WGB Token Commander

Discussion in 'Casual Decks/Variants/Etc' started by Terentius, Jan 11, 2015.

  1. Terentius The Instigator

    This needs its own thread methinks. This is my first Commander deck from scratch besides the Sliver deck I made, and that was much easier. Of the cards I own now, a lot of them are passable but not good. I'm still inexperienced in this format, so I need help on making cuts but still keeping the token and planeswalker coalition themes.

    For the initial phase until I cut down to 100, I'll group the cards by what their main role is, with further subcategories to assess how they curve with the deck. Cards in italics are cards I don't yet own. Strike-through indicates a cut, but I leave it in the list for reference. I'm leaving land specifications out for the most part; those can be addressed later.

    I guess the main goal of the deck right now is to up the size of my tokens as quickly as possible, and let token generation and populate effects build an army. Not sure if tokens will be able to protect the 9 planeswalkers to build up to ultimate. Convoke things should help with speed. I don't think I have an alternate win condition other than damage; maybe add something that sacs creatures for life loss?

    I will also be updating here, so you can more easily see card images and card count: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/07-01-15-FTt-wbg-token/. I plan on running about 35 lands, so the list below needs to be cut to 65.

    UPDATE: Current lists for 2 distinct decks

    WGB Token Commander

    Ghave, Guru of Spores

    -Token Generators-
    Small tokens (1/1 or 2/2)
    Mausoleum Guard
    Triplicate Spirits
    Lingering Souls
    Spectral Procession
    Midnight Haunting
    Fists of Ironwood
    Avenger of Zendikar
    Syphon Flesh
    Army of the Damned
    Seed Spark
    Aura Mutation
    Hornet Queen
    Symbiotic Worm
    Cobra Trap
    Promise of Bunrei
    Rousing of Souls
    Nomads' Assembly
    Geist-Honored Monk
    Hornet Nest
    Mana tokens
    Growth Spasm
    Big tokens (3/3 or 4/4)
    Trostani's Summoner
    Call of the Conclave
    Horncaller's Chant
    Devout Invocation
    Courser's Accord
    Centaur's Herald
    Huge tokens (5/5 and up)
    Voice of Resurgence?
    Armada Wurm
    Grove of the Guardian
    Phyrexian Rebirth
    Advent of the Wurm
    Small tokens
    Twilight Drover
    Night Soil
    Druidic Satchel
    Utopia Mycon
    Curse of Shallow Graves
    Grave Titan
    Selesnya Evangel
    Verdant Embrace
    Master of the Wild Hunt
    Precinct Captain
    Brimaz, King of Oreskos
    Squirrel Nest
    Elspeth, Knight-Errant
    Elspeth, Sun's Champion
    Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
    Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
    Mana tokens
    Awakening Zone
    Pawn of Ulamog
    Big tokens
    Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
    Kazandu Tuskcaller
    Rampaging Baloths
    Luminarch Ascension
    Garruk, Apex Predator
    Garruk, Primal Hunter
    Huge tokens
    Spawning Grounds
    Giant Adephage

    -Things that populate or multiply token numbers (not generate)-
    Druid's Deliverance
    Rootborn Defenses
    Trostani's Judgement
    Sundering Growth
    Wayfaring Temple
    Parallel Lives
    Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
    Growing Ranks
    Primal Vigor
    Rhys the Redeemed
    Doubling Season

    -Token/all creature enhancers-
    Overwhelming Stampede
    Triumph of the Hordes
    Dolmen Gate
    Akroma's Memorial
    Intangible Virtue
    Brave the Sands
    True Conviction
    Cathars' Crusade
    Hardened Scales
    Maw of the Obzedat
    Pheres-Band Warchief
    Phantom General
    Emmara Tandris
    Eldrazi Monument
    Sigil Captain
    Beastmaster Ascension
    Mirari's Wake
    Juniper Order Ranger
    Archangel of Thune
    Angelic Skirmisher
    Ajani Steadfast
    Ajani Goldmane

