WGB Token Commander

Terentius

The Instigator
This needs its own thread methinks. This is my first Commander deck from scratch besides the Sliver deck I made, and that was much easier. Of the cards I own now, a lot of them are passable but not good. I'm still inexperienced in this format, so I need help on making cuts but still keeping the token and planeswalker coalition themes.

For the initial phase until I cut down to 100, I'll group the cards by what their main role is, with further subcategories to assess how they curve with the deck. Cards in italics are cards I don't yet own. Strike-through indicates a cut, but I leave it in the list for reference. I'm leaving land specifications out for the most part; those can be addressed later.

I guess the main goal of the deck right now is to up the size of my tokens as quickly as possible, and let token generation and populate effects build an army. Not sure if tokens will be able to protect the 9 planeswalkers to build up to ultimate. Convoke things should help with speed. I don't think I have an alternate win condition other than damage; maybe add something that sacs creatures for life loss?

I will also be updating here, so you can more easily see card images and card count: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/07-01-15-FTt-wbg-token/. I plan on running about 35 lands, so the list below needs to be cut to 65.

UPDATE: Current lists for 2 distinct decks
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wbg-token-beats/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wbg-token-combo/

WGB Token Commander

-Commander-
Ghave, Guru of Spores

-Token Generators-
Single-instance
Small tokens (1/1 or 2/2)
Mausoleum Guard
Triplicate Spirits
Lingering Souls
Spectral Procession
Midnight Haunting
Fists of Ironwood
Avenger of Zendikar
Syphon Flesh
Army of the Damned
Seed Spark
Aura Mutation
Hornet Queen
Symbiotic Worm
Cobra Trap
Promise of Bunrei
Rousing of Souls
Nomads' Assembly
Geist-Honored Monk
Hornet Nest
Mana tokens
Gild
Corpsehatch
Growth Spasm
Big tokens (3/3 or 4/4)
Trostani's Summoner
Call of the Conclave
Horncaller's Chant
Alive/Well
Thragtusk
Devout Invocation
Courser's Accord
Centaur's Herald
Huge tokens (5/5 and up)
Voice of Resurgence?
Armada Wurm
Grove of the Guardian
Phyrexian Rebirth
Advent of the Wurm
---------------------------------
Continuous/repeatable
Small tokens
Twilight Drover
Necrogenesis
Night Soil
Spawnwrithe
Druidic Satchel
Utopia Mycon
Curse of Shallow Graves
Grave Titan
Selesnya Evangel
Verdant Embrace
Master of the Wild Hunt
Precinct Captain
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Squirrel Nest
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
Mana tokens
Awakening Zone
Pawn of Ulamog
Big tokens
Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
Kazandu Tuskcaller
Rampaging Baloths
Luminarch Ascension
Garruk, Apex Predator
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Huge tokens
Spawning Grounds
Giant Adephage

-Things that populate or multiply token numbers (not generate)-
Single-instance
Druid's Deliverance
Rootborn Defenses
Trostani's Judgement
Sundering Growth
Continuous/repeatable
Wayfaring Temple
Parallel Lives
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
Growing Ranks
Primal Vigor
Rhys the Redeemed
Doubling Season

-Token/all creature enhancers-
Single-instance
Overrun
Overwhelming Stampede
Triumph of the Hordes
Continuous/repeatable
Dolmen Gate
Akroma's Memorial
Intangible Virtue
Brave the Sands
True Conviction
Cathars' Crusade
Hardened Scales
Maw of the Obzedat
Pheres-Band Warchief
Phantom General
Emmara Tandris
Eldrazi Monument
Sigil Captain
Beastmaster Ascension
Mirari's Wake
Juniper Order Ranger
Archangel of Thune
Angelic Skirmisher
Ajani Steadfast
Ajani Goldmane

-Things with convoke-
Devouring Light
Siege Wurm
Hour of Reckoning
Chord of Calling
Nissa's Expedition
Scatter the Seeds
Seraph of the Masses
Sprout Swarm
Sundering Vitae

-Other creature beaters (only do damage)-
Unruly Mob
Crusader of Odric
Bronzebeak Moa
Nantuko Husk
Protean Hydra
Copperhoof Vorrac
Centaur Healer

-Other utility-
Ancient Craving
Journey to Nowhere
Aura Shards
Indrik Umbra
Unflinching Courage
Eternal Thirst
Diabolic Tutor
Verdant Haven
Altar's Reap
Sylvan Scrying
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Attrition
Wax/Wane
Austere Command
Ray of Revelation
Loxodon Hierarch
The Chain Veil
Whip of Erebos
Tablet of the Guilds
Champion of Stray Souls
Vraska the Unseen

-Old cards I should use-
Gaea's Cradle
Recurring Nightmare
Phyrexian Altar
Ashnod's Altar
Earthcraft
Citanul Hierophants
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Juniper Order Ranger: If you use Ashnod's Altar, this would be an excellent inclusion. Both cards are good with token-generators on their own, and together with Ghave, they go infinite. Sigil Captain also has that potential, although I'd prefer the Ranger.

