What do people think of Lorwyn?

[Rakarth]

I just wanted to get people's opinions on Lorwyn, and Morningtide as it comes out.

I played with a few friends last night in a large multiplayer game (a free for all in fact, and my real first game with people I haven't played before but that's another story) and a pre-constructed elf deck from Lorwyn wiped the floor with everyone else, except for a white and black deck that managed to make Soldier counters at a great rate.

The only reason this deck didn't win is that the player was relatively new to Magic and his choice of targets was not always the best, and that everyone targeted him when they realised that he had elves, reducing his counters force down to a level where the W/B deck could only contain his trampling 43/43 forest/treefolk cretures long enough for him to deck himself.

While it was a very casual game and no-one really cared that we knew that the elves would swamp us, as well as putting the player on over 300 life at the end of the game, it did bring up several questions as to how to play against tribal decks like these. The tribal vs tribal argument was raised, slivers, more elves, goblins or rebels, plus the inevitable focused burn deck.

What I want to know is what everyone here thinks to Lorwy and the decks it creates, as far as I know it's a tribal based block. Which I suppose when played against one another would be ok, however for casual games not everyone plays Lorwyn do they?

Rakarth

 

[Modus Pwnens]

Hmm, I'm not sure I entirely understand your question, but I'll just write some stuff that comes to mind when reading your story.

First of all, yes, Lorwyn is a tribal block (quoting Mark Rosewater: "Lorwyn is to Onslaught what Ravnica was to Invasion"). Tribal decks, in this case Lorwyn block constructed, usually rely on heavy synergy. Especially in large free for all games, these decks are given plenty of time to build up their destructive force.
Elves (well, green, but it's tribal) are known for their token-creation, which really adds up when given the proper time.

If you worry that those type of decks are too strong for casual multiplayer, I disagree.
The more players are in a multiplayer game, the less you want to rely on a lot of tokens, as you will encounter the inevitable white (Wrath of God), red (AEther flash) or black (engineered plague) player.
Sure it's casual, and making a lot of tokens can be great fun, but there are plenty of boardcleaning mechanics that make multiplayer so much fun. In my semi-casual group there is always at least one player who packs your choice of cataclysm, balance, damnation, pox, obliterate etc.

All decks should have some sort of game-plan, casual decks simply have weirder, funnier or lesser known strategies. Especially if you play casual and someone brings a lot of tokens to the table, adapt your deck to handle it!
A competetive deck is usually very strong 1 on 1 (or it wouldn't be competetive), but many get completely wrecked in multiplayer and vice versa.
For example, I've recently played against someone who played powered oath (I was really scared when he opened with Library of Alexandria, Mox Sapphire into Anchestral Recall, drawing a card of the Library (notice the capital) for Mox Pearl). Obviously I lost, but when he played the same deck in multiplayer, it got slaughtered.
On the other side, I'm not allowed to play with my pox deck (I'll post a decklist sometime if you like) in multiplayer, simply because it can win against 4 or 5 decks, all working together to kill me.

Don't worry about Lorwyn being too strong against non-tribal decks. Tribal usually takes a bunch of turns to set up, and is heavily creature reliant. It has quite a lot of weaknesses, which can (and should be) exploited by non-tribal decks.
Every deck has a better and a worse matchup (that's the beauty of magic). You don't start playing with the expectation to win all games (given a few exceptions).
Overall, I dislike block constructed vs non-block constructed, as decks consisting of only cards out one block (and in case of Lorwyn only one set) are most of the time quite weak (unless they're left alone).

And if you really can't beat their decks, beat 'm up when they walk home

 

[Spiderman]

I haven't had a chance to play Lorwyn except in Mindmaster, but I agree with Modus's general principles/ideas. Your deck should be able to handle anything and if it doesn't, in a MP game, hope that someone else recognizes the threat and can take them out (and/or form alliances).

 

[Modus Pwnens]

Hmm, I'm not sure if a deck should be able to handle absolutely anything thrown at it. The main thing is that you have a game plan, that isn't too easy to disrupt.

The classic example (1v1) is beatdown versus control. The beatdown player tries to get as many threats as possibly swinging at it's opponent, while the control player attemps to stop him untill he can start executing his own plan.

