12 Reasons Why Gay Marriage Should Not Be Legal

[Istanbul]

1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like eyeglasses, polyester, and birth control are not natural.

2. Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Infertile couples and old people cannot get legally married because the world needs more children.

3. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children because straight parents only raise straight children.

4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful, since Britney Spears's 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.

5. Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time, and it hasn't changed at all: women are property, Blacks can't marry Whites, and divorce is illegal.

6. Gay marriage should be decided by the people, not the courts, because the majority-elected legislatures, not the courts, have historically protected the rights of minorities.

7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are always imposed on the entire country. That's why we only have one religion in America.

8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people makes you tall.

9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage license.

10. Children can never succeed without both male and female role models at home. That's why single parents are forbidden to raise children.

11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual marraiage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new social norms because we haven't adapted to cars or longer lifespans.

12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name are better, because a 'separate but equal' instittution is always constitutional. Separate schools for African-Americans worked just as well as separate marriages will for gays and lesbians.

And just in case you didn't get it...

[/sarcasm]

 

[mythosx]

Is this a challenge I see? I thought you were tired of debating this issue. Why stir it up again? I don't mind a debate but I wouldn't want it to degenerate into name calling again. I graduated from highschool and I have no plans on going back.

 

[EricBess]

I doubt I can change too many people's minds in this group, but the fact of the matter, Istanbul, is that there is a fundamental difference between homosexuality and "eyeglasses". I realize that very few are going to agree with me, but homosexuality is actually damaging to the individual emotionally, physically, and spiritually, much the same as alcohol or drugs.

I do not consider myself homophobic and I have quite a few good friends who are homosexual, just as I have several good friends that drink, smoke, etc. I don't judge people, but I do hope for their sakes that they will eventually come to recognize the issues that they struggle with. I have a great respect for those here who have expressed their clear views on both sides of this issue, whether it affected them directly or not.

Please, no one take this the wrong way. I state it as opinion and personal experience and make no claim to have anything "scientific" to back it up. In the past, I have typically avoided these threads because I know I am in the minority in this forum opinion-wise, but I just felt that I should make my stand clear. I will now continue to take the "stay out of it" stance.

 

[Istanbul]

Nah, I just thought it was an amusing bit of sarcasm. And it often draws the ignorant out to express their opinions. Looks like it worked.

 

[Ferret]

That was great. It actually took me until #3 to realize that you were being silly there... very nice.

-Ferret

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Well, I don't know how much use this list would be in changing people's minds, but it's funny enough, in a Michael Moore-ish sort of way. (I like Michael Moore, by the way; Ann Coulter too, just to let you know; makes me feel all schizo.)

And I'm staying out of the "debate" (since there isn't one here) but I did just want to reply to EricBess. The feelings of respect are mutual.

Frankly, however, given my religious background, I have to say that any physical, emotional, and spiritual damage I suffered relating to my sexuality was brought about primarily by the religious and social condemnation of it, not by my sexuality itself. The way I grew up, homosexuality was just wrong, wrong, wrong. My entire family was openly and -- at times -- virulently anti-gay (not to mention anti-just-about-anything-else-not-of-the-white-working-class). It was only after years of confusion and angst that I came to accept my sexuality as it was, and still more years passed before I was able to even open the subject with any members of my family.

There is another fundamental difference. Not only are homosexuality and eyeglasses obviously apples and oranges, but homosexuality can't be compared to drinking or smoking, either. I do both of those things (and more) and while they clearly are bad for me physically, I can stop doing them at will (not that it's so easy for everyone). I can't just stop "being gay" though. Believe me, I never would have chosen it for myself. There's no patch I can stick on so I can be less gay until I get over my gay cravings, no pill I can take that will make me sick if I have gay sex or think naughty gay thoughts.

And no, I'm sorry, I don't believe that there is a religious solution. Years of begging God to fix me had no positive effect. Those years, did serve, however to present me with several crises of faith, which I am only just now resolving (yes, I still do have a relationship with "God" and I know with certainty that "he" doesn't hate me as much as some folks would like me to believe, but that's an altogether different topic).

