Selecting 8th Edition: 7-12-02 Lineup

N

Notepad

Guest
Well, we certain do have an interesting choice for us to make on the cards picked.

===================
Mana Birds + Vine Trellis

VERSUS

Llanowar + Utopia Tree
===================


They split up the greatest little pair of buddies Magic's ever known! I'd much rather vote for Llanwar and Mana Birds to stay together, and ignore those other two wannabees. But, they split them.

I think the vote will be decided on the players' loyalty to either Birds or Elves. The Tree and Vines are just extra crap thrown in. DAMNED PORKBELLY VOTE!!!

So, ignoring porkbellies, which do you think is cooler? Llanowar Elves, or Mana Birds?

I'd vote Birds because I like them, and I know the value of foil birds would be high, but...

I like the long standing history of the little Llanwar Elves, too. They've been like buddies since I first started playing, always there in the main set for me to put in my green decks. Did the birds come to my aide? Nope! They're rare, so they stuck their noses up. The elves, those little helpful dudes, they're nice folk who deserve to stick around.

Damn...voting...hard choice....can barely...choose.....ELVES!

Who knows what type of Aladin's Rings flavor text we'll see. Then there's the artwork. Spined Wurm? *groan* Why don't they just let us pick the art for Eager Cadet...

They both suck in their own ways. And they both have their qualities. Parkison's has a look of Jurassic Park realism that's nice. The wurm actually looks like a monster you'd not want to wander upon. Then again, Critchlow's piece is all fantasy looking.

But fantasy looking isn't enough. That, and I'm tired ot seeing color-coordinated artwork. Does there have to be a dominance of color in a card's artwork just because the game has mana colors? Look at Critchlow's...all frikken green. Parkison's actually has a real nice contrast because of the complete lack of green.

Parkison it is!

How are y'all voting?
 
B

BigBlue

Guest
I couldn't agree more.

I wish they simply had the balls to stop printing Birds on their own. Instead they will decimate green further by eliminating the elves for those combo players and their 5CG.

I voted Elves + Tree too.

Birds have ZERO to do with Green, but they'll still win. That they would threaten the basis of green, llanowar elves, is a travesty. Just as it was when they took out Serra Angel's and Sengir Vampires. Why don't they take away Giant Growth too. I will be amazed if people vote properly and keep the elves over the birds. For MC decks, the tree doesn't hurt them nearly as much as the loss of elves slows down the green player. What is greens 1 drop? The RARE Birds?

Oh, we don't hate green in R&D, we just go out of our way to cripple it at every avenue. Magic is becoming a 3-4 color game with wasted cards in the other colors. Green was supposed to have the best fat, with accelleration to get to it early. Now it's a joke, to drive the point home they should bring back the craw wurm as an uncommon.

I'd rather they stopped printing base sets than continue screwing up what was a good thing. Revised was a "good" base set, everything since has been far too tinkered with by inferior thinkers. Too bad Richard Garfield isn't in charge, he should be.
 
B

BigBlue

Guest
oh yeah, and I almost forgot. Flavor Text for Aladdin's ring. Yippee!

Just what I always wanted to write text for.
 
L

Lotus Mox

Guest
Birds and Elves are about equal in mono green decks, one can attack itself, the other has evasion and works well with green creature pump.

Vine Trellis OTOH is far superior to the tree, because it's nearly unburnable, and can block some creatures if it doesn't get used, it's no Wall of Roots, but it comes pretty close, unlike that PoS that is Utopia Tree.

I'll vote for BoP and Vine Trellis, they are the superior pair, even though I'd really miss the war on all elves :(
 
R

rkoelsch

Guest
I think I will wait a while before putting in my vote. I am not a green mage so I would like to see arguments for each. I do like the fact that they reduced the number of mana producing 1 drops. It shouldn't slow green too much but throw their consistancy off a little maybe enough to let others play. Big Blue you can't be lamenting Greens fate. Now it will have to work like the other colors.
 
