Sligh Of The Times

[Gizmo]

What a crock of oink.

Build a deck that ignores the principles of every Sligh deck ever, throw in cards that are the antithesis of Sligh strategy (Howling Mine) and THEN call it a Sligh deck. Sligh was a deck that set out to maximise it's effectiveness by using cards that would pan out with the mana it drew. Howling Mine is what you play when you utterly ignore that strategy and just want to draw more cards. It's not the same thing, it's not even slightly similar - you'll rapidly end up with an excess of land and nothing to do with it because all your spells cost 1/2cc at most - unless you see your Scroll and keep it in play you're going to wind up with 3/4 mana sitting there every turn that you can't use, there's not even any Ghitu Encampments to suck up unwanted red mana.

Yeah, if you want to redefine what a Sligh deck is (which you try and do in your opening waffle) then it is a Sligh deck - hell why stop there, it's a ProsperBloom deck as well because that was all about drawing cards and turning them into direct damage. And besides that the deck you end up with doesn't even match the opening waffle you set out to create.

Your deck may be good (it isnt but I guess lots of red burn is always going to win some games), but it isn't Sligh.

 

[Istanbul]

Wow, you know what's really oink?

Is some egotistical little punk who thinks that he knows everything about everything and doesn't have any time to contribute, and can only trash things he isn't intelligent enough to understand.

Wherever you've been hiding, Gizmo, why don't you just go on back there? We don't need your attitude here.

You could've been a contender, but you crapped out. You keep that in mind.

 

[Oversoul]

At this point, I have become convinced: Gizmo really believes all of the hilarious drivel he posts here. And sadly enough, it is quite possible that others will believe it as well.

I was never really satisfied with my last incarnation of the good creatures list. I would probably make some small revisions if I were to return to the project. Gizmo originally argued against my inclusion of Initiates of the Ebon Hand in the black list (which was cut anyway as it is not top 25 material for black, but he seemed to think it was totally useless) and was also vehemently opposed to my exclusion of Arc Slogger in the red. This didn't seem to unreasonable, but I disagreed and briefly explained how. His retort was a flame. He did eventually rebut my explanation and I didn't really have a chance to answer that as the thread was locked (I do not disagree at all with TomB's locking the thread although I wished at the time that I had been given some time to respond).

What happened next was just beautiful. I had posted a new thread with more refined lists and was still taking suggestions. Gizmo posted twice with lists of cuts and additions that were ridiculous. I won't bother posting them all here (they can still be found in that thread) but I will highlight some of my favorites...

For white...

Cut: Akroma, Angel of Wrath

Add: Icatian Javelineer

For blue...

Cut: Palinchron

Add: Giant Oyster (yes, fear the Oyster!)

For black...

Cut: Nether Spirit

Add: Shadow Guildmage

For red...

Cut: Anger, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Recruiter, GOBLIN WELDER, and Worldgorger Dragon!

Add: Wildfire Emissary

And he is trying to argue about a red deck...

For green...

Cut: Eternal Witness

Add: Scragnoth (well, it is uncounterable)

For artifact...

Cut: Metalworker

Add: Brass Man

At the time I thought he was trying to make some sort of elaborate joke (in poor taste, but taste nonetheless). I asked him to stop spamming. Anyway, I was going to just let all of that die.

But now he has started a thread in order to attack an article posted by a respected CPA member. The article is about a red deck (the color in which Gizmo has demonstrated his ineptitude in enough already).

And what is the issue? The definition of sligh? Sligh is such an umbrella archetype. The word doesn't even mean anything. It comes from a man's last name. It has appeared in several formats. There have been many variants of it over the years. In the current Legacy metagame alone there are at least three distinct sligh archetypes which are competitive.

There isn't really any universal authority on the exact qualifications for a deck to be "sligh."

Istanbul's take on sligh is likely to have some differences from those of other CPA'ers. I am sure that my own take would have been different (I am no Howling Mine fan). Perhaps the deck could be improved. Perhaps there is some clearly superior sligh variant in the same budget range. I might have tried to explore that, but Gizmo's little tirade has pushed my regard of Istanbul's article and deck possibly higher than that of Istanbul himself.

The article is an accurate representation of the "sligh of the times." It is not some sort of homage to the original sligh lists, nor is it the deck of Gizmo's warped delusions--with Ghitu Encampments to suck up unwanted mana and all that nonsense...

