Theory on Solving Business and Government Facility Needs

N

Notepad

Guest
Just a little rant on theory I was coming up with (gonna be using a situation like this for some fiction, so I'm brainstorming "out loud" here). Please feel free to comment on it.


The problem faced by an ever-growing population and an ever-sadistic economy is where to put everything. Workplaces cannot provide enough jobs, though they need workers, because they cannot afford the new facilities and the overhead involved in doing so. Likewise, though a constantly growing consumer base is out there, stores become over-crowded to the point where standing in line with groceries for 40 minutes becomes something so acceptable it is scheduled into time concerns for shopping. Similarly, youth are affected as larger class sizes are the result of too many kids going into fewer schools, themselves facing budget problems from inability to house all students during school hours.

The obvious solution to the problem lies not within space, but time.

The world as we know it, in this modern day, operates mostly on one eight-hour cycle. Even on weekends, when customer and employee free time is more quantative, stores tend to only adjust their adherrence to the eight-hour cycle by only a few hours, if at all. Only a handful of places have broken out of the single-cycle day, and remain open for business at all hours. As long as they have customers walking in for business, they do well. Otherwise, the continuance of operations at a single cycle in the day means nothing else can ever be achieved.

But, what of those problems mentioned in the first paragraph? What if things became like a powder keg, to the point where society no longer had to think in terms of one eight-hour day, but in multiples. What if the need for more output by facilities, more jobs from citizens, and more education from students meant places that typically operated under one cycle were finally forced to expand to two, or three?

This is quite a real outcome. Colleges, and some continuation high schools, offer night classes, seeing the need to offer courses at night rather than the typical day. What if it were all like this, across the board?

Arrival at such an outcome would only take pressure from the masses. Of course, it might not be their will, but a necessity facilitated by their needs. One could imagine abusive bosses requiring workers to work three shifts for jobs that would normally have one. It is easy to imagine a school district so strapped for funding, that it decided to force students to attend night or early-morning classes in order to save money rather than build new classrooms.

A shift to two cycles would invariably lead to a shift to three cycles. Three eight-hour cycles, for all aspects of society. Much like a gas station clerk, knowing day, evening and swing shifts.

However, what would become of a society in which this happens? If all aspects were touched, then it would not become unusual to see somebody walking their dog or taking a jog at three in the morning "to get some excercise in before work." Night would no longer be the time of crime, as alert citizens would be up at all hours, streets and businesses active with at least one-third of the population at all times. Businesses and government offices, whether greedy or desperate, would find considerable savings in using one facility to house three sets of workers, or students.

There would no longer be a "noon rush" but rather, three of them. The pre-work "morning commute" of each shift would overlap the after-work "evening commute" of the previous shift, causing for the same traffic congestion we see today, only it would happen three times a day rather than two, and it would only involve 2/3 of the workers on the roads, not the full amount.

Adaptation would be difficult, but in a growing society, it makes the most sense to solve things temporally rather than spatially. Especially considering some jobs do not require working in the day time. In fact, many jobs don't require the sun being up. The sunlight cycle might be reserved for the wealthy, forcing the middle- and lower-classes to work in the morning or night shifts. The exception to this would be field workers, whose jobs require them to work in the sunlight. Besides a few in the "servant class" the daylight would almost certainly become dominated by the wealthy and priviledged.

Class structure might become more definable by the time a person works. Names might arise, depending on the cycle one falls within. Night workers, who would obsiously be lower on the scale than the daylight workers, might suffer the slur, "Luney" based off the word "luna" for moon.


...gonna end it right now because its all just brainstorming on theory. Not getting to a point at the moment. Perhaps in a later post.
 
N

Notepad

Guest
People for food...hmmm...sounds more like the hook for a humor storyline.

This thing, basically making all of society 24/7, seemed to make sense. It would certainly fix the problem of school crowding.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
You'd just have to overcome the basic ingrained "clock" (for lack of a better word) that nighttime is meant for sleeping and daytime is for waking.

And this is because you can natually "see" your surroundings during that day.

So to get aorund that, probably full-time lights or lamps are needed to mimic daytime.
 
