Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by Spiderman, Aug 5, 2013.
I can't believe I read the who;e thing.
It's what they do...
I can't believe no one else wanted to put in their two cents
I've been involved with the tournament end of magic since Tempest in 1997 and playing since 4th came out and I have heard all the complaints from tourney players for most these changes. The tournament players take most of the changes in stride since they are going to be affected by them, but they complain and proclaim doom and gloom all the time. But the biggest change was the 6th edition rules change since it was something they had to deal with (as did us judges). But I don't remember many players saying that magic was going to die because of it. Mostly it was about how it was going to effect the competitive scene and now it seems to be all about how it will effect card prices.
But this just my experience with the limited exposure I have to the game.
Well, IIRC (in concert with a few other, more personal factors) 6th ed. was around when I stopped buying cards as religiously, and I never went to another tourney again, so in a way it helped kill it for me...
Really TomB? Wow... Did you just stop buying cards or flat-out stop playing altogether?
Well, I didn't stop buying cards altogether - I just slowed down a lot. I used to buy 2 boxes every time a stand alone got released, and a box for each of the component expansions. I still bought a few cards here and there for a while, but not like I had been, and I really chose not to do any deckbuilding trying to use/abuse the new rules on principle...lol
As a result there was no point to trying to participate in tournament play. Having no type 2 competitive decks made was part of that I guess, but it didn't really matter because the whole scene in my neighborhood kinda died out anyways. It also didn't help that once or twice when I did get the chance to play a casual game I had to deal with explaining to someone how tapping my Howling Mine at the end of my turn really did prevent them from drawing an extra card from it, or how tapping my Winter Orb at the end of their turn meant I could untap all MY lands but they still couldn't untap theirs since the Orb was untapped at the start of THEIR turn.
That got kinda old quick.
I still play with my kids every once in a while. My youngest (who's 19) fell in with a group of people playing in a gamer club at his community college, so I bought my first box of cards for myself in years for Christmas this year and we've gotten a chance to play around with some of the newer cards. I'm sure once the new school year starts up we'll find a reason to buy a few more cards to try and spice his decks up a bit, and we'll get some more playtime in...
TomB, What did you buy and for how much? I am curious what people actually pay for the physical cards.
Does anyone else buy physical cards on here?... not you KJ, I know that you still buy some, just not from me!!!!!
Did anyone else change their playing/buying habits change with any of the rules?
What killed MtG for me had zero to do with Wizards... I lost contact with the other *core* players in my playgroup. They simply moved away for the most part outside of 1-2 of them, and playing 3 player magic was and is just no fun.
Even though we weren't in tournaments - we used the banned/restricted list because it really made sense to us. Anyone could see having more than 1 sol ring really was overpowered and the same with the other restricted cards. We had a couple Mr. Suitcases, and that sort of sucked too. One guy had 4-5 white decks all carrying 4 Serra Angels and every one of his many many decks had a sol ring... Another guy only had 1 of a couple cards like Sol Ring and Maze of Ith - and he literally moved them manually from deck to deck during an evening. So, it was a range of players, card libraries, and abilities. I know there are other playgroups in town - I just don't feel like trying to reconnect to MtG right now. I played competitively for a few years, then really focused more on casual and judging (which got me a fair amount of product).
When we first started, we played for Ante. That lasted 1 night, I won 5 or 6 MP games and got all the antes (many lands to my recollection). I doubt anyone plays for Ante anymore...
I've heard mixed accounts of just how prevalent ante ever was. Wizards of the Coast did basically kill that aspect of the game, or did what they needed to in order to let it die on its own perhaps. Contract From Below is so overpowered in Shandalar. Every deck I made in that game turned into a sort of draw-7 combo deck. Back when I first used my Relentless Pony deck, I brought Rebirth in from outside the game and some of my opponents used it to heal themselves, failing to even understand what it did, despite my explaining it when I cast the spell and then explaining it a second time once I got over my surprise at their failure to understand. I guess ante cards were unknown to a lot of (presumably newer) players even back then.
I got a box of I think it was Avacyn Restored for just under $100 online from a professional seller on eBay, IIRC. There was a local shop that was selling them for $115, but I figured I could do better than that...lol
I never did like the idea of playing for ante...