So, we agree to disagree about the "damage" caused by homosexuality, or the socio-religious forces against it. Your post (as usual) is fair and refreshingly sane, so I thought I'd take the opportunity to reply before this thread degenerates into just another flame thread.

Thanks.

 

[Notepad]

This was funny. CT is right, in a Moore type of cynicism. I could tell it was a joke from line one. I'm too scared to abandon my unnatural eyeglasses.

 

[DÛke]

...

And besides all the "facts" and...humor...insofar mentioned, there are still more delicate and slightly more complex situations. I have communicated my opinion regarding homosexuality as openly as possible in another thread here in the CPA - my previous and still-standing point here concluded: I believe that homosexuality is in fact a sign of degeneration of instincts, one of the subtlest in fact, but is at the end nothing more than only one of the rather many signs and forms of active and progressive decline as far as mankind and mankind's future is concerned. I do realize that homosexuality is not even a fraction of "the problem" but only one of the many wheels that spin man's wagon towards the edge beyond which there is nothing at all - only illusion, hopeless hope, discontent, desires so unsatiable, deception, amongst hundreds of thousands of many other little and big things...

But my case, in the very least, is different and rather strange. I have heard nothing and learnt nothing that has at all influenced me to as little as rethink my stand. I have had so many studies and countless thoughts regarding this world, this animal man which we flaunt as the "rational animal" or the "conscious animal" or, even the more laughable, the "moral animal"; I have had nights when I cried solely to myself, merely gazing at the destiny of this animal, the destiny which I cannot change on my own, and sadly, the destiny that cannot be changed to begin with; I have mourned this animal's grave and death and last hour, and have overcome many so-called "conclusions," only to be confronted by other conclusions. For me to stand and admit my feelings about homosexuality, and yet at the same time have deep emotional, and rather all too involved feelings to a man whom I have met about 5 months ago gives me shivers. I have toyed with the idea, with many ideas - that my so-called "feelings" are nothing more than a phase, or a passing whim, or an untamed eccentricity, or...or...or...

Sleepless nights I have spent over it, thinking and rethinking my particular situations, unable to admit to myself what it is I am feeling and at the same time unable to deny how overwhelming, how real, how pure...the feeling really is. Not once have I been attracted to men, not "that way," and all my attractions were that of intellectual nature, and thus never bothered me or made me rethink my situation.

But this man is different. And with him it has been different now for 5 months...

Just yesterday, July 4th, for six hours I built the guts, overcame fears and worries, and had the strength to confess to my mother what I was feeling. And let me tell you one thing - the way my feelings were met is disagreeable! And this coming from my mother, a learnt, highly educated and intellectual lady. Not only was I met with complete and utter opposition, but with snide comments and suggestions as "you are sick, resist all your feelings." And then an hour later she was laughing, to which I naturally suggested that there was nothing funny, only to here her reply: "Of course it's not funny, but when you're son dies in a blink of an eye, you laugh out of denial..." I am as good as dead?...

And yet, when I question my feelings, even when I share my feelings with the few whom I have trusted, they tell me all the signs point towards one thing - that I am in love. That I am in love!

The feeling is normal. The feeling is...pleasant. And this is coming from a person who was or “thought” himself “normal” for the longest years. The feeling is no different than being with a woman, the attraction is the same, the desire is the same, the intensity is the same...or...actually...in this case, it is a million times more if only because this person is the only one whom I have ever loved, and perhaps will ever love.

And love! This grand and marvelous feeling...for it to be degraded and downplayed into mere “immorality” and “sin,” for it to be met with only opposition and such violent oppression! Disturbing!

Nothing bothers me about my actions and my desires, because I have already chosen my path, despite my mother’s (and soon, father’s) wish and decision, and it has cost me much to admit both to myself and to my family what it is and how it is and for who it is I am feeling...