N

Notepad

Guest
For a lot of people, especially "night owls" this clock is screwed up, anyway. But yeah, for people who's clocks are in working order, lights are definitely needed. However, many cities already light streets as soon as the sun goes down. No problem there. Just a little more lighting in gathering places and major foot traffic areas to help people out. Indoors, well, lights on are usual, even in daytime, thanks to windows being an inefficient lightsource in modern workplaces.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I think for your idea to work, the number of "night owls" would have to increae enormously. I think right now they're very much in the minority so keeping businesses open 24 hours isn't cost-effective for the owners.

There's lights but I think the intensity needs to be increased so people can't differentiate between daytime and nighttime (or increase it so there's hardly a difference). This could also increase electricity costs which may have an effect... current lighting doesn't do all that in preventing nighttime crimes :)
 
N

Notepad

Guest
-People tend to go to sleep at night not really because of their bio clocks, but more because everything centers around day in our society
-Lights are enough to keep people awake. There have probably been studies that say the neon lights of cubicle farms aren't as good as sunlight, but that hasn't stopped the proliferation of cubicle farms. People don't actually need full sunlight to work and live (probably only need it to best avoid stress and to get some vitamins which can be supplemented)
-The costs for 24-hour lightning would be far less the costs for a whole separate building
-Nighttime crimes exist because nobody is up at that hour, and the lighting is bad. Increasing the number of people out on the streets would reduce night and morning crimes.
-Stores aren't open 24-hours for the most part because of low customer foot traffic, and the crime thing. Increasing people on the streets reduces both problems.


I think this is a real possibility (though not a guaranteed one) because of the following scenario...

Imagine a factory that makes item X. Now, Item X sells well, but the CEOs and the higher ups take most of the profit, leaving little in the budget for new facilities (the way things really are). They need more employees, but the current Item X factories can only hold, say, 200 workers at one time. Research shows they could sell four times the quantity of Item X because of demand for it. So, they hire an extra 400 workers and have everyone of their now 600 employees work one of three eight-hour shifts. One block of 200 works 8am-4pm and is generally happy. The next shift works 4pm-12am and is a little grumpy, but they get a few hours of "overnight bonus pay" so they don't gripe much. The next block is the underdog group, working 12am-8am, but they get all hours as "overnight bonus pay" and don't get too angry at their situation. Overall, the company still isn't able to meet the demands of customers, but they can produce a helluva lot more Item X than they could before, and all they have to do is pay power bills rather than costs for two new factories. Funny enough, some places do this very thing, but it isn't that common.

Now, say demand for products forces more places to do this. Say, things in the economy get so bad more and more companies are forced to do the triple-cycle work day rather than get a new building.

Say, for example, employers realize that many office jobs don't need to be limited to daytime. Expense reports, data analysis, accounting, and all that fun stuff can really be done anytime. Negotiation jobs, of course, still need to be done in the daytime. So, offices change some of their workers to night and morning shifts. The same as the factory above, they can provide night pay bonuses to the night and morning workers to shut them up. And, they can hire a lot more people to do a lot more work without driving their expenses much higher than the wage expenses. Not a bad deal.

Now, you have both factories and office types stranded in the night and morning. There would be an increased incentive to stores that stay open 24-hours. Many more corner stores and gas stations stay open all day, following the lead of all the millions that already do. Supermarkets like Wal-Mart, who normally keep around 6am-11pm hours, would definitely be encouraged to stay open all hours in order to cater to these late-night or early-morning shoppers. Places like Walgreens, Safeway and FoodMax already stay open 24-hours in most locations. Other businesses upping their hours is not a far reach, and in fact seems outright logical as a next step.

So at that point there are many more non-day workers, and the commercial shops are much more "night owl friendly." From here, things can move on.

Day care services might operate at night and morning, with workers having to take care of new babies, but both parents working late hours. This "newborn up at night" care would easily expand to all toddlers normally put in day care. Especially with the next step.

If parents are stuck working nights and mornings, they will likely find it difficult to school their children in the daytime. Colleges and community high schools offer night courses already. Many schools wish to cater to students with internet courses. It is only logical that with an increased demand for night schools, high schools would normally open their doors to night classes. Next would come middle schools, and reluctantly following behind would be elementary schools.

