Something that bothers me...

[Baskil]

Exactly. To add to that point, most people connect us with our leader. If the leader is spouting scripture, well, people start assuming the whole country is too.

Of course, as long as it isn't anything like the conversation between Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell two nights ago, it's mostly harmless.



JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters - the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats - what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact - if, in fact - God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population.

JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, yes.

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.

JERRY FALWELL: Pat, did you notice yesterday the ACLU, and all the Christ-haters, People For the American Way, NOW, etc. were totally disregarded by the Democrats and the Republicans in both houses of Congress as they went out on the steps and called out on to God in prayer and sang "God Bless America" and said "let the ACLU be hanged"? In other words, when the nation is on its knees, the only normal and natural and spiritual thing to do is what we ought to be doing all the time - calling upon God.

PAT ROBERTSON: Amen


And then they had the gall to say they were taken out of context. Shame on them.

 

[theorgg]

15% is the amount of people in this country that does not believe in some form of diety.

How many people are active in this forum? about 80? How many are complaining? six?

In all honesty, the man is grieving for how this will look on the pages of history, and how he's going to deal with it.

If his War on Terrorism falls through, he'll look worse than Hoover does. If not, he may be a heroic figure like Kennedy.

I believe that the rights of the individual extend to the president as well. I believe that Clinton's affair was his, his wife's, and "that woman"'s buisness. If Bush believes in God, allow him to express it-- Least you be repressed for disbelieving more than you (to an extent) are.

As with the Wingtip Fundimentalists... Well, they've their right(no pun intended), but who listens to them but the weak of mind? As I believe Ferret(from the old days) said in one of his articles he wrote after leaving the CPA and becoming Pagan: "Find Your OWN Truth." That summarizes that thought right there...


(for the record, I believe strongly in God, however, I do not follow exactly as the bible says... It's multituded of translations have worn the edge off of the words present, but it's intent I do follow.)

 

[Ura]

Baskil:

Of course, as long as it isn't anything like the conversation between Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell two nights ago, it's mostly harmless.

Exactly my point thats its mostly harmless. What those other two said I found to be totally offensive even if it is their right to believe it and say it. It reminds me far to much of another strand of nazism.

Orgg:

It's multituded of translations have worn the edge off of the words present, but it's intent I do follow.)

I believe its Worship that says:

"Believe in the ideal, not the idol."
-Serra

 

[Zadok001]

There are only a few groups of people in this world I could live without. One of those groups is the Christian Coalition. I don't mean that as any insult to anyone associated with them, most of the people from that group are wonderful, friendly people. One of closet friends is a very devout Christian.

But, and excuse my anger, DAMN. To blame the acts of these terrorists on gays, feminists, and everyone who isn't a Christian is, to me, no worse than to have struck this blow yourself. They DARE to blame this disaster on a large percentage of the people who are currently in mourning over it? They DARE to say that this is the fault of those who do not directly agree with them? They DARE to strike out at an enormous number of non-Christian organizations with blame after the loss of over 5000 lives? This is a time to MOURN, not lay blame. And if we must lay blame, then lay blame on those responsible. NOT those in mourning.

Again, I apologize. I have a deep-running dislike for that group, and this just drives the knife a little deeper. I mean no disrespect. In fact, you can probably just ignore this entire post, as it is made without ANY thought for logical understanding. It is born of pure anger.

I stand for justice, not for vengeance.

 

[Apollo]

Geez, I hadn't heard of that conversation... that's awful. I pretty much echo everything Zadok said there...

This isn't as bad, but today on Fox, they had footage of a funeral for one of the victims, with a minister praying. On the bottom of the screen, a huge headline proclaimed "America United." While probably unintentinal, I don't like that...

 

[MrXarvox]

Those two scumbags spouting off their hate should be removed...
I cannot stand right wing fundamentalists!!!!!

Just wanted to vent that.

 

[Spiderman]

I view those two guys as fundamentalists in their own right and not the majority of views taken by most Christians.

In fact, the majority of preachers have called for a non-violence response to the terrorist act (or so some news article said in the Baltimore Sun, I think).

My preacher yesterday tried to explain that viewpoint.

As for the president using "pray", as theorgg said, nearly 75% or 80% believe in some deity (I've heard that poll too). Therefore the president is following what the majority of people would like to hear, and personally, the usage of "pray" is not that big of a deal.

As an aside, I would think Clinton's "affair" would be his own business if he conducted it off of "public property".

 

[Chaos Turtle]

On separation of church and state.

This philosophical and political idea seems to be misunderstood by a lot of people. The only guarantee our Constitution gives us in this regard is that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."

In no way does this preclude a government official's stating his or her own beliefs, or from using language which makes his own beliefs clear. If the President had said, "Go to you local church right now, and ask God for His Divine Mercy on the souls of those who died, blah blah blah..." then I can see where there might be a problem.

...

On the Falwell-Robertson conversation.

These imbeciles are always spouting some baloney. If only everyone realized what simpleminded religious fundamentalists these guys are, the nation would be a happier place. The Christian Coalition itself seeks to undermine the Bill of Rights with its political lobbying power.

(Thank god for the ACLU.)

Nevertheless, they have a right to spew whatever manner of stupidity they like. It's a free country.

Lest anyone get the impression that I have a prblem with Christians in general, be assured that this is not the case. I was once a devout Baptist myself, before converting to Mormonism, follwed by a sudden swing into atheism, before I finally came to my senses. My religious preference (like most of my preferences) is, "I don't have one." I have great respect for anyone who lives by religious ideals without trying to force them on others, and -- like Zadok -- I have devoutly religious friends too.

...