Blood Artist/Falkenreath Noble: You'd probably get targeted by other players for this, but it could hit hard.

Wurmcoil Engine: It does make tokens.

Skullclamp: It's in the Counterpunch deck, because even WotC recognizes how powerful the synergy is.

Ivy Lane Denizen: Another Ghave synergy.

Geralf's Messenger: Take a counter from it, sacrifice it, take a counter from it, sacrifice it, take a counter from it...

Mikaeus, the Unhallowed: Since Ghave is best friends with Undying creatures, why not make all your creatures Undying?

Kitchen Finks: Or any useful Persist creature. Sacrifice tokens through Ghave to get rid of those pesky -1/-1 counters.
 

Terentius

The Instigator
Juniper Order Ranger: If you use Ashnod's Altar, this would be an excellent inclusion. Both cards are good with token-generators on their own, and together with Ghave, they go infinite. Sigil Captain also has that potential, although I'd prefer the Ranger.

Blood Artist/Falkenreath Noble: You'd probably get targeted by other players for this, but it could hit hard.

Wurmcoil Engine: It does make tokens.

Skullclamp: It's in the Counterpunch deck, because even WotC recognizes how powerful the synergy is.

Ivy Lane Denizen: Another Ghave synergy.

Geralf's Messenger: Take a counter from it, sacrifice it, take a counter from it, sacrifice it, take a counter from it...

Mikaeus, the Unhallowed: Since Ghave is best friends with Undying creatures, why not make all your creatures Undying?

Kitchen Finks: Or any useful Persist creature. Sacrifice tokens through Ghave to get rid of those pesky -1/-1 counters.

Yeah, those are all great! Especially Blood Artist for 2 CMC.

But I feel like my deck ended up in a different place then when I started. If I'm going for more infinite combos, then I do I need hardly any single-instance cards at all, like Overwhelming Stampede or Triplicate Spirits? Should I leave only the best ones in? I could make room to put all the above in, Juniper and Sigil Cap back in, and Grave Pact, and a bunch of other stuff! Ooh, maybe I could split this into two Commander decks! One more combo-oriented, the other being more of a creature-beater.

Whether I split the deck or not, what about the planeswalkers? Will they as a group work in a more combo-oriented deck, or do specific ones not work?

Also, could you explain Kitchen Finks and Ghave? Does putting a +1/+1 counter on a Persist creature cancel out with the -1/-1 counter from Persist?
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Like Murderous Redcap?
Yeah, it would work well, but not in Commander, on account of the "color identity" rules.

If I'm going for more infinite combos, then I do I need hardly any single-instance cards at all, like Overwhelming Stampede or Triplicate Spirits? Should I leave only the best ones in? I could make room to put all the above in, Juniper and Sigil Cap back in, and Grave Pact, and a bunch of other stuff! Ooh, maybe I could split this into two Commander decks! One more combo-oriented, the other being more of a creature-beater.
There are a lot of different directions to go, but Ghave seems such a natural fit for a combo-oriented approach. It wouldn't necessarily have to be infinite, of course.

Whether I split the deck or not, what about the planeswalkers? Will they as a group work in a more combo-oriented deck, or do specific ones not work?
Well, I think that Garruk Relentless is superb in a Ghave deck. Some of the others have synergy too, although going all-in on the planeswalker theme probably weakens the deck a bit.

Also, could you explain Kitchen Finks and Ghave? Does putting a +1/+1 counter on a Persist creature cancel out with the -1/-1 counter from Persist?
Yes, way back during the Time Spiral rules update, they made it so that +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out.
 

Terentius

The Instigator
Split. Cut both to 100. Cards in both decks are colored green.