Let's take a look at the basic three deck-archetypes.
Combo. Combo doesn't really care what you do, and will simply try to stay alive as long as possible until it can (or has to) go off.
Combo in multiplayer can be difficult - if people know you're most likely to kill everyone the next turn, it's unlikely you'll live that long, but casual decks usually have some fun combo that people don't see coming (unless you play the same deck every time of course, in which case it's time for a new deck).

Control. Control will be the target of anyone, as it usually doesn't play many creatures (and if they do, they're usually in the deck for another reason than their combat potential). It's very easy to get in a few points of damage against the control player, and if multiple people feel that way, you're dead pretty fast.
Counterspells have very little effect, other than drawing unwanted attention to yourself (believe me, I've tried), so unless you're lucky enough to hold out into the late game, you're in for a rough ride.

Beatdown. Aggressive decks are fun, but difficult again. It's great if you got a large beatstick (say hello tarmogoyf) to run around smacking people's faces in, but the point there is that you're gonna get removal killing your largest threats, and you'll often run out of cards. The problem is of course that there are too many targets for your creatures.

My point here is that most decks can't win a multiplayer game by theirselves.
I believe that diplomacy is the key to winning (don't forget that while it's fun to backstab your ally after he just killed the opposition for you, but he's not going to help you in the next game). Like spidey said, it's important to recognise threats to your deck when you see them, and then convince other players that they're in danger as well.
In multiplayer, conserve your resources as much as possible, use them wisely. It can be worth it to take out a large creature that's attacking someone that isn't a danger to you, as that player will be more likely to help you later.
Lets have some random example (examples are fun).
I'm playing some random BR control burn deck. I'm making it up as we go, but lets say i have some burn, some (mass-)removal and a few big dragons / tombstalker as finishers.
If a control player drops a humility, it's worth it to save the GW player's life, as he'll probly have a disenchant to get rid of the humility (especially if you remind him that your huge shivan dragon is anxious to fly over for an impressive amount of damage.

Take advantage of your opponents by letting them do stuff for you. If you're in control of the players, you're in control of the game as well!

 

[rokapoke]

Modus, this sounds like a multiplayer article -- just the kind of thing our front page has been lacking for months! Start writing!

 

[Modus Pwnens]

Hmm, if you are interested I don't mind giving some thoughts about multiplayer games.

 

[Spiderman]

Sorry, when I meant "everything", I meant depending on your style of deck, but creatures are pretty much standard when it comes to being something to be "dealt with".

I play a lot of control decks, so they usually can handle most everything: creatures, artifacts, enchantments, sometimes graveyard...

 

[Modus Pwnens]

Decks that are very versatile might have answers against a lot of different decks, but can you hold out against a very focussed deck (goblins for example)?

The balance you need to find is having answers against most things that kill you and at the same time being able to handle very specific threats. Counters are very useful normally, as they are "strong" against anything else, but in multiplayer you're not going to counter everything. Problem is, with spells you know what the target is, but creatures can go either way.

 

[Spiderman]

Usually I play MP, so someone else helps out (sometimes). If not, I'm out early and adjust for the next game

 

[Rakarth]

Sorry my question was so unfocused, I was just asking as to what people thought about Lorwyn, any thoughts on it, whatever they could think of in fact

I've heard many arguments for and against tribes and again I heard, last night, the argument against being told how to play your cards and what to play them with. The forced clump rant was refreshed in my memory when I heard this, mainly as being told what to do is something I cannot take

I talked about the multiplayer as it was the only example I could really give with a Lorwyn deck. None of the decks that anyone brought could really deal with the Elf deck in this case, although I suppose that's just unlucky this time, no-one expected it to be honest. However we did spend most of the first few turns watching this token production line, all of us focusing what few threats we had on the Elves in an effort to at least stall him.

I don't believe that tribal decks are too strong for multiplayer, even casual. Although we discussed 1 vs 1 and pretty much all of us were edging towards the side of them being very strong here and difficult to stop once they got going. This is I suppose the key to a good tribal deck but they seemed to make people uncomfortable. Playing a tribal vs tribal could be all manner of fun but watching someone accelerate to over 300 life in this game wasn't fun.

I hate to seem like I'm complaining and I hope it won't be taken like that. This was the first multiplayer game I played and it was hilarious, unwieldy and just good fun. No one moaned, we all got on with the game, but there was some good-natured discussion, about Lorwyn in particular.

Also I second rokapoke on the article about multiplayer

Rakarth