The Red Mage - T2 Troubles

C

Crackdown

Guest
No doubt about it, the Red Mage just doesn't have it anymore. Yes, there are some nice spells such as Urza's Rage, but the creatures are poor and overcosted, there isn't much enchantment removal unless you have a ton of mana for an Obliterate and artifact removal isn't well targeted.

Just look at Laccoliths. On the surface, they look awesome with uber-first strike capability. WotC thought enough of these beasties to include 4 in Nemesis along with a playful Rig for one red. Yet, in searching decklists and discussion threads on a few sites, almost no mention of these beasts occurs.

What is it about the red creatures in T2 that makes building a deck around them so unpalatable? My casual guess would be lack of speed, lack of power and too high cost with only the Laccoliths having a decent ability. [All casual guesses are suspect.]

For now, splashing red is about the best I can see for the color.

Of course, if someone has a good red creature based T2 deck ... love to see it.
 
C

Cateran Emperor

Guest
[me]whispers "Obliterate doesn't hit enchantments".[/me]

Red has some good creatures still, the problem is they're fairly expensive, (Two Header) temporary, (Skizzik) or gold (Specter, Rith). Red can't get away with expensive monsters like black can because red creatures can be hit with black removal.

Laccoliths are great creatures with a cool ability (I'd venture to say the Titan is NOT overcosted), but few people use them because they're guaranteed to draw immediate fire.

Spell-wise, red is as good as ever, with quality LD (Tectonic Break, Devastate), powerful burn (Rage), and cheap artifact destruction (Salvage). The problem is that every other color is muscling in on red's abilities and taking it away.

Burn still belongs to Red but Black's trying to get in on it (Soul Burn), White and Green both have artifact destruction (Disenchant, Uktabi Orangutan), and Black and Green both have Land destruction (Rain of Tears, Creeping Mold).

I'm getting really sick opf other color's becoming Red. But they seem to want to phase Red into the other colors.
 
C

Crackdown

Guest
Yep, Obliterate doesn't hit enchantments. As my son would say, D'uh. Thanks for the whisper. :)

So, what cards would WotC have to reprint in 7th to make red more viable?

Me chooses Ball Lightning.
 
G

Griffith_se

Guest
Heres one that seems kinda OK, Something to look at anyway.

Creatures:

4 Raging Goblin
4 Laccolith Whelp
4 Mogg Toady
4 Kyren glider
4 Orcish Artillery
2 Battle Squadron

Spells:

4 Seal of Fire
2 Maniacal Rage
1 Latulla's Orders
3 Giant Strength
4 Urza's Rage
2 Flameshot

Lands:

3 Dust Bowl
20 Mountain
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
The trouble is that if red gets good creatures it only needs moderately good burn to be a powerhouse deck. And seeing as people were really whingeing about Sligh dominating for like 4 years or more, red has been given a severe kcking by R&D (same goes for Blue counter decks).

There are very few red creatures worth using, those are:

REALLY GOOD
Rogue Kavu
Skizzik

PLAYABLE
Flowstone Overseer
Skittish Kavu
Lava Runner

GETTING DODGY
Orcish Artillery
Kris Mage

But everybody gets to use Chimeric Idol at 3cc, don`t forget.
 
S

Sammy Dead-O

Guest
"The trouble is that if red gets good creatures it only needs moderately good burn to be a powerhouse deck."

Yep, I agree. I feel your pain to an extent, Crackdown, mainly because I've been most successful when playing monored. However, I think the potential is definitely still there. I'm not sure what monored deck I like best right now, but stuff like Flame Rift is begging to be used if the creatures can come out quickly enough. I think they can. Raging Goblin is underrated. Giant Strength and Maniacal Rage aren't used enough. There's potential there; it just needs to be tuned.
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
Type Two-Bad-So-Sad

4x Seal of Fire
4x Shock
4x Urza's Rage
2x Rhystic Lightning
2x Flame Rift
2x Blaze

4x Raging Goblin
3x Goblin Elite Infantry
3x Mogg Toady
4x Balduvian Barbarians
3x Chimeric Idol
3x Kavu Aggressor
2x Balduvian Hordes

18x Mountain
2x Dwarven Hold

SB:
3x Distorting Lens (against Rebels and Story Circle)
3x Kris Mage (against Fires, Rebels)
3x Fire Diamond (against whatever-Geddon)
3x Goblin Warrens
3x ?

Now, some explanation.

SoF, Shock, Rage - Duh.
Rhystic Lightning - If played at the right time, 4 damage for 3.
Flame Rift - Deal 20 damage as fast as possible.
Blaze - Late-game kill spell.

Raging Goblin - Fast 1-cc drop
Goblin Elite Infantry - 2 for 2/2, and with all that burn, your opponent won't have creatures
Mogg Toady - See above
Balduvian Barbarians - 3 for 3/2
Chimeric Idol - Duh.
Kavu Aggressor - 3 for 3/2 with no real drawback; just don't kicker it unless you're *severely* bored
Balduvian Horde - Rounds out the mana curve, nice an' fat

Dwarven Hold - Nice to be able to pay 3 on turn 2 in an emergency
Mountain - Ah-duh.