WGB Token Combo - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wbg-token-combo/
Commander - Ghave, Guru of Spores
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Attrition
1x aura mutation
1x Aura Shards
1x blasting station
1x Blood Artist
1x carnage altar
1x cathar's crusade
1x champion of lambholt
1x Champion of Stray Souls
1x Chord of Calling
1x Citanul Hierophants
1x diabolic tutor
1x Doomed traveler
1x Doubling Season
1x dread drone
1x Earthcraft
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x exsanguinate
12x Forest
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
1x geist-honored monk
1x geralf's messenger
1x grave pact
1x Grave Titan
1x Grove of the Guardian
1x harsh sustenance
1x Hour of Reckoning
1x Juniper Order Ranger
1x kitchen finks
1x kozilek's predator
1x Lingering Souls
1x Luminarch Ascension
1x martyr's bond
1x melira, sylvok outcast
1x Midnight Haunting
1x mikaeus, the unhallowed
1x Necrogenesis
1x Nim deathmantle
1x Nissa's Expedition
1x Parallel Lives
1x pawn of ulamog
1x Phyrexian Altar
13x Plains
1x Primal Vigor
1x puppeteer clique
1x Scatter the Seeds
1x Seed Spark
1x Seraph of the Masses
1x Sigil Captain
1x skullclamp
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Spawning Grounds
1x Spectral Procession
1x Squirrel Nest
1x sun titan
1x Sundering Growth
1x Sundering Vitae
8x Swamp
1x Teneb, the Harvester
1x triskelion
1x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
1x Twilight Drover
1x unruly mob
1x Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
1x Vraska the Unseen
1x woodfall primus

I put a lot of combos I knew of/read about into this deck. Have no idea how it will fare pacing-wise, but there are certainly a lot of ways to end the game in one turn. I cut some of the planeswalkers from this one.


WGB Token Beats - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wbg-token-beats/
Commander - Ghave, Guru of Spores
1x Advent of the Wurm
1x Ajani Goldmane
1x Ajani Steadfast
1x Akroma's Memorial
1x Alive / Well
1x archangel of thune
1x armada wurm
1x aura mutation
1x Aura Shards
1x Awakening Zone
1x Beastmaster Ascension
1x brave the sands
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Call of the Conclave
1x cathar's crusade
1x champion of lambholt
1x Champion of Stray Souls
1x Chord of Calling
1x Corpsehatch
1x Devout Invocation
1x Doubling Season
1x eldrazi monument
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Fists of Ironwood
12x Forest
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Giant Adephage
1x Gild
1x Grove of the Guardian
1x Growing Ranks
1x Growth Spasm
1x hardened scales
1x Hour of Reckoning
1x Intangible Virtue
1x Kazandu Tuskcaller
1x Lingering Souls
1x Luminarch Ascension
1x Midnight Haunting
1x Mirari's Wake
1x Necrogenesis
1x Nissa's Expedition
1x Overwhelming Stampede
1x Parallel Lives
13x Plains
1x Primal Vigor
1x Quest for the Gravelord
1x Rampaging Baloths
1x Rhys the Redeemed
1x Scatter the Seeds
1x Seed Spark
1x selesnya charm
1x Seraph of the Masses
1x Siege Wurm
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Sundering Growth
1x Sundering Vitae
8x Swamp
1x The Chain Veil
1x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
1x true conviction
1x utopia mycon
1x Verdant Haven
1x Vraska the Unseen
1x Wayfaring Temple
1x Whip of Erebos

This is probably closer to the deck I was originally going for, but... it doesn't seem to make much use of black. Is Selesnya more suited to this type of deck?

Any cards cards that got cut you think I should reconsider?
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Perhaps if you want to also do a creature swarm deck, the commander should be Rhys, the Redeemed?
 

Terentius

The Instigator
Perhaps if you want to also do a creature swarm deck, the commander should be Rhys, the Redeemed?
Yeah, I figured as much. If I cut black from Token Beats, it might look something like:
-1 Ghave
-1 Champion of Stray Souls
-1 Corpsehatch
-1 Garruk, Apex Predator
-1 Gild
-1 Necrogenesis
-1 Lingering Souls
-1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
-1 Vraska the Unseen
-1 Whip of Erebos
-1 Quest for the Gravelord
+1 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
+1 Garruk Wildspeaker
+1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
+1 Dolmen Gate
+1 Thragtusk
+1 Triplicate Spirits
+1 Citanul Hierophants
+1 Copperhoof Vorrac
+1 Bronzebreak Moa
+1 Rootborn Defenses
+1 Druid's Deliverance

I'm in no rush to build this deck, as I don't even have anyone to play Commander with. Trying to build a deck only to have the design fail is exhausting to me, so I'll put a pin in this for now and come back later.
 