At first, it would be seen as a necessary evil that kids be sent to school in the middle of the night, but by that time, more people would be up at night at the whole "the night is when the devil comes out" superstition that nearly everone has (they just replace "devil" with something like "criminals" or "drug addicts"...and this superstition is hugely that, a silly belief--crimes occurr in the daytime, as does drug use. And the devil is a 24-hour villain, if you keep up with your mythology) would be all but gone. In fact, school districts would be secretly blowing a figurative load of happiness over this situation.

Everyone knows that schools suffer overloaded classrooms. They can hire a few teachers here and there, but those costs are normally associated with getting new classrooms, something they totally cannot do. Some schools today have turned to shared classrooms, split classrooms, trailers, or just overloading one teacher with upwards of 40 students. Having three cycles of school in one day means you can have three times the number of teachers and could teach three times the students with the one school and its one set of classrooms. No more having to worry about budgeting in those ten new trailer classrooms. They can keep with the nice foundation classrooms and just rotate teachers and students through cycles. This runs the drawback of the teachers whining about having to share a desk and poster space with a counterpart they never see, but that is a totally minor whine. Personally, I've seen teachers sharing classrooms in high school and college without a problem at all.

Once schools have been converted to this frame of mind, the rest is basically easy. With the foundation of the society's learning locked in a triple-cycle operation, it would follow that nearly every other business and office would soon convert, because with stores AND schools finally open 24-hours, there's no longer an excuse to stay inside and not play at night. ;)

My opinion. Makes sense to me. Especially since I see things more pessimistically and cynically, and believe employers would start the whole process by making workers work crappy hours (and to a minor degree, they already have started this process).

The only major issue remaining would be lightning. Here is the stumbling block that I totally agree with Spiderman on. Some people will be so whiny that they need sunlight, that they'll resist this whole change. Not really a big deal, because as a night owl, I can honestly say sunlight ain't worth much of a damn anyway, at least on a personal level. Take vitamins if you're low, stay in well-lit rooms, and just enjoy your time, no matter how dark it is outside. This is all well and good for people personally and indoors, but it does nothing for outdoors.

You can light a public square or some town streets, but you cannot light every highway and biway out there. People will still have to drive in the dark. Not a problem, because if they're awake as part of their cycle (and not tired because they're used to being awake only in the daytime) then night driving is not such a big problem. They'll adapt, but they still will have more accidents and problems thanks to low visibility. Not a *huge* deal, really, when it means keeping a bad economy alive.

Then comes the rest of the outdoors. So you're limited to jogging on city streets, because the back trails aren't lit. Some municipalities can light walking/jogging trails. My own city has lights set up on a dirt path between the city and the rural area, to help people see and get over their "devil plays at night" superstition. Of course, a city park or a national wilderness refuge cannot be enjoyed at night. So what? A very minor problem.

Economically, this is nothing but benefit. Stress-wise, to individuals, it would certainly pester them, but not enough to be a factor against economics. Crime-wise, it would accually clear up a lot of the "devil night crime" and make things more friendly around the clock. Those would be replaced with increased accidents from night driving, but those would be a small statistical increase, and again not anything to lose a lot of sleep over.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Again, it's a whole paradigm shift which makes it interesting AND hard to overcome ingrained settings, but...

Economy in general. From your scenario it sounds like as more and more factories get on board, it drives the rest. And to get the first few factories or products on board, you need a lot of demand. I don't see any products in such demand now where they need to increase production. Especially with the economy being rather stagnant right now (I know YOU don't mean right now - this seems to be a long-term plan).

Oh, except maybe hybrid cars.

And if they increase production, it'd be a fine line where they keep prices high enough to make a profit and where the price starts to fall. Continuing on your pessimistic note about executives, if all this extra money was rolling in, they'd probably keep for themselves at only a slight increase of workers, not enough to cause 3 equal work shifts.

Additionally, if this gets rolling and the economy tanks again, which shift gets eliminated or cut back? I can't see cuts being made equally across the board because then they'd get down to the number of workers where they only had one shift to begin with (to take the cuts to an extreme).