Distorting Lens - Add in with Kris Mage to nuke Thermals, gets around Story Circle
Kris Mage - Eats Fires' mana creatures with some fava beans, also pings for a kill if necessary
Fire Diamond - Works around Geddon if you can't outrace it
Goblin Warrens - Game dragging on? Raging Goblins, Elite, Toadies doing nothing for you? Start churning out mass numbers of 1/1 critters!
? - A little help, here? This deck will never cast Obliterate, Earthquake is like suicide...
 
C

Cateran Emperor

Guest
Ah, Chimeric Idol. God bless that turtlish looking artifact.

It's really sad what's happening to blue too (I can't even get satisfaction from seeing that evil color screwed)

The nature of Red is what made it so good for so long. Burn spells are the second most useful type of spell in the game (right after those irritating counters); they supplement the primary win condition in Magic. Red tends to have fast creatures to further develop that angle of red. Control red has never had any real options other than blowing up lands, which is a slow enough stretegy that can be costly for Red.

Red's removal isn't the one-hit-kill type of spell Black uses. Red trades versatility for the instant creature whackability. The result is a type of removal you can aim at your opponent, something which you end up having to do. This leads to a more aggressive style for red because it's burn is rarely powerful enough to kill powerful threats later on unless you use it in multiples.

Just like the burn, red's creatures have degenerated into swift weenies, leaving red with few true monsters that can hold their own in the late game. It's now basically down to Shivan Sr. and the Overseer to carry the day past turn 5 or 6. Everything else tends to run out of steam.

This lack of powerful, big creatures leaves red with only two real possibilities right now: Land Destruction or splashing into another color for its excellent gold cards. Red weenie isn't impossible, but don't expect the cutthroat style of Deadguy from the past. Few creatures are at that level any more, and there are not many instant speed burn spells that do more than 2 damage for a reasonable cost.
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
What, no comments on my mono-red T2 deck? Nobody telling me that my idea sucks?

CE - There are other red bad-boys. Callous Giant can get *severely* irritating (trust me, I used to use his brother from Visions in my LD deck), and the new Tahngarth could get pretty nasty as a finisher. Also, forgetting about Balduvian Horde is a Bad Thing.

Oh, and if you want mass-removal for fatties...that's why Ghod made Earthquake and the much-maligned Rupture.
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
Red Deck Invades
('refusing to lie down and die' Remix)

4 Rogue Kavu
4 Lava Runner
3 Saproling Burst

4 Assault/Battery

4 Seal Of Fire
4 Shock
2 Scorching Lava
3 Hammer Of Bogardan
3 Rhystic Lightning
2 Urza`s Rage
2 Mage`s Contest
2 Cave-In

4 Rishadan Port
1 Forest
2 Shivan Oasis
4 Karplusan Forest
12 Mountain

SB:
4 Earthquake
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Mage`s Contest
2 Jokulhaups
3 Boil
3 Tranquility

This deck`s actually pretty good, but obviously falls over to Chill and big green monsters. Not a good place to start from in a field of U/W and Fires, then. But it beats everything else, and has enough Green to beat a deck that uses Chill if it draws well, and Fires is beatable if they draw poorly as you can destroy their mana.
 
S

superguy

Guest
I don't really think that there is a playable red sligh-like deck, which is most of you tried to show, and the reason is Fires. It just kills any sligh deck. I think that red Brawler/LD is a very playable deck, with a good mana curve and a way to stop most if not all decks.
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
LD? Maybe. But I think Brawlers suck hard.

Red Deck Breaks

4 Rogue Kavu
4 Lava Runner
2 Saproling Burst

4 Assault And Battery

4 Seal of Fire
4 Rhystic Lightning
3 Hammer Of Bogardan
3 Urza`s Rage
2 Cave-In

4 Pillage
3 Tectonic Break

4 Rishadan Port
1 Forest
2 Shivan Oasis
4 Karplusan Forest
12 Mountain
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
Ive got to give credit to Superguy - he`s probably right about you needing to LD as well as kill monsters. You`ll beat Fires so long as you can keep Burst off the table, after all. I`m now testing this version, not quite so LD as all that, but still quite heavy and the Breaks are key.
I wouldn`t go near Stone Rain n this deck, the only LD I`m running is either bombastically effective on it`s own (Tec Break) or good against stuff like Idols (Pillage). This is the deck I`m currently running on Apprentice when I get the chance.

4 Rogue Kavu
4 Lava Runner
3 Saproling Burst

4 Pillage
3 Tectonic Break

4 Seal Of Fire
3 Shock
4 Assault/Battery
3 Hammer Of Bogardan
3 Rhystic Lightning
2 Urza`s Rage

2 Shivan Oasis
4 Karplusan Forest
4 Rishadan Port
13 Mountain

SB
4 Earthquake
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Boil
3 Mage`s Contest
3 Tranquility
1 Saproling Burst
 
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