    -Things with convoke-
    Devouring Light
    Siege Wurm
    Hour of Reckoning
    Chord of Calling
    Nissa's Expedition
    Scatter the Seeds
    Seraph of the Masses
    Sprout Swarm
    Sundering Vitae

    -Other creature beaters (only do damage)-
    Unruly Mob
    Crusader of Odric
    Bronzebeak Moa
    Nantuko Husk
    Protean Hydra
    Copperhoof Vorrac
    Centaur Healer

    -Other utility-
    Ancient Craving
    Journey to Nowhere
    Aura Shards
    Indrik Umbra
    Unflinching Courage
    Eternal Thirst
    Diabolic Tutor
    Verdant Haven
    Altar's Reap
    Sylvan Scrying
    Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
    Austere Command
    Ray of Revelation
    Loxodon Hierarch
    The Chain Veil
    Whip of Erebos
    Tablet of the Guilds
    Champion of Stray Souls
    Vraska the Unseen

    -Old cards I should use-
    Gaea's Cradle
    Recurring Nightmare
    Phyrexian Altar
    Ashnod's Altar
    Citanul Hierophants
  2. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Juniper Order Ranger: If you use Ashnod's Altar, this would be an excellent inclusion. Both cards are good with token-generators on their own, and together with Ghave, they go infinite. Sigil Captain also has that potential, although I'd prefer the Ranger.

    Blood Artist/Falkenreath Noble: You'd probably get targeted by other players for this, but it could hit hard.

    Wurmcoil Engine: It does make tokens.

    Skullclamp: It's in the Counterpunch deck, because even WotC recognizes how powerful the synergy is.

    Ivy Lane Denizen: Another Ghave synergy.

    Geralf's Messenger: Take a counter from it, sacrifice it, take a counter from it, sacrifice it, take a counter from it...

    Mikaeus, the Unhallowed: Since Ghave is best friends with Undying creatures, why not make all your creatures Undying?

    Kitchen Finks: Or any useful Persist creature. Sacrifice tokens through Ghave to get rid of those pesky -1/-1 counters.
  3. Mooseman Isengar Tussle

    Like Murderous Redcap?
  4. Terentius The Instigator

    Yeah, those are all great! Especially Blood Artist for 2 CMC.

    But I feel like my deck ended up in a different place then when I started. If I'm going for more infinite combos, then I do I need hardly any single-instance cards at all, like Overwhelming Stampede or Triplicate Spirits? Should I leave only the best ones in? I could make room to put all the above in, Juniper and Sigil Cap back in, and Grave Pact, and a bunch of other stuff! Ooh, maybe I could split this into two Commander decks! One more combo-oriented, the other being more of a creature-beater.

    Whether I split the deck or not, what about the planeswalkers? Will they as a group work in a more combo-oriented deck, or do specific ones not work?

    Also, could you explain Kitchen Finks and Ghave? Does putting a +1/+1 counter on a Persist creature cancel out with the -1/-1 counter from Persist?
  5. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Yeah, it would work well, but not in Commander, on account of the "color identity" rules.

    There are a lot of different directions to go, but Ghave seems such a natural fit for a combo-oriented approach. It wouldn't necessarily have to be infinite, of course.

    Well, I think that Garruk Relentless is superb in a Ghave deck. Some of the others have synergy too, although going all-in on the planeswalker theme probably weakens the deck a bit.

    Yes, way back during the Time Spiral rules update, they made it so that +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out.
  6. Terentius The Instigator

    Split. Cut both to 100. Cards in both decks are colored green.