About babies: not sure of what the numbers would be but I think you'd need an extreme amount of day care workers to take care of babies during the night. This could be the daylight-bias talking, but usually babies sleep at night because one, they need a lot of sleep to begin with and two, the daylight is "natural" to wake up and explore and see things "in the light". I guess you could have babies wake up and play and explore during the night but it just seems unnatural to have them up during those hours during their development period. :)

Schools: This is a pretty big obstacle. You may not see it, but overloaded classrooms ARE the result of having not enough teachers, not the having enough classroom space. And there are two reasons for that: money and not enough qualified applicants. Increase the former and you probably get more people into the field so you can get more of the latter, but at this point, the money is not there to draw prospective students in the teaching field (as opposed to say, computers or medicine). So for this to work, you'd probably need to increase taxes so the school money can increase.

That's about it.
 
N

Notepad

Guest
Yeah, the whole paradigm shift is definitely something that makes this interesting, I agree. All speculative for a "scifi/fantasy" speculative fiction piece. Not a pivotal thing, in fact it can be thrown out and the story would not suffer anything from it, except one character who lives under the "Star Cycle" of Midnight-8am and undergoes a total downward spiral. Though, it is related to his family status and his station in life, not on the time he lives his days.

The reason I see this all as so easy, especially the lightning thing, is because I've been veiwing this not as a speculative reality, but a speculative setting. Basically, my mind's been stuck in scifi mode, where people live on artificially lit starships with no night or day. Same for space stations. Sunlight is present in some places, but its much more an abstract sort of thing, as you do not rotate in and out of it, and windows are usually uncommon on ships.

Now, getting past just why I brought this whole theory up, and why I've been acting so "its not hard, it could definitely happen" time to keep discussing. :D :D :D

You're right Spidey, in that enough profit to employ three times the labor, combined with greedy fat cats, would mean the fat cats keep their money and care little for the workers. Fat cats, especially greedy ones, faced with expansion dreams and too little money, would rarely go for this strategy.

So then maybe it would have to be approached like I was approaching the schools, as a necessary evil. Instead of limited expansion, what if the businesses were encouraged to do this under cutback conditions? They needed to sell a factory or two or five to get rid of taxes, overhead, etc. But, they could still keep most of their workers. Or a lot of them, doesn't even have to be most. Say they've reduced from six factories to two or one, and kept half the workers. They could operate under the multicycle scenario, staying in business and cutting back on enough costs to do so without a budget loss. It seems this would be the catalyst to a night society, rather than the silly expansion idea I was talking about.

Though, this does not rule out expansion. However, that would seem somewhat rare. These places would be more of the reaction than the catalyst, like the gas stations and supermarkets react rather than spark.

By babies I had meant newborns. The way they shriek at all hours because they're still in that phase of learning just what their bodies do and what calls get what response. Night workers able to be with their kids in the daytime, though not at the crying nights, might find it suitable to eventually move for night daycare centers for their babies. This would likely be a gradual shift to other ages, as parents would prefer their kids be awake during the same peak hours they are, and not have to deal with kids being kids and getting in trouble when they're trying to get some sleep at noon. Basically, to keep the kids active at night or morning so they sleep at the same times their parents do.

Schools, I agree with your assessment that teachers are the bargaining chip in classroom expansion. However, school districts find ways to cut back on educator costs all the time. Faced with forced expansion, schools could find a way to be forced to pay for more teachers, but not more classrooms. Hell, they could even copy the business example and cut back in the number of classrooms while keeping the same number of teachers. Having less facility to care for means less operations overhead and even possible revenue in turning that spare land into a stadium or shared public library or something. In my time covering school board meetings for the newspaper, I've seen school boards discuss the hardships of getting building grants, and have seen them talk about the myriad of teaching grants. Basically, the government gives grants to schools all the time for tons of different things. Getting a grant to pay for a teacher for one year is more common than getting a grant to pay for a new classroom, because the classroom is a permanent expansion and costs more initially, and the teacher is just an education program. Yes, over time the teachers grants cost the government more, but they don't think about these things while evaluating budgets in a year-by-year basis (and they do...but that may be only in California, and also why he have this huge budget problem). Still, I think it would be more likely a school, faced with budget hardships, would rather cough up the money for budget teachers, than cough up the money for budget teachers plus budget portable classrooms, as long as more teachers could be dealt with in a system much like the three-cycle system I've mentioned. As it is now, with space limited and time limited to one eight-hour cycle, schools tend to do the "teacher and a portable" combo meal.