 

[Istanbul]

What you have to understand is that Gizmo doesn't have a point. He doesn't HAVE to. He's not here to make valid, intelligent arguments that have some kind of basis behind them. He's a troll in the classic sense; he comes to these boards to start fights, makes himself feel big, then crawls back under his rock for a while. He's like herpes; you know he'll never go away for good, but you really wish he would.

Heck, I doubt he even read my article. If he did, he would notice that I posted that the current version of sligh is DIFFERENT from the classic version, the original version that got played so long ago. And in a sense, he's right; the original version of Sligh was as he described it, all about mana curves and maximizing your resources each turn. But the fact is that that's not what Sligh is anymore, largely because that's not what most people acknowledge as Sligh. I've been playing the deck for ages, and when you ask the average Magic player what Sligh is, he's not going to describe Gizmo's idea of it, he's going to describe mine.

The guy pays G to regenerate himself.

 

[jorael]

The big question: will sligh return in Kamigawa block? Or type 2 (spark elemental!)

Wizards carefully designs highly effective damage dealers (lava spike). They are balanced by a loss of versatility, but still. 3 damage, that means you only need 7 cards to kill an opponenten (excluding lands) according to the 'Philosophy of Fire'.

I'm certainly going to make something like this and have some fun in a multiplayer game :

4 spark elemental
4 akki avalancers
4 BoK spirit a la mogg fanatic
4 lava spike
4 glacial ray
4 bonesplitter (?)
4 shrapnel blast (fireblast dejavu...)
12 other fast and effective creatures and burn cards

4 darksteel citaldel
4 great furnace
12 mountain

 

[Istanbul]

I don't believe so. Most of the burn that targets creatures is weak and/or overcosted, and cards like Lava Spike are so cheap *because* they can only target players. In addition, Sligh wants its creatures to swing repeatedly (note: I do not consider Ball Lightning a creature). Spark Elemental dies as soon as you use it. And Glacial Ray is an overcosted Shock unless you draw more than one...and even then, two of them are a Lightning Blast that you can split up.

 

[jorael]

Originally posted by Istanbul
I don't believe so. Most of the burn that targets creatures is weak and/or overcosted, and cards like Lava Spike are so cheap *because* they can only target players.

True, but 3 damage for one card is pretty effective. As I said you'd only need 7 cards (in theory).

In addition, Sligh wants its creatures to swing repeatedly

The old sligh, yes, but maybe a more burn-oriented approach will work too. It depends on the other cards of BoK and SoK. Who knows, maybe they print some red cards that fit the strategy better...

 

[Oversoul]

The trouble with a "more burn oriented" sligh deck is that you're already off to a bad start. Lava Spike can't hit blockers at all. Spark Elemental is a bad Lava Spike. Shrapnel Blast has a certain appeal, but it's nothing exciting...

And then in your decklist you have "12 other fast and effective creatures and burn cards." I don't think that such cards are to be found in the Standard cardpool...

Fortunately, there is a format where Sligh is entirely viable (and here is another chance for me to plug it). Legacy has plenty of room for Sligh builds, and it has done pretty well so far...

 

[Ferret]

From what I've seen of the original Sligh deck from days of yore was that it uses a mana curve. It depends on cheap critters and damage along w/ a land drop each turn - thus, it could usually cause death to your opponent in about three or four turns (in the even older days (unlimited and earlier) similar decks could do it in two or three). It was the only deck that actually stood a chance against "Academy" decks durring "Blue Winter"

The main problem is using the name "Sligh" is that older players that remember the old deck will spend time trying to compare new incarnations to the original version and this isn't fair. The game has changed a lot since then. Casting cost to damage ratios have changed and cheaper critters just aren't as effective as they used to be. This is why decks have to evolve to deal w/ these problems. So, if you see a card in the deck that doesn't look like it should be part of the "classic" version it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be in the "modern" version.

To be honest, I think that before anyone decides to attack someone's deck idea, they should try playing the deck first and seeing what it's like - or, better yet, play against the creator of the deck w/ a deck that you believe that can beat it. The author of that article can often be found on MTG Online and I know that he's always up for a game (mostly from all the spankings he's given me ).

-Ferret

"If this thread gets any more civil I might be forced to move it out of Battle Arena "

 

[Istanbul]

Sorry about that, Ferret.

You're a big doo-doo brain, and your feet smell and your nose runs.