Spiderman

CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant
Staff member
Yeah, that's just the first MP Commander game in a long time. Mooseman and I have been dueling just with each other with first the 2012 and now the 2013 Commander decks. I'll play you with any of the precons.
 

Terentius

The Instigator
Met up with a new playgroup that's interested in Commander, so I got these decks built, as well as adding in sweet cards that have come out since I made the list, like Cryptolith Rite and Anointed Procession. Updated deck lists here (will update specific land enumerations later):

Token beats: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wbg-token-beats/
EDIT: Necrogenesis and Lingering Souls were removed, will update with the missing cards
Had to cut a lot of fun cards in order to shove in 12 Planeswalkers and go both wide and long with tokens. Ended up keeping black, and switching over to a couple of new Commanders with Partner. I got to test a version prior to that in a few games, and it had solid performances.

Token combo: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wbg-token-combo/
Might be more of Undying/Persist combo now. Only played this deck in a scrimmage set (playing against myself), and it won 2/3 with the same combo both times: Melira, 2 CMC Persist Elf, and Altar of Dementia (used Eladamri's Call to tutor Melira on one of the rounds). For a while I was having a hard time reconciling the differences needed for Persist and Undying to go infinite. Once I got a better handle on it, I was able to drop cards that can't easily hit infinite combos, such as needing colored mana.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Heh. Both lists still W/B/G. And the overlap with mine is actually not that prevalent, which probably shouldn't surprise me but might anyway. I've been remiss in updating my own Commander deck, but I want to get to that soon. It deserves an update with the "official" official unbanning of Protean Hulk, which is an insane card. Well, it's going to be insane in my deck, anyway. I'll be cheating it into play. For your two decks, seven mana is probably a bit much...

Anyway, I really like your Ghave list now. Lots of cool shenanigans with that deck.
 

Terentius

The Instigator
Heh. Both lists still W/B/G. And the overlap with mine is actually not that prevalent, which probably shouldn't surprise me but might anyway.
There are thoughts in the back of my mind to cut black and/or Planeswalkers, but they haven't convinced me that I can't win and do it with 4 or more Planeswalkers out for mega style points. This deck would be slower in competitive 1v1 Commander for sure; it's more casual.

Oversoul said:
I've been remiss in updating my own Commander deck, but I want to get to that soon. It deserves an update with the "official" official unbanning of Protean Hulk, which is an insane card. Well, it's going to be insane in my deck, anyway. I'll be cheating it into play. For your two decks, seven mana is probably a bit much...
Would you mind posting your deck list to tappedout.net or some place with card images on hover? I could get a better grasp of your deck that way. You can make it so the link isn't public.


Oversoul said:
Anyway, I really like your Ghave list now. Lots of cool shenanigans with that deck.
Thank you! What a nice thing to say!
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Oh, it's already on TappedOut! Here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/gitrog-county-municipal-lake-dredge-appraisal/

I forget if that's completely identical to the latest list on the thread here, but both should be very, very close to the actual decklist as it sits in my deckbox. But as you can see, I haven't updated it in what is approaching a year. I had tentatively planned to take it apart, put the Bazaar in a Vintage dredge deck, and switch to a Leovold deck, but I never got around to it.

My plan is to incorporate more discard and sac outlets and squeeze in a package of Academy Rector, Boonweaver Giant, and Pattern of Rebirth. Well, that was the going to be the main update. But Protean Hulk could be an even bigger game-changer. My deck is, much of the time, aiming to circumvent mana costs by building engines that put my creatures directly onto the battlefield. Karador is just a convenient way to get some of the components of such engines out of my graveyard. But you're generally hardcasting your creatures and instead building engines that take advantage of tokens and counters, a role for which Ghave is is a perfect fit. I'll try to see if anything in particular seems to be missing, but your list seems pretty combotastic.

Hm, there is Walking Ballista. Seems like it does what your deck wants. But it's going to have an inflated pricetag until it rotates out of Standard, so unless you pulled one in a pack or something, it might be a bit much...
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
I haven't even seen a Ghave deck in a while and I forget some of the nuances of what was best, but I'm going to throw some ideas out there anyway...