    WGB Token Combo - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wbg-token-combo/
    Commander - Ghave, Guru of Spores
    1x Ashnod's Altar
    1x Attrition
    1x aura mutation
    1x Aura Shards
    1x blasting station
    1x Blood Artist
    1x carnage altar
    1x cathar's crusade
    1x champion of lambholt
    1x Champion of Stray Souls
    1x Chord of Calling
    1x Citanul Hierophants
    1x diabolic tutor
    1x Doomed traveler
    1x Doubling Season
    1x dread drone
    1x Earthcraft
    1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
    1x exsanguinate
    12x Forest
    1x Gaea's Cradle
    1x Garruk Relentless
    1x Garruk, Apex Predator
    1x geist-honored monk
    1x geralf's messenger
    1x grave pact
    1x Grave Titan
    1x Grove of the Guardian
    1x harsh sustenance
    1x Hour of Reckoning
    1x Juniper Order Ranger
    1x kitchen finks
    1x kozilek's predator
    1x Lingering Souls
    1x Luminarch Ascension
    1x martyr's bond
    1x melira, sylvok outcast
    1x Midnight Haunting
    1x mikaeus, the unhallowed
    1x Necrogenesis
    1x Nim deathmantle
    1x Nissa's Expedition
    1x Parallel Lives
    1x pawn of ulamog
    1x Phyrexian Altar
    13x Plains
    1x Primal Vigor
    1x puppeteer clique
    1x Scatter the Seeds
    1x Seed Spark
    1x Seraph of the Masses
    1x Sigil Captain
    1x skullclamp
    1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
    1x Spawning Grounds
    1x Spectral Procession
    1x Squirrel Nest
    1x sun titan
    1x Sundering Growth
    1x Sundering Vitae
    8x Swamp
    1x Teneb, the Harvester
    1x triskelion
    1x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
    1x Twilight Drover
    1x unruly mob
    1x Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
    1x Vraska the Unseen
    1x woodfall primus

    I put a lot of combos I knew of/read about into this deck. Have no idea how it will fare pacing-wise, but there are certainly a lot of ways to end the game in one turn. I cut some of the planeswalkers from this one.

    WGB Token Beats - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wbg-token-beats/
    Commander - Ghave, Guru of Spores
    1x Advent of the Wurm
    1x Ajani Goldmane
    1x Ajani Steadfast
    1x Akroma's Memorial
    1x Alive / Well
    1x archangel of thune
    1x armada wurm
    1x aura mutation
    1x Aura Shards
    1x Awakening Zone
    1x Beastmaster Ascension
    1x brave the sands
    1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
    1x Call of the Conclave
    1x cathar's crusade
    1x champion of lambholt
    1x Champion of Stray Souls
    1x Chord of Calling
    1x Corpsehatch
    1x Devout Invocation
    1x Doubling Season
    1x eldrazi monument
    1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
    1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
    1x Fists of Ironwood
    12x Forest
    1x Gaea's Cradle
    1x Garruk Relentless
    1x Garruk, Apex Predator
    1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
    1x Giant Adephage
    1x Gild
    1x Grove of the Guardian
    1x Growing Ranks
    1x Growth Spasm
    1x hardened scales
    1x Hour of Reckoning
    1x Intangible Virtue
    1x Kazandu Tuskcaller
    1x Lingering Souls
    1x Luminarch Ascension
    1x Midnight Haunting
    1x Mirari's Wake
    1x Necrogenesis
    1x Nissa's Expedition
    1x Overwhelming Stampede
    1x Parallel Lives
    13x Plains
    1x Primal Vigor
    1x Quest for the Gravelord
    1x Rampaging Baloths
    1x Rhys the Redeemed
    1x Scatter the Seeds
    1x Seed Spark
    1x selesnya charm
    1x Seraph of the Masses
    1x Siege Wurm
    1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
    1x Sundering Growth
    1x Sundering Vitae
    8x Swamp
    1x The Chain Veil
    1x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
    1x true conviction
    1x utopia mycon
    1x Verdant Haven
    1x Vraska the Unseen
    1x Wayfaring Temple
    1x Whip of Erebos

    This is probably closer to the deck I was originally going for, but... it doesn't seem to make much use of black. Is Selesnya more suited to this type of deck?