I didn't see it listed but when Tempest rotated out of standard my beloved 5CG deck was no more. I had just bought my Tradewind Riders to finish the deck and poof! My deck was no more. I thought about quitting but I didn't.
This was my case, although it didn't "kill" Magic for me, I just couldn't play in real life anymore. So that stopped me buying an expansion box as it was no use since I didn't have anyone to play with. I have you guys though!
Ante was a great idea personally as I also won more than I lost, but definitely as a whole, the idea of permanent losing a (valuable) card just sucks so why take the risk? Just play without ante and you still have the fun... I think there were different ideas floating around to try to make it more acceptable, like turning over a second card and choosing between the two, but it's hard to make any loss of a card palatable.
I didn't really change my buying or playing habits with the 6th ed rules, just tried to adjust my decks (if able) or make new ones...
Lately I've happened to come across some references to decks predating the four-card rule, something that was touched on in this thread, although all I can find are anecdotes anyway, as thorough documentation from that time is understandably sparse. Some players have said that power rares were relatively cheap back then, which really seems kind of obvious and also not very helpful. It wouldn't be surprising that people could pick up Black Lotus for $10 or so at one point, but how many did anyone actually accrue? One of the only purported first-turn-kill decklists I've actually seen cited as having been from that time was mentioned by Stephen Menendian, and was very simple: ten copies each of Black Lotus, Wheel of Fortune, Channel, and Fireball. But he didn't say anything about it other than that it was representative of the "degenerate era" of tournament Magic. So I don't know exactly when this deck was supposed to have been piloted in a tournament or what the rest of the field might have been like. I do like his content and I'm fascinated by the game's history, but not enough to actually go through a paywall for more of this stuff, so that was all I saw.
If that's actually the kind of deck that marked the "degenerate era" and was the sort of thing Mark Rosewater was talking about, well yeah, it would do the trick. What's striking about it to me is actually how bad it is. For a similar amount of 1st Edition rares, I'm pretty confident that I could make a more consistent 40-card deck. Which raises the question I'll probably never actually see answered: What was the most consistent first-turn kill deck actually comprised of physical cards that would have been tournament legal at the time the deck existed? Not that it's actually relevant to everything, but at some point before the rules changed, there existed the "best deck ever." And it was probably something like this ChannelBall deck. Technically powerful because of the lack of deckbuilding restrictions, but actually pretty primitive.
rakso might know. He's the only one I think who played around then.
Price might be relative. We all know $10 is cheap for a Lotus now, but back then, it might have been considered extremely expensive for a card for a new game. I spent $20? on a Library of Alexandria and thought that was pretty high at the time.
Mark mentions the dividing decks into "First Turn Win" (or Win Tournaments or whatever) and "Nots", so I imagine there were different decks floating around. But it would be interesting to know what exactly they were, I agree.
But he hasn't been active here in quite a while. I think other members in the past mentioned having been around in the very early days, but yeah, no one that is currently active.
Totally. I've been seeing a lot of examples of that sort of thing recently. My cards were sitting my closet untouched for almost two years. Due to the nature of where I live, that closet was inhospitable toward them (cards that were stored in cardboard boxes were exposed to mildew and moisture, which hit a lot of my Homelands cards pretty badly and did a bit of damage to some more relevant cards), and I had to bring them out, so I've been sorting them on my desk in preparation to encase everything in plastic. I have several copies of Force of Will. As a good uncommon, I used to see it being traded around and going in stores for around a dollar. I bought one for as much as $10 to complete a second playset of them at one point (I was doing a lot of deck-testing with Al0ysiusHWWW at the time) and was irritated at having to pay that much for an uncommon.
Other than the first-turn kill aspect, which isn't as prevalent, that could probably still describe many tournaments, especially local ones. I haven't attended a tournament since 2010, but in the last one I was at, which was a Legacy tournament, most of the field consisted of decks that could fairly be described as incapable of winning the tournament. I'm sure it still happens in some places.
I know, but you could try contactinghim at his last known email, if you're so inclined. Since he wrote a bunch of articles and I think he was pretty involved in the what-is-now-Vintage tourney scene, he was the first person I thought of who might have first-hand knowledge of what actually went down back then. Any others, not so much that I recall.
Separate names with a comma.