Thanks for discussing this with me, Spidey. Its helping a lot in fleshing out this idea of mine. Again, not even a substantial part of the story I'm working on, but something that seemed interesting enough to share, in a speculation sort of way. :D
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I think the factory thing is doable - I just see getting past their initial resistance as the biggest obstacle. It's always hard to be the first and be the "guinea pig".

Babies more or less shriek all night because they need to be fed. While certainly the workers can feed them via bottles, it comes down to the nursing community vs the bottle-fed community. Assuming there's an even split, it's just more convenient for the nursing community to be "right there" and nurse instead of pumping. Again, it's the paradigm shift problem as this might be able to be worked out as people become more adjusted to all hours.

I think the budget is a combination of grants and whatever they get from taxes and what is allocated to them. I know in Maryland, the systems always scramble to find qualified teachers - so much so that they end up hiring people on a provisional basis where they aren't "full" teachers yet but expect to become one within the year or so. Construction and overcrowding don't seem to be a pressing issue here, although it certainly happens; that's probably why they like portable trailers as extra classrooms because it's not a fixed construction cost. However, there's a definite need for upkeep and maintenence and I think that varies per school per school system - not sure how that breaks down.

In short, I still think alot more money needs to be pumped into the system to make this part work.

No prob on discussing this witcha :)
 
T

train

Guest
I think you could also look at a 9 hour shift, instead of the 8 hour - and it would relieve some of the traffic congestion you were mentioning...

but to get the business community looking this way, you need one thing the most - the stock market hours to change...
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Changing it to 9 hours won't help... there will always be more people for one, and as they try to get in earlier to beat the rush, they themselves cause the rush to become earlier. I see it now when I go to work - 10 years ago, hardly anyone was on the road at 6 in the morning. Now, it's very well traveled, although not at the point where there's brakelights.
 
T

train

Guest
Starting a day -
first shift from 7-4...
second from 3-12...
third from 11-8...

Those are the 9 hour shifts where the going in and coming off do not overlap...
 
T

train

Guest
there wouldn't be any "flex-time"...

sorry spidey:rolleyes:

I guess that means you'd be against it huh?...:cool:

It's just ideas... and it doesn't have to affect government jobs per se...;)
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Heh... probably....

The government is a major reason for the rush hour in the Baltimore/Washington area because it employs so many people...
 
N

Notepad

Guest
The idea of the stock market sounds pretty funny at first. Though, a 24-hour stock market makes the most sense logically, so it would only follow that over time traditions might be broken to keep up with businesses. Might not even be the USA that is the forerunner. Imagine an upstart APAC or European Union stock market heralding in 24-hour stats, and that helps out their market. Then USA would have to follow suit. Not a very likely scenario, though. Maybe it would be the other way around, with increased 24-hour operation forcing the stock markets of the world to follow.

I really doubt the nine-hour option, though. Employers don't like overtime. They'd rather pay somebody else part time pay than one of their original workers overtime. Actually, as you can see with schools around the country, the preferred method is employing multiple part-time workers than even one full-time worker. This allows for more hours without having to pay overtime. Additionally, depending on the power (or existence) of unions at the particular workplace, it also means no benefits have to be paid out, and thr worker's rights are nil. (I worked for a county library once, and since I was part-time, I was an at-will employee and had absolutely none of the glorious protections that the county government's union offered. They have teeth and use them often, but since I wasn't covered, well, I got screwed over and the union just shyed away from me when I turned to them). For employers, this is a huge advantage.

Rush hours are actually caused more by distance from workplaces than the type of work. You didn't see people leaving to work at 6 in the morning years ago because it was rather uncommon for employees to live 50+ miles away from their workplace. Nowadays, 70+ or even 90+ miles away is rather common. My neck of the woods in California sees a lot of Silicon Valley workers moving in. They can't afford houses in San Jose, but they work there. So they buy a house in Soledad, Ca (South Monterey County is around 100 miles away from the southern end of the Bay Area, which encompasses San Jose and San Francisco). Even if it is a few hours or driving, they don't mind because of the savings on their house. This means traffic congestion is caused by high housing prices, which is caused by lack of available houses along with the increased favor of a region for nice work. Its also caused by rampant greed, which is the heart of this whole discussion. ;)

The crisis of housing is something funny that I see, especially as a pizza delivery driver. Many many many families, faced with the inability to purchase houses with sufficient funds leftover to live with, instead purchase houses and then rent out rooms to other people. I've seen this so many times. Families living normally in their house, but the garage has been converted into a makeshift apartment. A little uncommon, but something I have seen a lot of, is the non-apartment and instead hutch-style conversion. Yeah, instead of an apartment garage, they just somewhat convert it to an apartment and then let six or so field workers rent it. You just see a bunch of bunk beds and one couch surrounding a TV. Is sad, but its what people are doing because of the lack of "low income housing" available.