Does that mean I am ready to change my point views as far as homosexuality is concerned? Not at all. To me, at least, what I am feeling is love by its every pure, divine, and Romantic sense of the word and meaning - I have not once thought of this man as a “man” per se, but that I fell in love with his spirit, only later did the reality of his physical nature hit me, upon which I realized that I am, by all means, “falling for the wrong person.” But the assuredness of my feeling and my desire, the intensity which I feel, assures me of one thing: that it is impossible - impossible - for feelings this pure to be immoral and sinful. This is pure love - to doubt it, to question it, to downplay it into mere "issue of sexuality" despirits it, and as a matter of fact, shows how much people know and understand about the purity, divinity, and spirituality behind love - that it is merely an issue of "sexuality" and not, on the other hand, an issue and desire of the spirit, beyond the physical body and appearance. The very fact that homosexuality is condemened because of its obvious sexual implications and conotations speaks volumes about what people, socieity, and civilization as a whole terms "love." And what they term love, I am afraid, has been a contatgious misudnerstanding and an error which has corrupted and transfromed what love is, into something purely physical and sexual. Does that not explain Hollywood? The endless number of Cinderella stories in which the “beauty” meets the “beautiful”? The mounting number of divorced marriages?...when in reality, love is much simpler, and rather much more beautiful than what our “normal” humans have hitherto made of it...

At the end, I know when I am in love when I know I will never love again, whether this person remains with me or not; I know I am in love when, to me, it does not matter if, having fell in love, he was a man or she was a woman - but that the naked and pure spirit is what I fell for. I know I am in love when, as a matter of fact, sex (both the gender and intercourse) does not even matter! - and that's a first. And yet I am supposed to "resist"?

All this, to me, confronts me with a question - if I strongly believe that homosexuality is one of the wheels to the end, which I do...what am I supposed to do about this feeling of mine?...

 

[mythosx]

I want to clear up my stance for all those who think you know me. As far as a lifestyle goes, I wouldn't recommend it. I don't support it. But at the same time I don't go out and protest against it.

I do have one bit of a thing for you though Chaos turtle. Although most people wouldn't consider it, but what if homosexuality was an addiction. Studies in psychology have shown that any addiction linked with sex is many times stronger and harder to break. I will give you this one bit of information about my personal life. In highschool, I did have homosexual thoughts and perhaps even tendencies. Although, I did not tell anyone, I personally worked through those feelings. I no longer have any such desires, thoughts or what not. I dunno if it was a fluke or maybe it was the same thing as you went through. I am in no way saying you are wrong or anything like that. But personally I am hell bent against the idea that homosexuality is a trait is because of my own expierence. I didn't talk to anyone about it. I can't say I prayed about it. It just happened to straighten itself out.

By the way no one can say you don't have a relationship with God. That's between you and God. Perhaps the next time some one harrasses you, you might want to point out that there are other "sins" they should be worrying about.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

DÛke
All this, to me, confronts me with a question - if I strongly believe that homosexuality is one of the wheels to the end, which I do...what am I supposed to do about this feeling of mine?...

First, thanks for sharing that, and for the reminder that "love" and "sexuality," while intertwined, do not mean the same thing.

My own homosexual "tendencies" are merely another one of my personal contradictions. While I am loathe to use the word "unnatural" (since I think we agree that "nature" is wholly subjective to the individual) I do have a hard time reconciling my personal experience with my perception of homosexuality as counter-productive, biologically speaking. After all, how is one to fulfill the biological imperative to reproduce without a mate of the opposite sex (barring medical intervention, of course)?

Which brings us to your final question. I don't know that there's a way to resolve the conflict between your strongly-held beliefs and you strong feelings of attraction toward another man. I'm not sure that my religious experience would be analagous, but in the end I had to adjust my beliefs. Not that it was easy to do so; a paradigm shift in one's personal belief system is necessarily traumatic, I think. Not that I presume to suggest that a re-ordering of your own beliefs is in order, only you can know what ideas of yours are open to internal debate. In my case, nearly all of them are, but that's just me.

I hesitate to dispense advice to anyone on such matters, so all I can suggest is that you do what "feels natural" to you, if you'll forgive my oversimplification.