J

Jigglypuff

Guest
The Tree is nothing compared to the mighty Birds. Go Birds! And get rid of the crappy new art!!

(- Steve -)
 
B

BigBlue

Guest
You're right, I shouldn't care about Green, I'm a Blue Mage, but I do. Green is my second favorite color.

What I care about is Magic. Green is the color of newbies, and without Elves, what is Green to a newbie? A collection of expensive casting cost creatures which are harder to play.

If you play green, take elves from your deck and replace them with the trellis. Black survives without Ritual, since it has a better piece of the magic pie to begin with. Green, however was weak to begin with, and without a good common 1-drop elf is just plain crappy. If you love birds, replace (or proxy) them with the Tree and tell me how much worse the deck is. a 0/2 tree vs a 0/1 flying bird in the rare slot. Which deck suffers more?
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
It has to be Llanowar Elf.

I realise me campaigning for a card may actually bring in votes for the other team, but I will personally castrate anybody who votes for Birds to stay.

Personally I`m very disappointed to see either leave, but Elves HAVE to stay above Birds.

Elf/Tree gives you more tournament options than Birds/Trellis. Keeping BoPs also slants green to being a color purely for splashing other colors with, as it makes the powerful 1cc drop the splash card, and the mono producer more marginal.

Both Elves and BoPs would rate in my top-5 1cc creatures ever printed, and it`s sad to see either go. But Keebler Elves win out for me.

VOTE ELF!
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
Man, this vote SUCKS DONKEY.

To make this vote, I'm going to examine each card on its own benefits, then make a decision.

BIRDS OF PARADISE
Casting Cost: G
P/T: 0/1
Abilities: Flying, T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool

vs.

UTOPIA TREE
Casting Cost: 1G
P/T: 0/2
Abilities: T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool

Analysis:
Well, Birds obviously come out ahead in terms of casting cost. And flying is nice, but it's usually pointless on a 0/1 mana creature.
Utopia Tree has an extra point of toughness, but the difference between 1 toughness and 2 toughness is academic except in combat, which isn't where you want your mana producers to be.

So, with the toughness difference and flying being mostly pointless, the winner is:
Birds of Paradise!

Now for the second matchup:

VINE TRELLIS
Casting Cost: 1G
P/T: 0/4
Abilities: T: Add G to your mana pool

vs.

LLANOWAR ELVES
Casting cost: G
P/T: 1/1
Abilities: T: Add G to your mana pool

Analysis:
Well, Llanowar Elves come out ahead in power and in casting cost.
But Vine Trellis can block and LIVE a lot, which can't be underestimated in the early game...and, six turns into a game, I know which one I'd rather have.
I'd have to say that, simply because of its ability to survive combat, the winner is:
Vine Trellis!

Of course, that brings us to the problem...are Birds and Trellis TOO good together? Birds are a 1-CC flyer, even if they're 0/1 on their own, and we established back in the day that green was not the flying color. And does green really need a creature that can both be a GOOD early blocker *and* tap for mana?

Birds and Trellis may be too good...but on the same token, Tree and Elves seem kinda weak. I must admit, though, that the difference between Birds & Elves and Tree & Elves is very small...one mana, no flying, and an extra point of toughness.

Man, this is a TOUGH decision. Birds/Trellis are more powerful, but Tree/Elves are more balanced. I guess it all comes down to whether I want to see Vine Trellis return in an environment like this...
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
I guess my ultimate decision came down to what format I play. I'm a big fan of Limited, and I thought to myself, which card would I most like to see in my rare slot, Birds or Tree? (Tree) Which card would I most like to see in a common slot? (Trellis) But which one would be the most balanced in a common slot for green, which already has plenty of beef? (Elves)

Tree-Elves for me. But by the NARROWEST of margins.
 