    Any cards cards that got cut you think I should reconsider?
  7. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Perhaps if you want to also do a creature swarm deck, the commander should be Rhys, the Redeemed?
  8. Terentius The Instigator

    Yeah, I figured as much. If I cut black from Token Beats, it might look something like:
    -1 Ghave
    -1 Champion of Stray Souls
    -1 Corpsehatch
    -1 Garruk, Apex Predator
    -1 Gild
    -1 Necrogenesis
    -1 Lingering Souls
    -1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
    -1 Vraska the Unseen
    -1 Whip of Erebos
    -1 Quest for the Gravelord
    +1 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
    +1 Garruk Wildspeaker
    +1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
    +1 Dolmen Gate
    +1 Thragtusk
    +1 Triplicate Spirits
    +1 Citanul Hierophants
    +1 Copperhoof Vorrac
    +1 Bronzebreak Moa
    +1 Rootborn Defenses
    +1 Druid's Deliverance

    I'm in no rush to build this deck, as I don't even have anyone to play Commander with. Trying to build a deck only to have the design fail is exhausting to me, so I'll put a pin in this for now and come back later.
  9. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Play online with us! :)
  10. Terentius The Instigator

    I might want to play a forum game at some point, but not 4+ player Commander.
  11. Mooseman Isengar Tussle

    Play against a pre-con, a deck you want to test against or just someone else's deck.
  12. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Yeah, that's just the first MP Commander game in a long time. Mooseman and I have been dueling just with each other with first the 2012 and now the 2013 Commander decks. I'll play you with any of the precons.
  13. Terentius The Instigator

    Met up with a new playgroup that's interested in Commander, so I got these decks built, as well as adding in sweet cards that have come out since I made the list, like Cryptolith Rite and Anointed Procession. Updated deck lists here (will update specific land enumerations later):

    Token beats: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wbg-token-beats/
    EDIT: Necrogenesis and Lingering Souls were removed, will update with the missing cards
    Had to cut a lot of fun cards in order to shove in 12 Planeswalkers and go both wide and long with tokens. Ended up keeping black, and switching over to a couple of new Commanders with Partner. I got to test a version prior to that in a few games, and it had solid performances.

    Token combo: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wbg-token-combo/
    Might be more of Undying/Persist combo now. Only played this deck in a scrimmage set (playing against myself), and it won 2/3 with the same combo both times: Melira, 2 CMC Persist Elf, and Altar of Dementia (used Eladamri's Call to tutor Melira on one of the rounds). For a while I was having a hard time reconciling the differences needed for Persist and Undying to go infinite. Once I got a better handle on it, I was able to drop cards that can't easily hit infinite combos, such as needing colored mana.
  14. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Heh. Both lists still W/B/G. And the overlap with mine is actually not that prevalent, which probably shouldn't surprise me but might anyway. I've been remiss in updating my own Commander deck, but I want to get to that soon. It deserves an update with the "official" official unbanning of Protean Hulk, which is an insane card. Well, it's going to be insane in my deck, anyway. I'll be cheating it into play. For your two decks, seven mana is probably a bit much...

    Anyway, I really like your Ghave list now. Lots of cool shenanigans with that deck.
  15. Terentius The Instigator

    There are thoughts in the back of my mind to cut black and/or Planeswalkers, but they haven't convinced me that I can't win and do it with 4 or more Planeswalkers out for mega style points. This deck would be slower in competitive 1v1 Commander for sure; it's more casual.

    Would you mind posting your deck list to tappedout.net or some place with card images on hover? I could get a better grasp of your deck that way. You can make it so the link isn't public.

    Thank you! What a nice thing to say!
  16. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Oh, it's already on TappedOut! Here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/gitrog-county-municipal-lake-dredge-appraisal/

    I forget if that's completely identical to the latest list on the thread here, but both should be very, very close to the actual decklist as it sits in my deckbox. But as you can see, I haven't updated it in what is approaching a year. I had tentatively planned to take it apart, put the Bazaar in a Vintage dredge deck, and switch to a Leovold deck, but I never got around to it.

    My plan is to incorporate more discard and sac outlets and squeeze in a package of Academy Rector, Boonweaver Giant, and Pattern of Rebirth. Well, that was the going to be the main update. But Protean Hulk could be an even bigger game-changer. My deck is, much of the time, aiming to circumvent mana costs by building engines that put my creatures directly onto the battlefield. Karador is just a convenient way to get some of the components of such engines out of my graveyard. But you're generally hardcasting your creatures and instead building engines that take advantage of tokens and counters, a role for which Ghave is is a perfect fit. I'll try to see if anything in particular seems to be missing, but your list seems pretty combotastic.