Good luck.

mythosx

Although most people wouldn't consider it, but what if homosexuality was an addiction.

Well that's the first time I've heard that particular notion. It's an interesting idea, but -- and forgive me if I seem strident -- I think I'd be getting a lot more "action" if it was an addiction in the conventional sense.

Actually, I think it's perfectly normal for otherwise "straight" people to have apparently homosexual feelings, especially at a time in one's life when hormones are effecting all sorts of changes on the body and mind. I've known a number of people who've confided their homosexual thoughts or experiences to me. One acquaintance of mine told me he'd kissed his best friend on the mouth "on a dare" (yeah, yeah) and that he'd liked it, did that make him gay? To me, the answer was "no, kissing feels good (generally) so it's no big deal that you liked doing something that felt good."

In the same vein, it seems normal to me that people will experience a curiosity about same-gender relationships -- sexual as well as non-sexual -- at some point in their lives. Merely being curious about or even experimenting with such relationships does not indicate your sexual "orientation" any more than listening to country music makes you a redneck. I expect there will be some disagreement with me on that issue, but to me introspection and experimentation seem like very good ways of relating oneself to the world.

By the way no one can say you don't have a relationship with God. That's between you and God. Perhaps the next time some one harrasses you, you might want to point out that there are other "sins" they should be worrying about.

Agreed all the way. That's something I figured out a long time ago. I rarely get harassed, but (unless a debate is invited) I just point out that I don't tell them how to live their lives, thanks very much for not telling me how to live mine.

 

[mythosx]

I like some of your points chaos turtle. I do have to disagree on one point though. You mention that people sometimes have to adjust their beliefs. I am not sure what exactly you mean by this or to what extent. If you have a self imposed code of ethics based on no set religion this would be ok. However, if you have a religion I.e. christianity, It is not ok to be tampering with what the rules are. If you did that, you might as well not believe in it.

About that addiction thing, most people don't think of addictions in the same way I was using it in refernce to lifestyle things. For example, eating meat is an addiction for most people. Eating cooked foods is an addiction for 99% of the population. People do all sorts of weird things that are addictions but they don't realize it because it isn't harmful to their bodies. Personally I am addicted to sushi. It doesn't taste at all that great...but i need to have some once a month.

 

[Istanbul]

I know I have several addictions.

I just can't stop converting oxygen into carbon dioxide.
I keep eating, at least once a day. I also ingest beverages, even more often than that.
On occasion, I even eliminate wastes from my body.

I can't stop!

 

[Shiro, Time Devourer]

Originally posted by mythosx
I want to clear up my stance for all those who think you know me. As far as a lifestyle goes, I wouldn't recommend it. I don't support it. But at the same time I don't go out and protest against it.

I do have one bit of a thing for you though Chaos turtle. Although most people wouldn't consider it, but what if homosexuality was an addiction. Studies in psychology have shown that any addiction linked with sex is many times stronger and harder to break. I will give you this one bit of information about my personal life. In highschool, I did have homosexual thoughts and perhaps even tendencies. Although, I did not tell anyone, I personally worked through those feelings. I no longer have any such desires, thoughts or what not. I dunno if it was a fluke or maybe it was the same thing as you went through. I am in no way saying you are wrong or anything like that. But personally I am hell bent against the idea that homosexuality is a trait is because of my own expierence. I didn't talk to anyone about it. I can't say I prayed about it. It just happened to straighten itself out.

By the way no one can say you don't have a relationship with God. That's between you and God. Perhaps the next time some one harrasses you, you might want to point out that there are other "sins" they should be worrying about.

Homosexuality? an addiction? I find that a little hard to believe, but ATP, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[mythosx]

hey Istanbul I see you left out another addiction, leaving behind smart alec responses before thinking. For someone with that signature you sure don't do it very much.

I don't know what ATP means shiro. As far as it being an addiction, it is a possiblity. Some people were labeling Clinton as a sex addict, so the link to sexuality and addiction exists. I don't come up with this stuff. I just study alot. You guys should do more reading before commenting.