R

RabidKimba

Guest
I voted for birds, mainly because I can't unload my 5 off to people who dont read mtg.com while on vacation... ;)
 
N

Notepad

Guest
A secondary factor to think about is beatdown. The only creature worth anything to a beatdown deck is the Llanwar dudes. The others are worthless for attacking, and only Trellis is a good blocker.

So, let's examine a two- or mono-colored beatdown "good drop".

ELVES:
Turn One: Forest, Elves
Turn Two: Begin with two mana. Put down Forest and cast up to three elves. Either way, capable of ending turn with up to six mana on the board, or cast a three mana beatstick on turn two.
Turn Three: Begin with anywhere from 3-6 mana available.

VINES:
Turn One: Drop land, sit around like a dope. Or, cast a one mana beatstick.
Turn Two: Finally cast Trellis. You can play a land. Swing at opponent for a little damage. Nothing at all like the elves over there, with a big creature already out or a lot of mana. End turn with 3 mana at your disposal. Possibly cast another one mana beatstick.
Turn Three: Begin turn with only 3 mana at your disposal, and only up to 2 little weenies on your side.

Personally, as a fan of green, I like the scenario prompted by the elves a lot better. ;)
 
P

Purple_jester

Guest
I've been to other sites debating the issue, and from what I've seen, it's becoming a war between two factions, with a few exceptions.

We've got the casual group who wants the elves to remain a viable 1-drop for green without spending the money to buy a BOP. In addition to cost, everyone on this side seems to agree that they'd rather drop an elf in round 1 than a wacky Wild Growth or 1-cc beatstick (ex. Rootwalla).

Then, we have the pro group who wants their BOP's to remain legal, fueling another 2 years of efficient multi-color decks with green supplementing the mana base. Arguments here also revolve around defense, with the 0/1 flying Birds making excellent emergency defenders, and with the 0/4 Vine Trellis providing needed toughness against marauding elephant tokens, Rootwallas and Brushoppers.

On this case, I'll have to agree with Giz on his opinion that keeping the elves will give added emphasis on the green component of multi-color decks. Besides, many green decks nowadays DON'T use BOP's. This will give the market a chance to boost up the Trees, and will give newer players a chance to buy their own Birds.

I myself love the Trellis. But getting them isn't worth losing my favored Elves. I've got 2 Birds myself, but I've never used them, except in my Equilluren deck. I'll probably end up voting for the Elves, but please fix the art!
 
T

theorgg

Guest
I'll come out on my opinion on the one-drops right here.

I've wished for the Bop, however we all love them, for the fairness of green and of magic, to be grabbed by a giant, then brutally <Censor'd for content, as well as the pain inflicted... actually, the beak might hurt the giant more that it hurts the bird... if the fire killed it right away, and it wasn't in pain while flaiming and being hurdling through trees...>.

Bird has never been in flavor... and neither is the tree.

Green needs a "bird replacement" that costs G, and T: add G. T, pay one/take a damage: Add W,U,B, or R. Green shouldn't give other colors for free-- not at a low cost.

As for the Trellis, this isn't going to be Masques block. Noone will draft with the basic set after three months, and all it'll do is slow donw the fun games at home with the beginners.

Now, if it had been a wall of wood that taps for a green... well... I would think about it.

But I think the tree takes care of that.

My choice for one-mana guy is Llanowar over bird. Tree is just a little topping.


As for the Aladdin's Ring flavor text, we ALL know the REAL flavor text. Say it with me now, as you've said it each friggin time you've cast Laddie's Ring:

THIS is my BOOMSTICK!
Click to expand...
Personally, I submitted crappy flavor text, but worded well... or so I hope.
 
S

Sammy Dead-O

Guest
For the first time since I began playing Magic (Masques), there's the prospect of a shift in the game that would actually sadden me a bit. Sure, with the rotation of sets there's gonna be some disappointment over things you wanted to accomplish with cards that you won't be able to anymore, but I genuinely hate the thought of Llanowar Elves leaving the base set.

