefore more valuable, so the older cards wouldn't depreciate much.

    [Edited by Mr_Pestilence (02-18-2000 at 02:20 PM).]
  2. Ed Sullivan CPA Founder, Web Guy

    Dune - then what is wrong with using proxies?

    And you never know, Mike Long might try and sneak a Babe Ruth card in to his deck. :)

  3. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    That's what this place if for Angel. I whole heartedly agree and disagree with you. It's not fair, but since when has life ever been fair? Proxies just aren't good enough. And the people I used to play with just don't allow it.
  4. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Okay, the Chaos Turtle will concede a point (ye gods!) but only partway.

    I'm all for a collector's set, though I really would hate to see square corners, but who really cares.

    I'm still thoroughly opposed to reprinting the discontinued 'power' cards (including Juzam, etc.) in a basic set, which by definition must be tournament legal, and which this thread was originally about.

    The reprint policy, as far as I understand it, would not technically preclude a special set of playable, but not legal, cards, so long as they don't have a black/white border and particularly if the back was different.

    Hasbro, additionally, may not be bound by the "reserve list".

    One very cool option would be to make foil premium versions of these cards (they did it with Serra Angel) but the drawback is that they would still be incredibly difficult to get.

    All in all, let me clarify that, if the cards in question were reprinted, I would snap them up in an instant (listening, Hasbro? ;) ). But, I think it would be unfair, and not to me -- like I said, I own none -- but to those who have paid big money or traded heavily for them.
    And I'll reiterate this: Playing with them would not be as much fun (for me, anyway) as you'd think; there's no challenge, just draw yours first and you win. After all, with cards like that, who the hell needs the comparatively useless cards they are making now? For all our compliments that WotC has done right by the casual player with these last 2 sets, why undo that now?
  5. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    AWWW ED! There's nothing wrong with proxies. They just don't give me that special feeling that real cards do when I'm all by myself. (Just kidding.) Eh, I've tried proxies before and it's just not as fun for me. And I am really starting to agree with Chaos Turtle. I was playing my Mono-Brown deck against my wife last night and both games, all she had was a single Island both games. Of course, I was busting out tons of stuff in my first 4 turns and did 19 points of damage in those four turns. It sucked. It sucked for me, for her. It was so boring. She could do anything. I was doing everything. Personally, I'm consigning my Mono-Brown deck to multiplayer only and as a way to mess with tourney players while thinking my deck is legal. (As long as I'm not paying an entrance fee, who cares what I'm playing!)

    But Chaos Turtle's right, it's whoever draws their's first. Yippie-skip, let's have some fun, roger the last one bending over. I'd like to have the power nine (actually, I just want The Lich, Raging River, Berserk, and the Moxes, but I could settle for just Raging River). But's not worth massacring my playmates. It's no fun.

    -Dune Echo
    ... coming back from the dark side of the Force.
  6. Thanks for making my point.

    It's not about YOU having the Power 9, etc.

    It's about EVERYBODY having access to the old cards. If everybody was packing, then I can assure you you would not trounce every opponent, every game.

    It didn't happen then, and it wouldn't happen now.


    [Edited by Mr_Pestilence (02-21-2000 at 02:16 PM).]
  7. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Boy, kinda late to jump in the argument here...

    The most likely reason you wouldn't beat your opponent every time is because you're probably not going first. The way I see it, the main reason why the Power 9 has not been reprinted is because they're unbalancing because they SPEED up the game. As Dune Echo wrote in his article, there's basically no difference between his mono-brown deck that can win in 3 turns, an Academy deck that win in ONE turn, and a well-tuned deck with a Power 9 that can win on ONE turn (taking a stretch here, I don't know of any personally but I do remember reading them).

    Because like it or not, you can say I'll just use my Black Lotus and Mox to get out that Serra so I can win in 5 turns. Then I'll say, why wait 5 turns? Surely there's got to be a quicker way; that's 4 extra turns my opponent has.