Is that better?

 

[Gizmo]

It's not a Sligh deck. Period. It's not even a discussion - your deck is what Slight decks were invented to STOP red decks looking like that.

Honestly.

It's not about 'the evolution of the term Sligh' because at no point has any evolution of the term 'Sligh' looked like that deck, nor will it ever, because it bears no comparison. It's like saying mankind will evolve into apes.

And yes, you're all **** at Magic except for a very few of you, who actually have the first clue of how to even think about Magic correctly.

ISTY you big ****. I read your article WHICH IS WHY I SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED YOUR PATHETIC ATTEMPT TO REDEFINE SLIGH TO WHAT YOU WANTED IT TO BE. I then methodically proved why your deck adhered to NONE of Sligh's tenets (except having mountains in). **** YOU you big ****.

Gah, "can only bash things I'm not intelligent enough to understand". Right tell you what, when youve played in multiple Pts, won money at multiple GPs, designed and co-designed several gloabl archetype decks (countersliver ring any bells?), been a paid internet magic strategy writer, designed decks that win major nternational events, got a 100% record against Budde, or been ranked 3rd in your country (or anywhere close to 2000 at all really)... THEN you can tell me I don't have the intelligence to understand Magic. Until then, shove it up your arse you arrogant ****. You see, I'm not arrogant - I'm just right and I have the credentials and evidence of success that would make me liable to believe that I have an idea what's going on. You just have a big mouth and no ****ing trousers to back them up with.

 

[Istanbul]

Blah blah blah.

"I'm better than you."

Why did you take several paragraphs just to say that you think you're better than everyone on the CPA?

Well, tell you what. If that's true, then you're seriously out-of-place here. And, that being true, LEAVE. Nobody missed you while you were gone. And most of us were glad to see you leave. Go back to your PTQs or whatever, where cheating is the best way to win and getting a temporary DCI ban actually makes people think you're a better player. Leave the fun and the history to the people that actually play Magic and go back to your fragile little ego. Or have you been so obnoxious and intolerable that every other Magic site kicked you out, leaving you nowhere to go? Wouldn't surprise me; there's no reason to believe you'd be any less unpopular there than you are here.

You are UTTERLY arrogant. You are the definition of arrogant. I look in the dictionary under "arrogant" and I see "see Gizmo". You know how I know? I know because you think you're better than everyone here, whereas you actually know very little about us. I know because you feel the need to slam anything you disagree with or don't understand in order to make yourself feel bigger, so that you can continue to support your arrogance. I don't claim to be a lot better than anyone else on the CPA, but I know I'm not a lot worse, either.

You're just like you were before you left, Gizmo; nobody likes you. Nobody wants you here. And we'll all be a lot happier when you leave. Try to find a forum where no one knows you, where you can start anew and enjoy that sweet little grace period between the advent of your arrival and peoples' rapid realization that they can't stand you. You're ignorant and misinformed, but you can't accept that fact, so you feel the need to attack. I can tell by the way you lost your temper during your last post; people like you can't stand having their ignorance displayed for the general populace, because it's more important to you to LOOK right than it is to BE right.

Oh, and by the way. About the profanity?

Yeah, I win.

 

[Reverend Love]

This reminds me of the battle between Spock and Kirk.

Here's the battle music ....adds a little ambience to the flamewar. Now all I need is some popcorn.

Link doesn't seem to be working.. so go ahead and copy paste this into your browser.

http://www.trekconnection.com/sounds/files/mp3/tos/Amok_Time_The_Ritual_Ancient_Battle_2nd_Kroykah_24.m3u

 

[Gizmo]

But the thing is, I AM better than you.

Therefore, I win.

You're unable to put together an argument to defend your points that doesnt stand utterly on your own argument. Everything you say is a self-fulfilling circle that exists without connection to what the rest of the world considers reality.

"My deck is Sligh because I get to define what Sligh is" has been the sole point of 1) your article 2) your attempts to defend your article, and is 3) badly wrong in it's basic assumption.

Call if Fish, just redefine Fish to mean a deck of cheap red burn spells and howling mines. - the effect is the same. You have no logic, no basis to support what you say and so have to endlessly turn around with personal attacks while simultaneously dodging the need to support your theories. Yeah I get personal because I have personal dislike for somebody like you and Oversoul who think themselves better than they are by a factor of ten, but I back that up with methodical structured arguments explaining why I think I am right. Meanwhile your whole argument was (I repeat) "I'm right because I say so". I say I'm right because dozens and dozens of magic theorists and deck designers from the past 8 years have agreed with me, you say you're right because you say so. But I'm the arrogant one.

