Changes to Mulligan Rule

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
No one was talking about data collection with regard to this change until you made it up on your own.
The fact that you said "made up" furthers my point. Because apparently, the specific words "data collection" in that order means absolutely one thing in your head, while I just happened to use those two words to describe that WOTC gathered information ("collected data") to make their decision/announcement.

And you continue to bluster and not understandw with the rest.

Like I said, I'm done.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
The fact that you said "made up" furthers my point.
The one you made up?

Because apparently, the specific words "data collection" in that order means absolutely one thing in your head,
It seems like you're trying to get some sort of rise out of me by referring to the contents of my head. This is silly.

From your wording, perhaps it's worth noting that data collection is a thing. Stringing the two words together creates a reference to a concept that is distinct from either of them separately. So yeah, having those two specific words, in that order, does matter. This has nothing to do with me or my head.

while I just happened to use those two words to describe that WOTC gathered information ("collected data") to make their decision/announcement.
Huh, it seems like this whole argument could have been avoided if I'd qualified what I'd said about data collection earlier...

me said:
To be clear, the concept of data collection with respect to a popular card game is different from "multiple tests" if that's what you're thinking. Data collection requires observation and recording of real games with real players.
Oh, come on. That line hardly counts...

me said:
To acquire good data out of such a field, a large, unbiased, preferably randomized sample would be necessary.
Well, maybe twice still isn't enough...

me said:
Well, you could call just walking into the Grand Prix and shouting, "Hey guys, would you say that mulligans make for one-sided games too much?" and checking off about how many yeas you think you got compared to nays some sort of data collection. I'd call it the useless sort. I draw a distinction between some sort of data collection and good data collection.
Three times? Oh well, who reads all these posts anyway?

So let's make it four, just for the sake of extra super-duper clarity...

The data that I am claiming has not yet been collected is gameplay detail data on a representative sample of tournament games. This doesn't mean that people don't have any data at all in the universe. I was only talking about that one kind of data, which is why I said as much from the outset, and then said it again three more times. If you want to challenge my emphasis on utility of this kind of data, that's fine (although I'm not sure where you'd go from there now that I've already admitted that even an entirely data-free approach could hypothetically work here). But I think I've been abundantly clear on what kind of data I was talking about.

And you continue to bluster and not understandw with the rest.

Like I said, I'm done.
I didn't even know that someone could bluster through a keyboard!
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
?

Just more falsehoods and incorrect assumptions. Nothing added and nothing's changed, so this is still done.
 

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
"This came from looking at how frequently players mulliganed to five, and their win percentages."
Where did they get this information from?
NOt from match reporting slips at large tournaments (well ones I have been at)
I have GP Detroit this week, sorry Spidey I will be out Thrusday and Friday), I'll ask about this and see if anyone has any insight.
This has gone on for way too long into minutia.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
While he doesn't explicitly state that all of the information they're getting is from in-house testing, he does say...

With that out of the way, I want to talk about a few of the experiments we tried when coming up with potential new mulligan rules.
Considering that most of what he talks about is dealing with alternative versions of the mulligan, I suspect that most of this is gleaned from in-house testing. There aren't sanctioned tournaments in which these alternative mulligans have been tried, other than the Scry version. He says...

While we like this mulligan a lot, we haven't yet (at the time of writing) had time to look at how the Pro Tour played out to see if there were any problems. Part of the idea behind using it at a Pro Tour first is that if there is something we missed, or something that is prone to abuse, it will show up there. We will be looking at both how the Pro Tour played out, as well as the reactions from the players regarding the rule. I don't know when we will have a decision based on this, but we hope to have new information fairly soon.
I haven't had any time to look at PT Magic Origins, so I have no idea what WotC investigated there. Presumably they hoped to learn something, although I don't know if it involved data collection or took some other approach.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
""This came from looking at how frequently players mulliganed to five, and their win percentages."

yes, this and other statement referring to players seemed vague. While I agree with Oversoul that their testing seemed to be in-house, the use of "players" sprinkled through provides a little doubt and wonderment.

Oversoul, I'm not sure what you mean by your Pro Tour Origins statement. I don't know exactly what or how they collected information, but since they instituted the scry mulligan rule there, that's what they're investigating.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Oversoul, I'm not sure what you mean by your Pro Tour Origins statement. I don't know exactly what or how they collected information, but since they instituted the scry mulligan rule there, that's what they're investigating.
I'm bemused that you can purportedly not understand what I've said, then go on to use different words to express the same thing that I'd said.
 

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
I was told, unofficially, that tapes of pro tour and other events were used as "data". It's definitely not a random sample, but a sample of the games they "care" about. Also, they have a testing group that kept data on games.
Not sure you two care much anymore, but that's all I got.

I have failed in my mission, I am not a warrior......
 
Top