I haven't been playing as long as a lot of you, but it's luckily long enough that my intro to the Elves had the striking Anson Maddocks art...and something about them connected with me from the start.

Maybe it was just the first card or creature or elf I saw. Maybe it is that green is the newbie color. Maybe it's that mana acceleration was one of my first sub-themes to build a deck around. Whatever it is, I'd go so far as to say that if someone told me to imagine the quintessential Magic card in my mind, it'd be the lawnmowers. I certainly think I view them as green's mascot over any fatty that tries to claim the title.

Don't get me wrong...the birds are cool. I've never owned any, but I always kinda figured I would someday, and that I'd feel really good about it (I did get to play with them in that Brian Selden Worlds deck). But green needs the Elves.

Oh yeah, I also like Vine Trellis a lot. I even use it in my Secret Force-ish deck (hey, we don't all have 4 Wall of Roots). But they don't come close to that first-turn 1/1 Llanowar.

Utopia Tree will thank you. Elvish Champion will thank you. And I will thank you. Please vote for the Elves.

...

And if they lose, here's to wishing for a Fyndhorn reprint in Bacon.
 
T

Thallid Ice Cream Man

Guest
I've seen plenty of people argue about how much 8th will suck, and I'm not sure whether I disagree with them...
but let's keep in mind one of the set's purposes.
R&D has explained for years that these sets are designed to be good for newer players...
It's much more important for them to be able to get a common one drop green mana accelerator than for them to use yet again an expensive, rare one drop mana accelerator. To make the set actually good for something it's important to reprint the elves.

VOTE ELF
(I prefered the original Mark Poole Birds art anyway...)

...

As for the ring, I submitted something on the order of this:
"The dignity and the pleas of the weak house themselves in this ring, that they may brand the guilty."
Maybe it's not in flavor with a card that is usually activated first on turn nine, but neither is the concept of it being Alladin's Ring anyway.

Spined Wurm: Let's vote for the older art just to send them a message... I think they picked this card because they assumed people might vote for the newer art, so that they could defend their practice of redoing the art so often.
 
N

Notepad

Guest
You mentioned a good point there. Why in the heck does Aladin's Ring do damage? I never thought of Aladin as a guy who'd go around with a ring-sized shotgun. That thing could kill a normal Kavu in one hit... what the heck was Aladin thinking? Maybe he likes to go hunting...

Then again, why do they keep it around? Even when I was a newbie I never thought it was a good card and laughed when people used it. They'd claim to have one or two in their decks, being able to blow my creatures away, and I'd just assume I was safe because those things would never hit me or my creatures. 100% of the time, I was right.
 
P

Purple_jester

Guest
R&D keeps the ring around due to necessity.

They think, "Hmm. We need an artifact that can inflict colorless damage. That way, some decks can work their way around protection and other similar defenses."

"But what artifact? Cursed Scroll is too unbalancing, especially now when it's so easy to empty your hand to 1 card."

"How about Aeolipile? It's good for only 1 use."

"But it's still cheap. We don't want a deck that fast decks can abuse."

"You're right. Why don't we look for an artifact that, say, inflicts 3 or 4 damage intead of 2..."

"...and use that as an excuse to quadruple the mana cost to 4 instead of 1..."

"...and make sure it's non-conditional, so we can double that cost further to 8..."

"Hey, guys! That sounds a lot like Aladdin's Ring!"

"Alright! Aladdin's Ring it is then. If players complain, we can always say that it's good for Limited."

-----

Aren't set designers funny that way? :)

Nevertheless, it IS a fun card in the right deck. I had a non-Tinker all artifact deck with Mishra's Workshop and Urza Lands, and the Ring fit in there just fine.

But in all the books I've read, I've never noticed the Genie of The Ring to have such a bad temper. Maybe it's something he ate. A more correct Ring would rescue your creatures or you from danger.
 
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