Yet another thread, but an interesting article

[Apollo]

I have to attribute this article to somebody on Mtgnews.com. It's from a Canadian newspaper, and I think it applies very well to those that have been saying that the U.S. brought this on themselves, and don't see anythign beyond our own borders. It should also be noted that Canadian and other media outlets provided only incomplete coverage of the article. Here's the exact text, by Gordon Sinclair:

Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in
1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is
gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?

If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get
automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most
of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco
earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada
is not one of those."

Apollo

 

[DÛke]

...if the U.S. is the richest and most powerful nation in the world (and it is), how the hell are the weaklings suppose to help? I mean, let's take the 9-11 disaster for example: all the world leaders and representatives of countries the U.S. spoke to offered words that expressed sorrow, and some are in fact trying to help. How could a nation so big be helped by a nation so small, and not as rich? Heh, it's like asking me to lend Bill Gates few bucks...

 

[Lotus Mox]

DÛKe is in fact correct about a small country helping the most powerful, and just because the USA did good things, are we now obliged to overlook all the bullshit they're doing and have done? (not that other nations are any better, I don't dislike America, I dislike all the crap humans do.)

And remember, most of this anti-american attidute (which aren't the feelings of the majority, and which also isn't mine, even though you all think I'm a Nazi and whatnot ) goes against the American government, not the American people, so don't feel too insulted about these things.

 

[Ura]

Its a very good point the article raises though that throughout time no one has wanted the US around except when they're in trouble and need help.

Its true that the smaller countries can offer very little in disaster relief to the US, Canada was one of the few who did during the massive L.A. earthquakes years back. Otherwise Duke's analogy of lending Bill Gates a few bucks is correct.

The problem is that people only choose to see the bad things the US has done or is doing unless they need help from the US. Its a proven part of humanity to try and pick on the big dog and critisize it like they're supposed to be perfect. Well they're not, they never will be, but they're certainly alot better then alot of other countries on earth.

Its really easy to critisize something that you don't need something from and you know can't do anything to you for without looking like a big bully.

 

[Apollo]

DUke and Lotus Mox are way off base. The point isn't that other countries should be helping the U.S. In that respect, DUke's analogy is correct; it's hard to expect them to help that extensively. But other countries could be helping other countries. When something goes wrong ina smaller country, we are always the ones that rush to their aid. No other countries do.

The point is that the U.S. has done a ton of good things. They do try to help. They aren't just concerned with their own selves. Sure, they don't always get it right, but they try. And the mindless U.S. bashing is just as bad as the mindless U.S. support you accuse us of.

We've been accused of being brainwashed. Well, when our government officials screw up, it's all over the news, plastered in our newspapers, and repeated over and over. If they're trying to brainwash us into thinking our government is perfect, they're doing a really horrible job. I might contend that foreign media brainwashes others at least as much as we are brainwashed; some guy from outside the U.S. at mtgnews was talking about how the U.S. kids only study American history in schools and how info about the rest of the world is kept from them. Well, they must do a pretty darn good job of brainwashing us, cause I could've sworn I was in a World History class 2 years ago. A class that actually ripped on the U.S. a lot.

 

[Lotus Mox]

Apollo, what you say is certainly not true, Germany which isn't exactly poor, helps other countries, noone here says: just let the Americans do it.

The article you brought up, in fact only says that "lesser" nations don't help the US, not that they don't help each other.

Oh And I don't really want to bash the US, just want to put things in realistic perspectives, but apparently this equals US bashing for you *sigh*.

 

[Apollo]

I was referring to the article, Lotus Mox. It says:

"When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up"

"When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help."

As what I was saying was based on a prominent Canadian broadcaster, I was rather assuming that it was true.

What the article says is that the U.S. does more to help other countries than anybody else. We are not simply greedy and concerned with ourselves, as some have said. We do not only try to help when we stand to gain, as (again) others have said. If we did, why would we pour all that money in, forgiving the debt and even the interest? And yet, we are only criticized.

Frankly, I have seen U.S. bashing on here. I didn't necessarily say from you. But there have been comments saying that the U.S. can't see beyond its own borders, that we only get involved to help ourselves, that we are brainwashed, greedy people. Is that not bashing? *sigh*

I was trying to add a sense of perspective for those that see the U.S. in the ugly, greedy, menacing light. I think that is certainly not a realistic perception. Expecting us to be perfect is not a realistic perception either. We help much more than we hurt; some could stand to appreciate that.