    With all the deck-builders here, I'm sure someone can come up with a turn 1 kill deck using the power 9.

    So as I said before, they'd be nice to have, but shouldn't reprint.
  8. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    side note here: Lotus, mox, channel, fireball. Who hasn't heard of that first turn win, spiderman?

    Also, I am opposed to reprinting the Power 9, they were legitimately banned. So were a few other cards. The ones I don't like saying goodbye to are the helpers. Elves, for instance, and lightning bolt (#1 on my tearful farewell list). Wizards should reprint some of the old cards as new rares, possibly under new names. I'd buy lightning bolt as a new rare, if I could play with it. same goes for Juzam (which isn't THAT fantastic). See my point? the power 9 are overpowered, but some other cards aren't.
  9. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Exactly. Which is why channel was finally banned. People seemed to push for the Power Nine however, not other "minor" banned cards.

    Making lightning bolt a rare! Sounds good to me... since I've got like 20 when they were common :)
  10. Alright. I don't agree with it, but apparently the majority don't want the Power 9 reprinted in any context, whether they would be Type II legal or not.

    That being the case, what would you want reprinted? Serra, Sengir, and Lightning Bolt are obvious, but how about Arcane Denial? Dual Lands? Shivan Dragon? Swords to Plowshares? Hell, why not take out the banned cards, replace them with Dual Lands, and just reprint 4th Edition? (I loved that set).

    Anyway, what would you like to see reprinted in a future set?

  11. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Personally, I don't care if any of those are reprinted or not, because I have all of them.

    In terms of new players getting a chance at them, will they play with them? I mean, honestly, in the tourney format where they could have been used (Extended), I don't think any of those cards were used except Dual Lands, StP, and Bolt. So I guess, theoretically, those would be okay.
  12. ChasDen Moderator

    Mentioned above – “side note here: Lotus, mox, channel, fireball. Who hasn't heard of that first turn win, spiderman?”

    I had to jump in when I saw this, I hate the banning of cards. Very, very selfish reason though. When I first started playing, I started collecting cards to play the famous turn one or turn two kill using channel. I traded, bought, begged but never stole. And I finally got 4 channels and within 2 months poof – they are banned.

    Oh well I got to play it for a month or so.

  13. Apollo Bird Boy

    I think that bringing back the power 9 would not be a good idea. If they're in a legal set, broken decks will immediatey sweep the tournament scene. "So print them in a collector's set that isn't legal." Imagine playing with your friend. You both bought 4 packs of these cards. You got the 2 Laces 2 Sword of the Chosens (or whatever). You're friend got Lotus, 2 moxes, and a Time walk. You're "fun" games aren't going to be so fun anymore, are they? Until you refuse to play them. Then, you're friend is stuck with useless cards because they aren't worth anything because they are in a banned set. Now he's mad.
    However, in today's environment, many other cards would be perfectly fine. Morphling is better than Serra, Sengir, and Shivan anyway. They just made a Royal Assassin reprint. I loved the idea of reprinting fourth edition, except I'm still up in the air on the dual lands.