You're wrong, you're wrong for all the reasons i've given, and you've been unable to offer more than smart alec responses like "Interesting opinion... wrong, but interesting". My god, we really do have a debater on our hands here... or maybe its a masturbator, I get so easily confused.

You can neither defend your deck, nor attack my record as a well-regarded Magic strategy and deck theorist. All you can do is personally attack and obfuscate to avoid the inevitable conclusion that you're mouth has led you into trouble and you're too dumb to back out.

I asked you to prove me wrong - you have yet to do so. I say again... prove me wrong.

 

[Gizmo]

Your mana 'curve':
0cc - 3
1cc - 24
2cc - 9
3cc - 4

Your defense - Sligh isn't about mana curve.
The rest of the world's response - disbelief.

I'll be happy to post a copy of your article to other Magic websites and message boards and see what their response is... you game?

 

[Reverend Love]

So Gizmo what's your actual name. I'd like to see what your rating is simply out of curiosity.

And btw, you're both wrong. It's called faggity burn and only homos play it.

0wnAg3d J00 D0oD$

 

[Istanbul]

Gizmo,

You are no longer worth my time or my effort. Everything from your tendency to attack rather than correct...to your descent into masturbation and profanity...to your failure to realize that the burden of disproving is with you instead of me...even your blatant lies stand as proof that you have utterly lost this argument, even if you refuse to admit it.

You USED to be a contender, but you crapped out. Could that be because you don't know nearly as much as you think you do? Could it be because you have neither the skill nor the intelligence to actually be good at the game, so the best you can do is go to casual Magic forums and flame people for no apparent reason? In fact, could that be the very reason you're here: the fact that you're such a failure in your own eyes that you're taking your self-loathing out on others? People like you are what's wrong with Magic.

Well, you are no longer worth my time or my effort. This is not a concession, this is simply me having better things to do with my time than argue with a nasty little troll.

Feel free to post a reply, but you'll only be talking to yourself.


Reverend Love - Your feet smell and your nose runs. Neener neener neener!

 

[Ferret]

So, Gizmo - you enjoy winning don't you? That's great. We all do. Unfortunately, if you talk this kind of smack when you're playing against me or any of my friends we would kick you out of our group. I know that Isty is kind of arrogant, himself - of course, I've played against his decks (and lost to virtually all of them ) but I know that he's a good sport about it. You seem like the kind of player that would win and then tell your opponent how crappy their deck is.

Simply put, you are the antithesis of what the CPA stands for. I imagine there are forums on more "serious" sites where your attitude would be welcome - even praised - but here you just make us sick. You either need to get over yourself and learn to deal w/ people or just go away.

-Ferret

"It's just a game. Relax"

 

[jorael]

BoK spoiler (from MTG Salvation):

Akki Raider - 1R
Creature - Goblin Warrior (U)
Whenever a land is put into a graveyard from play, Akki Raider gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
2/1

That seems like a good 2-drop for a red slighish deck (whatever it precisely may be...). Combined with Akki Avalancers out of CoK (sac a land give it +2/+0) that looks promising.

Standard also includes shock and volcanic hammer. So some sort of red weenie/burn deck could be created. Perhaps it requires a few more broken red cards to be tournament worthy, but for some casual beatdown I can see this happening.

Ofcourse, this is said by a person who tried to beat multiple opponents with a Mirrodin block constructed Goblins deck (crazed goblin for the win!)

EDIT: another card from the spoiler that might make a new version of a sligh deck possible:

Genju of the Spires - R
Enchant Mountain (U)
2: Enchanted Mountain becomes a 6/1 creature until end of turn. It's still a land.
Whenever enchanted Mountain is put into a graveyard from play, return Genju of the Spires to your hand.
Illus. Joel Thomas
105?/165

PS. I hope nobody detests seeing spoiler cards. Some people prefer to be surprised by the set when it comes out. If that is the case, my apologies....

 

[Ferret]

Wow! Those look like some really strong cards that could make cheap red decks vicious - especially that land enchant. It's like having a ball lightning any turn that you have a mountain and a Sol Ring...

-Ferret

"Or any other source of two mana, I guess..."