It should be noted, for the benefit of those that cannot realize it on their own (Lotus Mox), that nobody in particular is being singled out. When I said you were way off-base, you were off-base in my reasoning for posting the article. I am not attacking you. These comments do not necessarily apply to you specifically. Capeesh?

 

[terzarima]

Me and many Canadians I know are trying as hard as we can to help in whatevery way we can. Everywhere you go its all about America. I agree with the article whole heartedly.

I also agree with DÜke when he was talking about other countries who face such devastation. I beleive we should pursue helping them with as much vigor as we are with this incident.

 

[Duster]

I would just like to point out that the talks our President is having with other world leaders is not so much asking for help in terms of money, but in political backing against whomever did this. Basically, we're trying to get more people on our side.

 

[Spiderman]

It depends how you view things. Actually, I believe a lot of countries help in ways that they can; Switzerland sends out dog search teams for earthquake victim countries (Turkey? India?) because of their experience in the Alps with that sort of thing; they may have helped in the embassy bombings in Africa. That's just one example.

In the '80s, it was generally acknowledged (I believe) that the Japanese economy was doing at least as well, if not better, that the United States at the time. And because their constitution prohibits having/sending their armed forces abroad in conflicts, I think they might choose to help monetarily.

But in general, the article kinda reinforces the questions I've asked earlier: everyone likes to talk about the US "meddling" in other government affairs (mostly third-world BTW), yet no one talks about humanitarian aid given, such as food to Russia and North Korea (the former even when it was an antagonist and the latter still) or financial support. And no one even talks about the policies of the home government and why they are despised in the first place (and they must be, if they have insurgency problems and the US is backing the government). Some might be justified, such as support for Noriega in Panama. But do we really know?

 

[DÛke]

...

United States' Aid

--minus--

United States' Damage

--equals--

Nothing.

Nobody here tries only to point out the bad things the U.S. has done. Everyone here, I believe, knows the true aid the U.S. has given. However, I don't see lending money for weapons, and lending weapons as being a form of aid.

The good things are hard to see when you have bad things along them. Everyone should know this:

...it takes time to make friends. It takes time to keep them. It takes time to build a good reputation....BUT...it takes a single moment to ruin everything, and the United States has well-worth share of its "single moments." I know this sounds anti-American for your ears, but actually, if you just bother to read it carefully, you'd see that I'm simply saying the truth, despite of it being good or bad. Nothing personal with the U.S., it's just me that likes to speak the actual truth, no matter how bad it sounds. Sorry if it wasn't spiced with lies for your personal pleasure...go watch the CNN for that.

 

[Spiderman]

Nobody here tries only to point out the bad things the U.S. has done. Everyone here, I believe, knows the true aid the U.S. has given. However, I don't see lending money for weapons, and lending weapons as being a form of aid.

Actually, I believe they have. Please point me to a post where a good thing was said with a bad thing.

I repeat: is the US's responsibility to attach caveats and conditions on how aid money is spent or how weapons are used? How come no one is bashing on those countries who are actually "misusing" this aid and weapons or speaking about their policies?

 

[DÛke]

...no, the U.S. is not responsible, Spiderman. However, when it doesn't help, and then when there's a "war" between 2 countries, and it "suddenly" lends "aid" to one of the countries, then it's dead clear what it wants to be done with these weapons and the money. Otherwise, I question: why wasn't the aid given before the war? No, it was given even during the war...

I don't know if anyone here thinks the U.S. is some big devil or something, but I certainly don't. Sorry that nobody may have pointed out the good things, but I can: the U.S. is great, in which it has, in fact, saved many, many lives by giving actual aid of food, medical supplies, and even money for reconstructions. Yes, when it comes these, the U.S. has my vote for being most helpful. I believe although this wasn't pointed out by me, Gizmo, or Lotus Mox before...I'm sure they understand it as perfectly as I do. We're pointing out the "bad" things simply because everyone has pointed out the bad things about others too. The finger was instantly pointed at Arabians and Muslims when the incident happened...that's when nobody had a freakin' clue! Now...guess what...2 Islamic schools in St. Louis were shut down because of threats, and Islamic stores are shut down (one even burned!) by enraged public. I don't think that's fair...and no matter who did what...it shouldn't turn out the way it's been unfolding. You point your fingers at people, and then you expect a reward? Not from me...

