The CPA Expansion Project, Step 3.02--Brainstorming Redux

[Notepad]

Okay, looks like everyone just kind of stopped posting on the brainstorming. Maybe it shoulda been done differently. We needed a psycho with a marker and eisel in the front of a room of people who've just drank too much coffee and cola. Failing that...may as well have a question sheet.

But, before getting to the questions, here is the current team:
DÛke, Istanbul, Notepad, Oversoul, TheCasualOblivion

Design: (everyone who wants to)
Storyline: DÛke and Notepad
Flavor text: DÛke and Istanbul (Notepad on backup)
Development: Istanbul (Notepad on backup)
Playtesting: Oversoul

Awaiting a "hey, come on over" welcome...
Art: Limited would like to do this part.
Flavor Text: DarthFerret would like to help here.

===============

Okay, now please say whether or not you'd like these guys on. Would be cool to have someone to do the art for the project. Oh, and more people on flavor text couldn't hurt, either.

Now, since volunteering ideas might have been too...bleh... (no marker-brandishing psycho to scream at you as you jitter with hyper-caffination) why not just answer the questions below about the project? It'll let the whole team know how everyone thinks and help us all get an idea of where the concensus is on what to do with each aspect of the project.

Alrighty.

1) How large of a set would you like to see?
2) Would you like to see set mechanics/themes? If so, how abundant should those cards be?
3) Should the set be primarily for constructed, limited, or mixed?
4) How many reprints would you like to see?
5) Should this set truly stand alone, or would you like to see an effort for interaction with WotC sets?
6) Should there be humorous flavor text? If so, how much?
7) Should there be an overhead storyline such as the Weatherlight Saga, or loose-fitting storyline such as Alpha and Legends?
8) Should the flavor text reflect storyline? If so, how often?
9) Should the color wheel's boundaries be followed at all times? If not, where should the rules be broken?
10) Do you want to see roles of the color wheel shifted? If so, what do you want to see changed?
11) How strong should color interactions be?
12) Should there be hoser cards for specific colors and/or strategies?
13) What should the era setting of the storyline be? Magi-medieval (as WotC's is), techno, future, stone age, etc?
14) What should the culture setting of the storyline be? (Even though many have been world-view sets, most of WotC's stuff has been very European in nature.) Would you like to see Native American Tribal? Old West? More Japanese? More Euro? etc?
15) What specie(s) would you like to see as the dominant form of life both in story and on cards? (Obviously, humans have always dominated WotC's stuff.)
16) What secondary species should there be in the story and cards? (WotC has almost always fallen back on Goblins and Elves for this role.)
17) What legendary super species should there be in the story and cards? (Dragons, Angels and Demons are WotC's usual fare, but with CHK they have been using Spirits for both this and previous question, strangely enough.)
18) What kind of a timeline would you like to see on this project? Do you think a year is too long? Too short? About right?
19) How many cards that push the limits of the game should there be, if any?
20) Should there be a few "casual only" cards that border between normal sets and Unhinged? (Things like Frazzled Editor with Protection from Wordy come to mind.) If so, how many cards like this should be in the set?
21) How many top-down (theme driven rather than mechanic driven) designed cards would you like to see?
22) Should we make this set with the hopes we'll make another? (As in, leave room for expansion of ideas, such as WotC does with blocks.)

 

[Istanbul]

Wow. Question much?

Well, here are my thoughts.