    Hm, there is Walking Ballista. Seems like it does what your deck wants. But it's going to have an inflated pricetag until it rotates out of Standard, so unless you pulled one in a pack or something, it might be a bit much...
  17. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I haven't even seen a Ghave deck in a while and I forget some of the nuances of what was best, but I'm going to throw some ideas out there anyway...

    Bounty of the Hunt (your deck seems well-positioned to take advantage of it)
    Diabolic Intent (sure looks a lot better for this deck than Diabolic Tutor)
    Saproling Cluster (just because I spot both Fecundity and Ashnod's Altar)
    Voice of Resurgence (a bit expensive, but whee!)
    Wall of Roots (with so many +1/+1 counters dropping onto your team, this could be a viable mana source)
    Quillspike (note that it grows infinitely large with Devoted Druid and plays nicely with Persist guys)
    Flourishing Defenses (a bit too much mana for such an enchantment for my taste, but it has quite the synergy with some of your cards)
    Eternal Witness (obvious utility)
  18. Terentius The Instigator

    Great! I'll study it in detail later.

    Yeah, it's nice because some of these low CMC guys don't even do anything besides die and come back, but then I use just one other card that undoes the price they pay for coming back. And then I just need a win-con-on-infinite-sacrifice. Or it could not be a win-con and I just build up or go infinite with something. Also, the games Ghave deck won were 4 or 5 turns, I think.

    You know, I actually opened one of these; it must be buried in an unsorted pile someplace. It would serve the same role as Triskelion in Mike/Trike, as well as other win-con possibilities.
  19. Terentius The Instigator

    Bounty of the Hunt - one-time effect
    Diabolic Intent - It would be great for this deck. Diabolic Tutor was just the best I had on hand and threw in last minute.
    Saproling Cluster - not infinite, but large scale and easily repeatable, plus lets me draw for a win con
    Voice of Resurgence - it is pricey, but I could use it in both Combo and Beats
    Wall of Roots - Right now I like mana sources that use counters, like Crystalline Crawler or maybe Gyre Sage. Except Devoted Druid, which has infinite combo potential.
    Quillspike - I did snag one of these, but it needs colored mana, and even if it does go infinite it just hits one person, and doesn't have haste or evasion.
    Flourishing Defenses - solid potential, but high CMC
    Eternal Witness - This card's almost a staple in Commander. Including it couldn't hurt, especially to get back a combo piece that got destroyed.
  20. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Yeah, it's probably not actually worth it in this deck, but I was thinking of ideal scenarios, like canceling out the -1/-1 counters on three different Persist creatures so that they're all "reset" by a spell that costs no mana. But you really want to be going for something like Mikaeus or Melira faster instead of messing around with smaller versions of the effect.

    Wall of Roots does use counters, just not in a way you can really take advantage of, as far as I can see.

    I mean, it needs colored mana that can be either of two of your colors, and it's one mana to peel a -1/-1 counter off one of your creatures, which is really not a bad deal. But I suppose it depends on the types of games you find yourself in. I could picture a lot of multiplayer games where if no one at the table can stop you from executing the combo, you probably only have one person who constitutes a threat that must be stopped right away, so you kill that one opponent and save the other ones for later. But if you're usually in games with larger numbers of opponents or something, I can see why it just wouldn't be worth it.

    Yeah, I've never used it myself. Seems like a great effect, but five mana is quite the investment for something like this.

    Alright, let me try a few more...

    Winding Constrictor (bad with Persist, but great with the other stuff)
    Vizier of Remedies (wannabe Melira)
    Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons (Persist-based loops turn into token-making engines)
    Sun Titan (general value there)
    Spike Weaver (fog whenever you need to)
    Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter (not a cheap spell to cast, but I've gotten a lot of mileage out of it)
    Requiem Angel (haven't tried it myself, but I've seen others have success with this)

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