Bounty of the Hunt (your deck seems well-positioned to take advantage of it)
Diabolic Intent (sure looks a lot better for this deck than Diabolic Tutor)
Saproling Cluster (just because I spot both Fecundity and Ashnod's Altar)
Voice of Resurgence (a bit expensive, but whee!)
Wall of Roots (with so many +1/+1 counters dropping onto your team, this could be a viable mana source)
Quillspike (note that it grows infinitely large with Devoted Druid and plays nicely with Persist guys)
Flourishing Defenses (a bit too much mana for such an enchantment for my taste, but it has quite the synergy with some of your cards)
Eternal Witness (obvious utility)
 

Terentius

The Instigator
Oh, it's already on TappedOut! Here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/gitrog-county-municipal-lake-dredge-appraisal/

My plan is to incorporate more discard and sac outlets and squeeze in a package of Academy Rector, Boonweaver Giant, and Pattern of Rebirth. Well, that was the going to be the main update. But Protean Hulk could be an even bigger game-changer. My deck is, much of the time, aiming to circumvent mana costs by building engines that put my creatures directly onto the battlefield. Karador is just a convenient way to get some of the components of such engines out of my graveyard.
Great! I'll study it in detail later.

But you're generally hardcasting your creatures and instead building engines that take advantage of tokens and counters, a role for which Ghave is is a perfect fit. I'll try to see if anything in particular seems to be missing, but your list seems pretty combotastic.
Yeah, it's nice because some of these low CMC guys don't even do anything besides die and come back, but then I use just one other card that undoes the price they pay for coming back. And then I just need a win-con-on-infinite-sacrifice. Or it could not be a win-con and I just build up or go infinite with something. Also, the games Ghave deck won were 4 or 5 turns, I think.

Oversoul said:
Hm, there is Walking Ballista. Seems like it does what your deck wants. But it's going to have an inflated pricetag until it rotates out of Standard, so unless you pulled one in a pack or something, it might be a bit much...
You know, I actually opened one of these; it must be buried in an unsorted pile someplace. It would serve the same role as Triskelion in Mike/Trike, as well as other win-con possibilities.
 

Terentius

The Instigator
Bounty of the Hunt - one-time effect
Diabolic Intent - It would be great for this deck. Diabolic Tutor was just the best I had on hand and threw in last minute.
Saproling Cluster - not infinite, but large scale and easily repeatable, plus lets me draw for a win con
Voice of Resurgence - it is pricey, but I could use it in both Combo and Beats
Wall of Roots - Right now I like mana sources that use counters, like Crystalline Crawler or maybe Gyre Sage. Except Devoted Druid, which has infinite combo potential.
Quillspike - I did snag one of these, but it needs colored mana, and even if it does go infinite it just hits one person, and doesn't have haste or evasion.
Flourishing Defenses - solid potential, but high CMC
Eternal Witness - This card's almost a staple in Commander. Including it couldn't hurt, especially to get back a combo piece that got destroyed.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Bounty of the Hunt - one-time effect
Yeah, it's probably not actually worth it in this deck, but I was thinking of ideal scenarios, like canceling out the -1/-1 counters on three different Persist creatures so that they're all "reset" by a spell that costs no mana. But you really want to be going for something like Mikaeus or Melira faster instead of messing around with smaller versions of the effect.

Wall of Roots - Right now I like mana sources that use counters, like Crystalline Crawler or maybe Gyre Sage. Except Devoted Druid, which has infinite combo potential.
Wall of Roots does use counters, just not in a way you can really take advantage of, as far as I can see.

Quillspike - I did snag one of these, but it needs colored mana, and even if it does go infinite it just hits one person, and doesn't have haste.
I mean, it needs colored mana that can be either of two of your colors, and it's one mana to peel a -1/-1 counter off one of your creatures, which is really not a bad deal. But I suppose it depends on the types of games you find yourself in. I could picture a lot of multiplayer games where if no one at the table can stop you from executing the combo, you probably only have one person who constitutes a threat that must be stopped right away, so you kill that one opponent and save the other ones for later. But if you're usually in games with larger numbers of opponents or something, I can see why it just wouldn't be worth it.

Flourishing Defenses - solid potential, but high CMC
Yeah, I've never used it myself. Seems like a great effect, but five mana is quite the investment for something like this.

Alright, let me try a few more...

Winding Constrictor (bad with Persist, but great with the other stuff)
Vizier of Remedies (wannabe Melira)
Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons (Persist-based loops turn into token-making engines)
Sun Titan (general value there)
Spike Weaver (fog whenever you need to)
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter (not a cheap spell to cast, but I've gotten a lot of mileage out of it)
Requiem Angel (haven't tried it myself, but I've seen others have success with this)
 
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