1) Let's start with a 150-card set.
2) I'm not worried about mechanics or themes. I can spot a broken mechanic a mile away (cringed at Affinity when I first saw the beginnings of the Mirrodin spoiler), so I can help balance us out if we do use one...and if not, that's cool too.
3) Both. A set should be created in such a way that you can use the cards in decks without totally embarassing yourself, but so that you could draft it without it coming down to "Whoever gets these commons auto-wins".
4) None. If it's our set, let's make it OUR set.
5) Let's have it stand alone. Assume that WotC would never touch our set (and, as a result, we'd never be allowed to touch theirs).
6) Sure! Humorous flavor text has as much place in Magic as serious flavor text. Just don't overdo it - maybe 20-30%.
7) Loose-fitting, definitely. Let's not pin ourselves down to any particular path just yet.
8) I guess. Not too much, though. The flavor text from Alpha and such offered occasional glimpses into Dominaria without spelling it out - I liked that.
9) I have no idea what this means.
10) No. Things are pretty good the way they are now.
11) Slightly strong, but not very. Sedge Troll - sure. Invasion - too much.
12) In very, very, VERY limited quantities.
13) Magi-medieval, all the way. I'm so sick of steampunk/techno crap, I could hurl.
14) Let's keep it Euro for now. Baby steps, folks.
15) Let's keep the humies around for now, but we needn't be shy about introducing other races...though the nature of those races should bear some discussion.
16) As above.
17) Again, as above.
18) It'll take as long as it takes. Don't rush it, don't delay it.
19) A few. Remember, you can only push limits so much ("I win" cards, anyone?) before it's not special anymore.
20) Nah. Let's keep these as "cards WotC won't print, but COULD if they wanted to".
21) I'm not sure what you mean.
22) Let's balance it so that if we don't, it's fine as it is...but we don't cut ourselves out of the picture.

 

[Notepad]

Made corrections to the questions that weren't clear. Sorry about that. :-/

Also, made corrections to the team. Can't believe I copied the older list and left it. Sorry, TCO! :-/ (again with the face)

1) How large of a set would you like to see?
Don't really care on this one. Small or large set, its cool with me.

2) Would you like to see set mechanics/themes? If so, how abundant should those cards be?
Personally, I'd prefer each card has its own mechanic, with very few cycles, even.

3) Should the set be primarily for constructed, limited, or mixed?
Mixed. Would be fun to playtest drafts with this set if I get the chance.

4) How many reprints would you like to see?
As few as possible. If there's needed staples, it'd be fun to see interesting tweaks on oldies that don't necessarily mean just slapping a higher mana cost and a mechanic on the thing.

5) Should this set truly stand alone, or would you like to see an effort for interaction with WotC sets?
Would be awesome to see a truly stand alone set, that also manages to mix with your normal decks.

6) Should there be humorous flavor text? If so, how much?
Yeah, sure. But for the love of Garfield, I hope nobody comes up with another "He's got the right to bear arms" *yuck* And only a tab of humor, for the funnier cards.

7) Should there be an overhead storyline such as the Weatherlight Saga, or loose-fitting storyline such as Alpha and Legends?
I'm all for loose-fitting story. Alpha-era all the way.

8) Should the flavor text reflect storyline? If so, how often?
Tidbits here and there only if needed. Otherwise, hopefully we can make it descriptive or otherwise fitting to each card.

9) Should there be a dominating color wheel?
Yeah, we need a color wheel. But, it would be fun to see smudging of the known boundaries where it is possible.

10) Do you want to see roles of the color wheel shifted? If so, what do you want to see changed?
Other than trying to blur a boundary here or there, I'm fine with sticking with WotC's version.

11) How strong should color interactions be?
Sedge Troll Isty? What, no Kird Apes? Heh. Yeah stuff like Sedge Troll and such were fun. Hopefully a gold card here or there. Hopefully, also cards that include off-color play, but at a penalty (Electric Eel comes to mind, though I know we could make something much more...playable)

12) Should there be hoser cards for specific colors and/or strategies?
I've always hated silver bullets. However, I think they are needed here and there to control major stuff. We should try to find ways to make any we include useful out of their intended purpose, though. Gloom is useless against a mirror. Stuff like Engineered Plague, on the other hand, is anti-weenie anti-tribal, but it can be a slight bit useful even against a fattie deck.

13) What should the era setting of the storyline be? Magi-medieval (as WotC's is), techno, future, stone age, etc?
Magi-medieval is most comfortable. Though, I think it'd be cool to see Greek or Roman-era timelines. Lesser tech, more interaction mythologically with magic, etc. Might be neat. And, its close enough to Medieval to not be out of whack with comfort.

14) What should the culture setting of the storyline be? (Even though many have been world-view sets, most of WotC's stuff has been very European in nature.) Would you like to see Native American Tribal? Old West? More Japanese? More Euro? etc?
Japanese. Anime. Anime. ANIME. sorry! That before this sentence was a joke. Honestly! What I'd really like to see is some sort of Native American tribal, but that's just so outright obscure, we may as well go Euro-trippin'. Though, would be cool to shift away from Northwest Europe to take a vacation to South and Southeast, to Rome and Greece, perhaps.