The one thing I don't like about pro homosexual organization Chaos turtle is that they are so far over than you are. For example if some one in my situation they would tell me that I am suppressing my homosexuality. Straight men who have random thoughts like you said would be just denying themselves. They stack the arguments against you all the while its just a straw man. I don't think it is right that they are allowed to go to schools to make presentations about experiementing while other groups are not allowed to make presentations about not. It isn't equal time in the class rooms.

 

[Killer Joe]

"Intolerance"

 

[Istanbul]

Originally posted by mythosx
hey Istanbul I see you left out another addiction, leaving behind smart alec responses before thinking. For someone with that signature you sure don't do it very much.

No, that's not an addiction. It's a natural reaction to idiots, and what can I say? You sure qualify.

 

[Notepad]

Eating cooked food an addiction? Eating sushi an addiction?

Going off topic here, but you guys seriously need to go to an A.A. or N.A. meeting! Now that is addiction, my friends. Don't go throwing the word around.

Eating cooked food could probably be called a habit for our whole species (yes some rare groups eat raw food, but that's a whole side point.) Seriously, go have a chat with a biologist. Our mouths and teeth are far too poor to have been good without the development of cooking (whether it supports evolution or creation is a whole different matter, but once you look at it, our poor little mouths seem perfectly fit to softened cooked foods).

As for "addiction" to foods, man, please think about it. Does it inhabit your thoughts until it becomes primary upon your day's goals?

Like I said earlier, go check out some A.A. meetings, even if you only go for the free coffee. Once you hear some of that stuff, you'd know the truth of addiction.

 

[Reverend Love]

That coffee is free?....those motherfuc...

 

[Shiro, Time Devourer]

Originally posted by mythosx
hey Istanbul I see you left out another addiction, leaving behind smart alec responses before thinking. For someone with that signature you sure don't do it very much.

I don't know what ATP means shiro. As far as it being an addiction, it is a possiblity. Some people were labeling Clinton as a sex addict, so the link to sexuality and addiction exists. I don't come up with this stuff. I just study alot. You guys should do more reading before commenting.

The one thing I don't like about pro homosexual organization Chaos turtle is that they are so far over than you are. For example if some one in my situation they would tell me that I am suppressing my homosexuality. Straight men who have random thoughts like you said would be just denying themselves. They stack the arguments against you all the while its just a straw man. I don't think it is right that they are allowed to go to schools to make presentations about experiementing while other groups are not allowed to make presentations about not. It isn't equal time in the class rooms.

ATP- At this point

 

[Killer Joe]

Being gay is NOT an addiction. Being an A-HOLE is not even an addiction. In fact, modern society/civilization (The past 3,000 years or so) has had it's fair share of all kinds of people being attracted to the same sex. Yup, even religious folks and figures, too.

As far as going against or contradicting religious beliefs for Christians, being 'gay is bad' isn't mentioned in the Ten Commandments, is it? So how is being gay going against the Christian religion?

No one here is actually qualified to judge for God on what is right or wrong. If being gay is so wrong he'd let us know, right? I mean if we are going to believe that God talks to us like the way he spoke to the folks in the Bible then he'd appear to us out of the sky, right? Or was that just the way the story tellers, who wrote the Bible, way of their interpretation of what happened. And if THAT is so, then maybe it was these same story teller's interpretation of God's words, too. Hmm?

11.) Thou shalt not be gay.

C'mon now, we either read the words and go from there or we twist and bend them to fit our current views on society.

If you don't like gays then just say so, don't stand behind religion NONE OF US ARE QUALIFIED TO ANSWER FOR GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, if I'm wrong for being allowed to think this way then I'm wrong, live with it!

Lastly, I am, in fact against one type of people and they come in many colors , sizes and shapes: oinkholes. They are the only ones I can't tolerate.


Oh, and on the topic of this thread, I think gay marriages should be allowed.

Divorces should NOT be allowed, they definitly cause family value problems, degeneration of morales in our society and children get wrecked from them BIG time. Marrying after 30 should definitly be encouraged.