 

[Spiderman]

Can you clarify what two countries and what "sudden" war you're talking about?

 

[DÛke]

...man...man...man...

I wasn't referring to certain countries. I was being metaphorical. That's how the U.S. acts, and that is what you also refer to as "aid and support," which it isn't. It helps in way that is indirectly negative. Yes, like I said...it has lend many positive aid before, but...the way it is, negative always overrides positive.

Spiderman, try not to look too deeply into my words, instead, try to understand what my general points are...

 

[Spiderman]

I misunderstood you, but the problem I have is that to my knowledge, the US is not in the habit of "suddenly" providing aid. It usually has a policy of doing so for quite a while.

 

[DÛke]

...oh yeah? When I was in Iraq, I remember this perfectly...I woke one day, and everyone on TV was so angry that the U.S. has funded Kuwait so much money. That "funding", mind you, happened after Iraq decided to get its a$$ in trouble. Iraq isn't the angel of all that particualar incident, but believe me, niether is the U.S.

...Kewait is.

The U.S. also has a habit of funding it's allies, especially when the get into war. It may seem natural and with good intentions, but the effects were not, and they certainly are not. At points, it even funds its allies when the allies are the ones who're being unjust, like the case with Israel. The U.S. funds them so much, even though they don't need it, nor deserve it. This "funding" creates so many tension between the nations...how would you feel when you're hurting, and I have so much funding, but I don't give it to you, instead, I give it my friend who needs much less than you do? See, it's not fair...

 

[Mikeymike]

DUke touched on an important point that I think needs to have some focus:

The finger was instantly pointed at Arabians and Muslims when the incident happened...that's when nobody had a freakin' clue! Now...guess what...2 Islamic schools in St. Louis were shut down because of threats, and Islamic stores are shut down (one even burned!) by enraged public. I don't think that's fair...

This scares the hell out of me. The American culture has come a long way in the last half a century to become an equal opportunity nation (Its still far from perfect, but its getting there). We are in grave danger of stepping backwards as a country as Arabs and Muslims are going to be the targets of hate crimes. Just like any other race, 99.9% of these citizens are regular people trying to lead normal lives and we can't allow their civil rights to be violated.

But the sad thing is that this is going to continue to happen. America was violated and its people are very angry, and when there is anger there is misdirection of anger. Its human nature unfortunately, and I don't know how you can combat something like this.

There is a guy who works at the local variety store I go to, I beleive he is Saudi Arabian if I'm not mistaken. He's a funny cat who always says hi and small talks with the customers. I went in there on tuesday morning and went to pay for my stuff. He didn't say a word, couldn't look me in the eye. But his shaking hands were enough to tell me what was going through his mind. Poor guy, I felt so much empathy for him.

 

[Spiderman]

DUke: So you are referring to a specific case here...

Anyway, I don't have numbers, do you? Can you point to specific US aid levels to Kuwait before the Gulf War?

And quite honestly, now that we have this case in mind, what exactly are you railing against? The fact that the US gave aid to Kuwait during this "war" (more like a surprise invasion with little possibility of response)? And can you explain again why this is bad?

Mikeymike: It's sad but true that misguided people feel the need to take out their frustration on the "handiest" local Arab. It's up to us others to keep that in check and stop such occurrances.

 

[DÛke]

...correction, Spiderman: NOW, I'm referring to a specific case. I don't know any numbers, and no one here knows any numbers, but I remember the public shock. It was a big shock, much like it's a big shock about what happened here a couple of days ago. Nobody saw it coming. The U.S. seemed to fund Kewait out of nowhere. I bet not even the Kewait people themselves saw it coming. Why is it bad? Because the U.S. does not have the right to fund Kewait so Kewait can kill innocent people in Iraq. The U.S. indirectly have destroyed thousands of innocent lives in Iraq...and the case everyone seems to b***h about here is that innocent people have nothing to do with it. Well, damn right they don't...too bad you found that out just on the day of 9-11. Nobody saw that as a tragedy, because nobody cared...or at least, because the "news" told you it's the right thing to do...heh...pity.

Like I said, Spiderman, you keep on turning back around and (re)analyzing my words. No such thing is needed. I've lived there, I remember all my shocking moments...so there.