15) What specie(s) would you like to see as the dominant form of life both in story and on cards? (Obviously, humans have always dominated WotC's stuff.)
Borg. Borg. BORG. Just kidding! Humans. Easily most comforting. Hard to really explore settings without that common anchor.

16) What secondary species should there be in the story and cards? (WotC has almost always fallen back on Goblins and Elves for this role.)
You know, it would be nice to throw common backup races out the window. We have too many goblins and elves and merfolk and whatnot. I'd like to see something like Odyssey did with backup critters, and take some often ignored stuff and put it in the spotlight a bit. Centaurs, Dwarves, Faeries, Skeletons, etc. Not the exact mix that Odyssey used, but something we know and could be comfortable with, just not "Yet Another Goblin/Mogg/Akki" ya know?

17) What legendary super species should there be in the story and cards? (Dragons, Angels and Demons are WotC's usual fare, but with CHK they have been using Spirits for both this and previous question, strangely enough.)
All for dragons. Though, wouldn't it be cool if something other than demons were ultimate evil and angels ultimate good? What if dragons were ultimate divinity/good, and something like vampires were the ultimate undead/evil. Or giants/titans, even? Oh, and not typical stuff. Like maybe entirely new takes on these super beings. Such as how Kamigawa totally revisited dragons in an awesome new way. We're certainly capable of taking something recognizable as superpowered, keeping it recognizable as superpowered, but giving its card effects a huge revamp.

18) What kind of a timeline would you like to see on this project? Do you think a year is too long? Too short? About right?
I'm guessing this will take anywhere from 6-12 months to complete. Best not to get expectations that this will be a super fast project. Development is definitely gonna take some time.

19) How many cards that push the limits of the game should there be, if any?
A few. But man, so hard to do this without making something that falls totally flat, or worse, breaks the game wide open.

20) Should there be a few "casual only" cards that border between normal sets and Unhinged? (Things like Frazzled Editor with Protection from Wordy come to mind.) If so, how many cards like this should be in the set?
It would be cool if we came up with some neat zany ideas. Maybe not as self-aware as "Pro Wordy" but something that borderlines on Unhinged ground. Hell, WotC has done this. Upwelling was such a card at one time.

21) How many top-down designed cards would you like to see?
As many as possible.

22) Should we make this set with the hopes we'll make another? (As in, leave room for expansion of ideas, such as WotC does with blocks.)
Borg Anime! just kidding! It would be neat to be able to come back and expand on stuff, but we defnitely shouldn't hold back ideas just to purposely leave them for a later set.

 

[Captain Caveman]

1) How large of a set would you like to see?

I think you need to do a block. Build it all at once and release it just
like they do a Wizards. I think it should be three phases. 350 card base,
150 card expansion and another 150 card expansion. We could draft it this
way and also have a CPA block tournament. It might even draw people to the
CPA. Are there Copy right laws to consider? Are we even allowed to use
the basic concept of a magic card?



2) Would you like to see set mechanics/themes? If so, how abundant should those cards be?

I'd really like to see some cards that have a Multi-player theme. I'm talking
about cards that are ok for one on one play but become stronger when there are
three or more players in the game. An example of such a card is Kokusho. I'd like
to see three cards in each base color and 1 card from each of the allied and
non-allied colors. Of course, the gold cards are only possible if you do gold.
You could spread them out over the three sets. Something like; 2 of each color in
the base set, 1 of each color and 1 of each allied color in set two and one of
each non-allied color in the last set.


3) Should the set be primarily for constructed, limited, or mixed?

I say mixed for sure.


4) How many reprints would you like to see?

I would say no more than three from each color.


5) Should this set truly stand alone, or would you like to see an effort for interaction with WotC sets?

It needs to interact with other Wizard set.


6) Should there be humorous flavor text? If so, how much?

Silly references would be fine. Even working in a references to the CPA
members would be alright in my opinion. I think at the very least the
team members of this project should a have a card with humorous flavor
text if they/you want it.


7) Should there be an overhead storyline such as the Weatherlight Saga, or loose-fitting storyline such as Alpha and Legends?