  14. Ura Feline Lord of the Pit

    I personnaly think that the idea of making a collectors set of the old power cards is to make a 100 card set and just sell the complete set in the box like they did with anthologies or whatever it was called. That way everyone has the same access to it and nonw of this getting a crap booster.
    As for everything they make having to be type 2 legal. Since when does a casual player care about type 2, type 1, or anything, don't we just play for fun. I personally think that that kind of printing policy can be a step in the wrong direction for magic because it makes it more into a "tournament players only" rather than a game you play to have fun and if you want to get serious then your welcome to.
    While I firmly believe in making newer and better sets I don't think we should just leave all the old cards in the past and call them mistakes or whatever. It was those cards and the way it was back then that got the players in the first place. These cards shouldn't be forgotten and called down, but perhaps rather placed on a shelf and treated with respect or if played with be used for fun to power craw worms and hurloon minotaurs rather than first turn bloodlusted ball- lightning, berzerk kills.
    I've got alot of these old cards
    (including a raging river I don't use if your still seeking one Dune) and I sometimes lend them to my trusted friends in my gaming group. They make all these great decks out of them but I still beat them regularly using type 2 and extended class decks. You just have to know how to beat and break the old combos. They aren't carved in stone or all powerful, even though they seem pretty close.
    In short, I give the idea of a collectors box set a thumbs up. While it wouldn't be legal in tourny's, those cards were fun to play with, but just like every other powerful thing in our lives they require responsibility when used, just like driving a car or running with scissors.
    Fun is only what you make it out to be, so enjoy, accept, and avoid critizing if you can. This subject will probably be argued long after I stop playing the game, but those are my two cents.
  15. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    Ura, I like your idea. A collector's box of out of print fun stuff. And for the tourney players, all the restricted cards, just so you can compete! :) I don't think the second part of that will ever happen and I wonder if it's even remotely close to a good idea, but I really would love to see False Orders, Illusionary Mask, Time Vault (errata'd of course) and Raging River again. These cards were interesting and need to be brought back. Was Time Vault broken after errata? No, was either of the others ever broken. Bring them back!
  16. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Okay, note to anyone: We need some big creatures in Black/white. Serra's and Sengir's must come back. Why, you ask? Morphling and Two-headed Dragon and Thorn Elemental and Rhox. Answer your question. As was pointed out earlier, the problem with the power 9 reprints is that it's fun to play with them, but not fun to play against them. I don't enjoy getting the sense knocked out of me with what are, in my opinion, abusive cards. Not that I wouldn't kill for a mox...
  17. kingofall New Member

    hear me out:

    as a very casual player(10 games or so in the last six months), i have proxied and played with some power 9. it wasn't all that enjoyable. less of a game than a race, really. and i have always been a fan of the long, thought out games.

    so in that vein, i have a terrible idea for 7ed. all creatures. how cool would that be? yeah, combo kids would be kind of pissed, but i think we all know how much 'fun' it can be playing against a combo deck. i'm not saying they should all be vanilla creatures. far from it. i hate vanilla creatures(except maybe that 7/6 wurm from iceage, what a fattie :)) and wish the majority of them were banished to the four winds. no, just a good, fun, strong set of nothing but creatures. think how begginer-friendly it could be(well, not very, i guess, with all kinds of crazy abilities. but still...). i'd buy it. even if noone else would. :)

    [Edited by kingofall (03-15-2000 at 12:35 PM).]
  18. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Duel: I thought white had Serra's Avatar (the way people were getting it out it was huge), Radiant, Covetous Dragon (or some type of dragon, Alabaster?). I don't know what black has... how powerful is Negator? But each color has powerful creatures... and green's has always been bigger.
  19. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    Kingofall: I like your idea, but some artifacts, enchantments, instants, and sorceries have to be in it. But how about stuff that's powerful, but simple?

    For instance: Wrath of God, Armageddon, Diminishing Returns, Howling Mine, Hammer of Bogardan, etc., plus bring back good creatures. I think the basic set needs to have no vanilla creatures. They're boring to play with, they're boring to see. There's plenty of variety out there. Well, if you're going to include vanilla creatures, bring in the interesting ones that push the limit, but aren't like unGodly overpowered. Would anyone object to opening a Highland Giant or Viashino Weaponsmith instead of Hill Giant? I wouldn't.
  20. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Bring back Nev`s Disk, it is the most important card ever printed and as far as I`m concerned you could change every other card in the basic set but the Disk HAS to be in there.
    I can live without Disenchant, or Wrath, or Angels and Dragons.
    But the Disk is too important.

    Type2 is currently in a major slump and the reason is because Nev`s Disk is unavailable.
    Nev`s Disk was the reason why good players beat bad players, and since it left Type2 strategy has gone straight down the toilet.

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