I myself do not share the President's beliefs (on a good many issues) but I think that it really is being hypersensitive to get bent out of shape over his comments. In my opinion, in light of last week's terrorist attack, it's wrongheaded to be nitpicky over what amounts to little more than a questionable choice of words.

As an aside, I'm delighted to see Baskil's posting again. Or has he been posting all along, and I've just missed it?

 

[Spiderman]

It's the latter.

 

[DÛke]

...yes, some came to share their thoughts.

Some left. Purple_Jester left...again. Sadly.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

Originally posted by Spiderman
It's the latter.

Ah, I thought that might be the case. I haven't noticed much from him, but then again I've not been around much either.

Fear not...the hour of my full-time return draws near...

 

[Baskil]

You could say that I'm back

I got disgusted of other boards (I'm not really playing Magic anymore, mostly MMORPGs) and came here because I know you guys better

On to the matter:

Spiderman said:

"As for the president using "pray", as theorgg said, nearly 75% or 80% believe in some deity (I've heard that poll too). Therefore the president is following what the majority of people would like to hear, and personally, the usage of "pray" is not that big of a deal. "

No, it's not really that big of a deal. Using pray or prayer isn't offensive. But it still irks me. It irks me the same way that Christmas being a national holiday (and days like Rashashana(sp) or other religious holidays aren't) irks me. But I guess since majority rules in those situations...

CT said:
"Nevertheless, they have a right to spew whatever manner of stupidity they like. It's a free country. "

So true. But they shouldn't get away with saying it. Using the same rights that they invoked, we should deride them for their misguided views.

You were a Mormon? After birth? Wow. Did you leave when you heard the redconning of established history?

 

[Spiderman]

Concerning the holidays, I agree and as you probably know it was only because our country was founded by predominantly Christians is because Christmas and Easter are national holidays. However, the awareness of other cultures and religions might bring others into the national holiday status in the future (already employers are felxible about giving time off for that sort of stuff). It's kind of like having the first black president; I think public awareness has shifted such that it can happen, but realistically it will take a few more years.

And true about our own religious fundamentalists.

 

[Spiderman]

There was a small article in today's Baltimore Sun that Falwell has apologized for his remarks, saying they were "ill-timed, insensitive, and inappropriate".

 

[Zadok001]

(Slightly off-topic)

CT said:

"(Thank god for the ACLU.)"

I haven't laughed that much in quite a while... Thanks, CT...

 

[FoundationOfRancor]

Im at school, dont have alot of time, and I just browsed over the comments.

The president saying "Pray" doesent anger me as much as him quoting the bible in his speech. But, even the word Pray is arguable (Im not going to because alot of independent religions include "Praying")

So...yeah.

 

[Spiderman]

Yesterday's Washington Post had a little article how people are finding faith again or at least turning to prayer.

Oh God, are you There?

 

[linsivvi]

Do you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you GOD!
While your hand is on a bible.
And when a non-relgious or no-christian person walks up to take the stand what is he supposed to do? Swear on a bible he doesn't belive in!
I belive that "freedom of relgion" in which this country was founded should include freedom to not practice it.
I see what Bush is doing. a large % of the country belives in a god of some sort or another. he won't make any friends by siding with the minority. but that doesn't make it right.
He wasn't saying pray to any god you belive in. he was quoting Psalms. in other words, he is talking to all the christians and jews. thats it. because last i checked athiests, muslims, wiccans, satan worishpers, hindus, buddists and the rest of the crowd don't belive in the bible. (correct me if i am wrong).
I am very with Chaos Turtle in the sense that I was once christian but finally they started pissing me off with the seclusivness of it. Believe it or Burn was Jesus's message in a nutshell and that made me a little mad. I find religions interesting, but i dislike anyone or religion that will try to impose its belives on anyone.
Well thats my schpleel. (Which i might add will probably suprise you FoR)

 

[theorgg]

Guess what the first two sections of the Koran(Quiran) are, Sivvi?

We call them the Old Testament and the New Testament.

They're in Arabic, of course, though...

 

[Chaos Turtle]

linsivvi sez:
Believe it or Burn was Jesus's message in a nutshell and that made me a little mad.

Actually, if you'll forgive me for waxing pious for a moment, that wasn't Jesus' message at all. To quote: "As I have loved you, love one another." That is the message, in a nutshell.

The fact that you rarely find a Christian who practices that message is the primary reason I don't affiliate myself with them anymore.

Also, you might like to know that you are not required to swear on the Bible in court. You can inform the court that doing so violates your religious beliefs and you will be allowed to "affirm" or "promise" to tell the truth. Whether you lay your hand on the Bible or not, you are still obligated to be truthful and forthcoming while under oath.

Baskil queries:
You were a Mormon? After birth? Wow. Did you leave when you heard the redconning of established history?

I'm not familiar with the word, "redconning," but I think I get the gist of what you're asking.

Actually, no. It was just the hypocrisy. When our church bishop (and town Sheriff) was discovered to have been molesting his granddaughters for several years, I was shocked and betrayed. When the church failed to excommunicate him, I had had quite enough, particularly considering that another member had been excommunicated not too long prior for the (apparently much worse) transgression of getting pregnant without having been married to the father.

As for revision-of-history, I think we can agree that institutions throughout civilization (both religious and secular) are known to have done so. I've no doubt that "Church History" and "established history" diverge on a great many points.

At any rate, I just can't participate actively in any group where hypocrisy is the order of the day, and whose literalist interpretations of Scripture ignore the basic scientific principles of evolution, physics, and archeology (to name but a few).

...

I don't have a problem with the president quoting Psalms, by the way. I don't consider them "holy scripture" anyway, but rather a collection of hymns of praise written over a period of about one thousand years, which of course is what they are. The 23rd Psalm is one of my (and many others') personal favorites.