A loose-fitting storyline would be the best. That way there would not be a need to
stay within some restricted guidelines. However, some of the characters could have
there own storyline related to each other in some way. I'm not sure how to precede
with this but someone could figure that out. It might be interesting to have the CPA
members fill in the blanks to the character relationship. Maybe some sort of forumn
thread that each CPA member builds on. (community input?)



12) Should there be hoser cards for specific colors and/or strategies?

Not specific hosers but protection from colors would be ok.


13) What should the era setting of the storyline be? Magi-medieval (as WotC's is), techno, future, stone age, etc?

I like Magi-medieval. However, it might be intersting to have powerful Blue and Black
Magi time travel from a future plane to a medieval plane insearch of a domain to
conquer. Of course, the White based techo planeswalkers would be right on there
heals to bring them to justice.


15) What specie(s) would you like to see as the dominant form of life both in story and on cards? (Obviously, humans have always dominated WotC's stuff.)

It reference to the above comments I see humans and Humanoids.


17) What legendary super species should there be in the story and cards? (Dragons, Angels and Demons are WotC's usual fare, but with CHK they have been using Spirits for both this and previous question, strangely enough.)

The Timmy in me wants Dragons, Angels, Demons and Planeswalkers(atleast one of each color)


18) What kind of a timeline would you like to see on this project? Do you think a year is too long? Too short? About right?

It would probably take atleast 6 to 9 month to do the cards and story right then another
3 to 6 months to play-test and refine the mistakes. So a year is probably about right.


19) How many cards that push the limits of the game should there be, if any?

Thats difficult to say. You would want good cards but nothing you have to
ban. I would guess that 2 to 3 cards from each color should push the limits
but play-test them carfully.


20) Should there be a few "casual only" cards that border between normal sets and Unhinged? (Things like Frazzled Editor with Protection from Wordy come to mind.) If so, how many cards like this should be in the set?

I like the idea of casual cards but I don't like the Unhinged type of card. I would like
to see the casual focus on Multi-players cards instead of something totally
crazy or possibily broken in draft.(have no idea about the cards you referenced
though, just making a general statment)


21) How many top-down (theme driven rather than mechanic driven) designed cards would you like to see?

I'd like to see some cards with unique themes that drive creative deck design.
(Wizards Alternative win condition cards would be examples of such cards)

22) Should we make this set with the hopes we'll make another? (As in, leave room for expansion of ideas, such as WotC does with blocks.)

Yes, I'd love to see a CPA block

 

[DÛke]

How large of a set would you like to see?
I think we have enough brains in this thing that we can easily put out a block (1 stand alone, 2 smaller sets). Me...I would dare suggest 2 blocks even, hey, I have a vault of ideas.

Would you like to see set mechanics/themes? If so, how abundant should those cards be?
Not mechanics, but themes - few number of them. I would want to see them often enough so we can develop on them.

Should the set be primarily for constructed, limited, or mixed?
Mixed, but more towards constructed.

How many reprints would you like to see?
None. We're good enough to create and recreate anything we want.

Should this set truly stand alone, or would you like to see an effort for interaction with WotC sets?
Kinda both. I want it to be a stand alone, a step towards a new direction, yet without severing all bonds with actusl sets.

Should there be humorous flavor text? If so, how much?
Yes, but not many, and they would have to be very subtle.

Should there be an overhead storyline such as the Weatherlight Saga, or loose-fitting storyline such as Alpha and Legends?
I perfer and overhead storyline, with missions, directions, characters, heros, bad guys, and everything in between. Not loose by any means. I know many may not like this because it might place constraints on the freedom of card creation, but hey...we're not WotC. Just because we want a deep storyline doesn't mean the cards will be strict and overly thematic to the point of vomitting. But I do want an overhead storyline...

What should the era setting of the storyline be? Magi-medieval (as WotC's is), techno, future, stone age, etc?
Me...I want something actually rather modern, something very modern and current. More emphasis on Human creature types, and also Illusions...the setting is modern day world (but not this world in its exactness)...of course there will be all kind of time travel, to the past as well as to the future. I intend to have a lot of "time" cards in which steps of the turn are skipped or something...a lot of manupilation of the phases and the game rules, but nothing drastic, so worry not.