Dunno if all that is even legal. It seems real inhumane and even against some zoning standards. I've seen another solution which is *very* common in my city, and I'd suspect elsewhere. Rather than rent out one room of their own house, many people with large yards have legally pursued replacing their yard with a real apartment or two. Driveway gets increased in length to go around the house, and you see one or two little buildings crowded way in the back.

Increasing profit margins from rent, some people have built the yard apartments, and went further by sectioning off their house to other families. Yes, I have seen this. A lot. As a pizza delivery driver, its a real pain in the butt. I get an order for say 1234 Main Street, but that address has an apartment in the back and the house itself is sectioned off into two apartment units. So you really have 1234, 1234-A, 1234-B, and 1234-C Main Street all on the same tiny lot, and whenever anybody orders from these places, they always fail to mention which one they are. It causes quite some confusion not only for delivery, but I'd imagine for emergency response, as well. The address can be a pain, but I feel sorry for the guy in 1234-C out in the back who needs an ambulance, but the huge van-vehicle can't fit through the tiny driveway leading to the former back yard. *shrugs and shakes head at the craziness*

Housing scenarios I think will probably undergo the most dramatic changes of anything in society in the current time being. In the coming decade, even. We'll likely see housing prices go upwards of half-million for the crappiest built of homes (shoddy-built homes in South Monterey County--an "afforable" region in California--go for prices STARTING in the high $300,000s now, and they continue to rise.) Because of this, traffic congestion will increase, as workers begin to live not 100+ miles away from their workplace, but possibly 150+ or 200+ miles away from work. At that point, mass transit systems become an absolute necessity. Gas prices in cali are already crazy enough, and traffic congestion is already insane. Trains seem the only option out of taking the bite out of living 100-200 miles away from work.

Besides that, people will adopt the "field worker" mentality when it comes to housing. Instead of one family buying a house, two combine, perhaps cousins or in-laws or something (as Hispanic field workers already do). Then, they portion the house and lot out into sub-apartments and rent those out in order to afford the dang place (and remember, it was a pile of crap to begin with, thanks to uncaring, profit-driven construction companies). This is not such a far-fetched idea as it sounds. Just the other day on the radio, I heard a mainstream commercial touting the idea of buying a house and renting pieces out to have money. This was not aimed at field workers, but at white middle-class workers in the Bay Area. Yeah, the practice is spreading. Once it does, things can only get worse.

Both problems (living far, and the housing crowding) lead to the same scenario. Can it get to the point that we return to the days of workplaces with housing in them? Will workplaces have little apartments or barracks on the sides or upper floors? Will things return to the 1800-1900s factory style of worker housing? It looks like it just may do that. Some high-paying jobs have workers sleep inside the building. Of course, its unofficial, and "officially not condoned" but it happens. Think of the last time you saw a special on, or read about computer developers. Remember those cots they keep in the corners of their cubicles or lunch rooms? Venture to guess how many more instrustries have this going on? I'd put money on more than video game developers. It could spread. And legally, its not legal. So employers may be forced to build housing to support these fatigued and frazzled workers.

And this leads back to the starting point. With housing becoming part of facilities, will costs for facilities just become way too much? Will it force employers t cut back on facilities and instead rotate a staff of three cycles?

Hmm...
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Rush hours are actually caused more by distance from workplaces than the type of work. You didn't see people leaving to work at 6 in the morning years ago because it was rather uncommon for employees to live 50+ miles away from their workplace
This is partly true. It's also caused by simply more people working as the years go by ('cause obviously the population is rising) and more cars on the road. And people left to work at 6 so they'd be home sooner and do whatever with that extra time in the afternoon (kids/family is probably the biggest thing) or they want to get into the office early to do stuff without being bothered when the "regulars" come in.
 
Top