What legendary super species should there be in the story and cards? (Dragons, Angels and Demons are WotC's usual fare, but with CHK they have been using Spirits for both this and previous question, strangely enough.)
I honestly want to stay away from using a lot of the old species and types. I want to focus on new things and not be bogged down in the past. I want humans, illusions, politicians (modern day wizards, kinda), philosophers, students, scientists, priests, and even invent new ones for our world.

Should we make this set with the hopes we'll make another? (As in, leave room for expansion of ideas, such as WotC does with blocks.)
Yes, I would really like that. A block is fine. I'm already shooting for 2 blocks.

 

[Oversoul]

1) I'm not sure. I think it should be bigger than Arabian Nights.

2) I don't see any need for "mechanics." Every set has some sort of theme and I don't see why ours would not.

3) A good set should work well with both. I think we should keep as many formats in mind as we possibly can.

4) Maybe a few if they go along well with other cards in the set. The number of reprints depends on the size of the set. Unless there is a very good reason to include a reprint, there is no point in having one.

5) I am not sure exactly what you mean here.

6) I think there can be some, but the humor should not be forced.

7) I believe a loose-fitting storyline would work best for this.

8) It should.

9) I don't think any liberties should be taken with the "color wheel." However, I think that in the past the color wheel has often been quite flexible.

10) I don't like it when WotC decides to shift the whole thing (Naturalize).

11) What do you mean, exactly?

12) Of course.

13) No preference.

14) No preference.

15) What counts as "dominant"?

16) What counts as "secondary"?

17) I don't see any of this as a matter of "dominant/secondary/legendary" to begin with.

18) That's a tough question. I think we should analyze this one closely and come to a consensus.

19) That depends on what "pushes the limit."

20) I don't think we should have that stuff.

21) All of them.

22) Yes.

 

[Spiderman]

Are there Copy right laws to consider? Are we even allowed to use the basic concept of a magic card?

I'm part of the Magic Suitcase group and they recently had to drop support of the Magic images and pictures. So I would hazard to say that as long as you don't use the image of a Magic card itself (front or back), you should be okay.

Not sure the "front" would be a problem since you're creating new cards anyway, but just the back, and only if you intend on printing them out.

"Officially" of course.

 

[Notepad]

Okay, is everyone done giving their input into the project? Fine to move on to actually getting the project started by figuring out where are agreements are, and what differences need to be worked out in design?

Anybody have any ideas on how to start that?

 

[Mooseman]

Okay, is everyone done giving their input into the project? Fine to move on to actually getting the project started by figuring out where are agreements are, and what differences need to be worked out in design?

Anybody have any ideas on how to start that?

start with, What new or old mechanics will be included in the set.
Then, creatures and color interactions can be designed off of this.
I would vote for non_affinity type mechanics, too broke.'
Say each color get it's own minor mechanic, AKA, white could have flanking, green has regen and black has pumping......
with one or two overal mechanics.

 

[Captain Caveman]

Okay, is everyone done giving their input into the project? Fine to move on to actually getting the project started by figuring out where are agreements are, and what differences need to be worked out in design?

Anybody have any ideas on how to start that?

Here are some questions that might help us procede.


1. World from which we will build(example: Mirrodin - metal world)

2. Rough draft of storyline
2a. Some character development(nothing specific; names,ect.)

3. Set overall size (complete block or just 1 set?)

4. Are we including draft cards? (yes: "x" number or no we can do
without)

5. Are we including reprints? (yes: "x" number or no we can do
without)

6. Are we including Gold cards? (yes: "x" number or no we can do
without)

7. Casual theme and number of cards;? (un-glued type &/or Multi-player,
ect.)

 

[Oversoul]

My thoughts...

1. There are tons of options for a world to build off. We only need to choose one. Personally, I am unsure on this one. I hope others have more ideas here...

2. I don't know if it's for the best to have a rough draft of the storyline at this point. If others feel I am wrong here, then so be it. There's more than one way to, um, make a Magic set. But I believe that we should wait a while on this one.
2a. Well, in order to have character development, we need characters. I haven't seen any of them posted yet.

3. This is something we really need a consensus on. Most people (myself included) seem to be pretty flexible on this one, but it will matter later on. I think I'll start a thread dealing with this topic...

4. Shouldn't well designed cards work in both contstructed and limited? I would be opposed to designing cards specifically for draft. I would still like the set to draft well, of course...

5. My position on reprints is that two possible positions immediately spring up, and I like neither. Saying we should have "x" amount of reprints cuts into the number of new cards that are being designed here. Also, it means that we might need to find cards to reprint which would not fit so well.

On the other hand, saying that we should deny any possibility of reprints limits the set with little reason. I would prefer not to see functional reprints (cards which are identical to a previous card except for the name and maybe creature type) but would not be vehemently opposed to them.

Now, let's say that while designing our green cards, we notice that Giant Growth fits really well with the rest of the cards. It makes sense artistically to include it and the card tests well too. Then the conclusion would be that we include Giant Growth.

This system isn't flawless. It would probably tend to reject reprints altogether, as everyone will be looking to design new cards of their own rather than include cards someone else made. Also, if someone pushes for a pet card to be reprinted, and it goes through, but other reprints are either not suggested or are rejected, then the set probably looks awkward with only one reprint in the whole thing...

6. I see no reason to exclude gold cards. But why do we need a number? We don't even have a number of cards in the set so far...

7. I think making this Unglued would be a mistake. If we wanted to do that, it should have been decided from the beginning. What do you mean by multiplayer cards? Do you mean cards like Syphon Soul, or cards like Organ Harvest? The first sounds like it could work well enough. I'm not too keen on the latter, but I could be persuaded to change my mind...

 

[Captain Caveman]

My thoughts...

2. I don't know if it's for the best to have a rough draft of the storyline at this point. If others feel I am wrong here, then so be it. There's more than one way to, um, make a Magic set. But I believe that we should wait a while on this one.
2a. Well, in order to have character development, we need characters. I haven't seen any of them posted yet.


I'm not suggesting that a storyline be developed to the point where it makes
the cards for use but, in my opinion, having some type of foundation would
be helpful. Having character development may not be important at this point
I just thought it might be helpful to have 5 character outlines(one for each
color, legends in my opinion)


3. This is something we really need a consensus on. Most people (myself included) seem to be pretty flexible on this one, but it will matter later on. I think I'll start a thread dealing with this topic...


4. Shouldn't well designed cards work in both contstructed and limited? I would be opposed to designing cards specifically for draft. I would still like the set to draft well, of course...


Your probably right. I don't draft much so I don't know much about it,.. really.


5. My position on reprints is that two possible positions immediately spring up, and I like neither. Saying we should have "x" amount of reprints cuts into the number of new cards that are being designed here. Also, it means that we might need to find cards to reprint which would not fit so well.

I think someone needs to post a reprint thread and have a yes or no vote on
the topic so this question can have some finality(sp)


6. I see no reason to exclude gold cards. But why do we need a number? We don't even have a number of cards in the set so far...

The reason for the number question is to see whether you are going a set like
Invasion or Mirage.


7. I think making this Unglued would be a mistake. If we wanted to do that, it should have been decided from the beginning. What do you mean by multiplayer cards? Do you mean cards like Syphon Soul, or cards like Organ Harvest? The first sounds like it could work well enough. I'm not too keen on the latter, but I could be persuaded to change my mind...

I'm not a big fan of unglued so I think our casual set should focus on a
Multi-player theme. Cards like Syphon Soul and Kokusho come to mind
when I think of MP cards that are playable in one on one games but really
shine in larger games like 2HG and Choas. I think kokusho is a perfect
example of the type of card I'll like to see in our set. I'm not suggesting
that a MP theme carry the whole set but I'd like to see 10 to 15 cards
in each set("C"P"A") use the MP theme.

 

[Mooseman]

I'm not a big fan of unglued so I think our casual set should focus on a
Multi-player theme. Cards like Syphon Soul and Kokusho come to mind
when I think of MP cards that are playable in one on one games but really
shine in larger games like 2HG and Choas. I think kokusho is a perfect
example of the type of card I'll like to see in our set. I'm not suggesting
that a MP theme carry the whole set but I'd like to see 10 to 15 cards
in each set("C"P"A") use the MP theme.

Yes, unglued is not the best of directions to go.
Some cards that really work in multi-player would be great.

Which comes first, stroyline or mechanics/interactions?

Writing a storyline might be easier after some basic designs are in place and it can proceed along with the evolution of the set(s).